EPTSome things to know.
I have been working on this build order / style of mech since about February, this is an evolved version of my previous guides / replays. The most up to date way on how I play TvP mech.
You can see the previous build order here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398500
my new and improved version of mech has had several Top 30 GM's on NA / EU help me build through advice or facing them. I have played hundreds of hours and gone through even more watching replays, I hope you enjoy the fruits of my labor!
The first thing I want to cover is the build order.
(build order)
Replay: http://drop.sc/340183
10 depo
12 barracks
15 gas
15 orbital
17 depo
1-3 marines, reactor
first 400 minerals CC
first 100 gas factory.
When factory finishes get 1 refinery 1 armory, 1 widow mine.
After 1 widow mine get a supply depo and a tech lab on the factory.
React as scouted.
Video annotations:
Rally point on 9 Supply to build your supply depo at the wall on time.
You always want your barracks in a position that if you had to make bunkers infront of it, you only need a few to protect your Command center. With this positioning I can easily defend 1 gas and all my buildings with 3 bunkers split up infront of my buildings. With the exception of my frontal supply depo. A great defense for blink stalkers.
14 supply, rally your next worker to the gas geyser. Have another SCV qued up and you will be taking your gas at 15 supply right away. use the barracks scv and 1 scv from the command center to take this geyser.
Scout anytime after your gas geyser and barracks are already producing. Produce 1-3 marines depending on what you scout and how safe you feel before the reactor. I prefer to make 2-3 by default as they help stop a zealot.
Command center at 400 minerals. This will be delayed or faster by your reactor timing. remember that if you get a reactor before your second marine. You are vulnerable to chrono zealot however stronger against zealot stalker mothership core.
Your first 100 gas after the reactor, make a factory.
Don't forget this third supply depo right after or before you make your 2 marines at a time. Any supply depo after your first should go behind your mineral line, to help prevent cheeses from sniping them.
When your factory finishes take a second gas and an armory.
With your first widow mine ready you should be starting another supply depo and then a techlab. We want 1 widow mine to stop oracles and the ability to get siege tanks right after. This makes it so we can get enough to stop blink stalkers. Which usually hits at the 8 minute mark.
If you haven't scouted blink stalkers or a heavy gateway all in with proxy immortals. Get widow mines and the burrowing claws. We can use these defensively and aggressively vs stargate and only gateway play.
Once you have drilling claws on the way drop a starport. This times out that you can have your medivac flying to his base with 4 widow mines and have drilling claws finish on the way. Take your expansion when comfortable in doing so.
Make sure to have scans at 7:30 for DT's drop an engineering bay around 7:30, once they finish feel free to mule again. The build becomes scout dependant from here. However your focus is to get to 3-4 factories 1 barracks getting ghosts and 1 starport with tech lab for medivacs for drops, vikings for collosai or ravens.
make sure you reach 3 bases shortly after dropping your production. You want the gas to be able to support your high tech units. Just like a protoss is limited to collosai or storm on 2 base, you cannot get raven and ghost until you are at 3.
Defending all ins:
Defending any all in that comes in through your front is relatively easy, all you have to do is drop a bunker or two and crank out a siege tank after your first widow mine while delaying your drilling claws until after you are safe. Then simply continue with the build. The bunker doesn't have to be at your ramp, it can be 5 yards away so that most things can't fire on it. Even 6 or 7 works since then any unit that comes up the ramp will then be hit with tanks and will funnel through bunkers to get there. Bunkers that can only be reached through the high ground.
Oracles: Your first widow mine should always go in your mineral line, once you scout stargate just drop an earlier engineering bay and drop 1 turret in each mineral line. Then continue with your normal build, try to avoid any pheonix he might make when you are dropping.
Dark templar: Save your scans starting 7:00, make sure you have 1 nearly 2 by the 7:30 mark. Once your ebay is finished feel free to spend some and always leave 1 until you have proper dark templar defense like a turret at your front.
Blink stalker: Make sure you have proper building placement in every game, you want your production facilities near your main, defending 1 gas and away from the edges. It allows for easier bunker placements like the pictures below. Producing 2 marines at a time and 1 siege tank you'll be able to take your expo in no time.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3oBm03f.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jUv5P9h.jpg)
Production facility goals
4-7 factories, 1-3 barracks, 1-3 starports. It all depends on your economy.
Don't be afraid to grab your third with proper bunker positoning.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qruTeUh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lg9u7Nm.jpg)
Ideal composition: Thor / raven / ghost / X [X?] Nothing changes on thor ghost raven, no matter what you want them. If there is an air army you add viking and if there is a ground army you add hellbats. You can however use widow mines for either one depending on if you snipe their AOE.
The rest of the things to know are my little rules. I follow these rules down to a T and very rarely change them. They are rules i've developed playing hundreds of games of mech at GM level. I have faced many top 16 GMs, ranging to high masters the last few months and the build before you has been my 1 strategy i've focused on perfecting. Many players knew what they were facing and I practice this build many times a day against team mates. I haven't found anything that hard counters this build or can't be stopped.
1) Scout blink? Get an engineering bay after your 3 bunkers and save a scan or two.
2) When dropping against pheonix try to stay near edges where you can drop, this allows you to drop your units while moving and burrow fast to kill pheonix. It isn't an auto loss of everything inside if he finds your dropship.
3) The less AOE (collosai / templar) the stronger widow mines are.
4) You can continue widow mine production and do a 15 minute timing attack if you have the counter to his army. Vikings / ghosts.
5) Always have a buffer for your siege tanks.
6) The closer to 200 army you are the better thors are over siege tanks.
7) Never go above 170 supply without scanning his army and counter comping appropriately.
8) Your goal is 15 ravens, 15 ghosts and the rest thor + filler units.
9) The less zealots the more thors.
10) The more zealots the more hellbats
11) have a third? Drop a turret ring in your main.
12) Sensor tower near your main defense line, even on 2 base.
13) Emp'ing immortals is more important then Emp'ing high templar when you have a ground army.
14) Emp'ing high templar is more important then Emp'ing any other unit when you have an air army.
15) The longer the game goes on the more missile turrets you add. You don't want anything reaching your production.
16) Planetary fortresses are great ways to close off attack paths with missile turrets.
17) Past your 3rd base you may want to use building armor + 2 planetaries depending on the distance from your main to your new expo.
18) no less then 2 turrets at each base
19) If zealot heavy upgrade armor first.
20) if scouting tempest favor viking upgrades
21) If they have an air army and no aoe mass widow mine thor viking
22) Always strive to your 15 / 15 raven ghost army.
23) You don't have to have even half his bases as long as you are maxed and have an income.
24) Always trade efficiently
25) Any unit can be dropped and harass
26) Widow mines gives less warning then hellbats on dropping.
27) Use Shift + D to drop widow mines while flying over and burrowing mines when flying right to left or from bottem to top.
28) When flying left to right or top to bottom use Control + E on the first widow mine that drops each time you drop another using the shift D method. This will keep targeting all widow mines in the area and burrowing them.
29) When using the raven only use 1-2 point defense drones at a time, be patient so he you don't lose all your energy if he retreats.
30) Once you snipe the templar (or emp) the mass tempests are incredibly weak to any anti air that reaches them since you can freely point defense drone and engage without needing to split or pull away in fear of storm.
31) Never hunter seeker tempest.
32) Widow mines are best against voidrays.
33) Thors should use splash mode against any air unit but the tempest or collosai
34) If the opponent can't kill the widow mines before they drop, feel free to drop his army.
35) It can never hurt to have 1 nuke available.
36) The farther spaced out you are the more sensor towers you need.
37) a busy protoss has a hard time stopping sensor towers being built around the map. Use this right before you engage to easily see counter attacks or retreat paths.
38) It's best to prevent blink stalker from moving past widow mines then to chase them with widow mines.
39) Never lose your patience as mech, you will most likely die the moment you do.
40) The better your economy, the more scvs you must lose through repairing your main army or sacrificing.
41) Orbitals are more important then a 5th base as long as you are mining from 6 gas geysers.
42) Don't bother splitting the map, only attack where you can easily defend or plan to attack.
43) a floating orbital and dropping mules in random locations is always usefull.
44) have raven out of main control group and following thors.
45) With critical viking counts make sure they follow a thor with the raven. You don't want them flying ahead into storm. Only engage them through PDD and snipe if you can.
46) All though you don't need to harass to win, it sure as hell helps a lot when you do.
47) harass is viable at any stage of the game.
48) If he has voidray and tempest make sure to have 5 thors in AOE mode.
49) If he doesn't have any AOE or blink and you have widow mines, you are currently ahead.
50) If he has little anti air before an attack, try to snipe the collosai before the fight.
51) Always knew where and what his army is.
52) always be ready for a fight to engage you, before it engages you. It will make you a shit ton stronger.
53) Always have thors when fighting tempest, a ground remax is always possible.
54) Unless you are sure you can win the game with your push, always re treat to defend counter attacks that need your main army.
Frequent stream questions:
Why drilling claws so early?
In the early phase drilling claws are really hard to stop if you can kill observers, without AOE they are the most powerful unit against protoss that aren't going mass zealot. You also have the claws earlier allowing faster harass drops with less time to respond increasing it's potency. You have drilling claws already so if you scout an air transition you can crank those bastards out and still be useful. You can do many mid game timing attacks with widow mines as long as you have vikings to kill his collosai or obs and ghost to kill his templar. (only needed to advance, if you're split up and burrowed templar aren't really useful to attack into defended positions.
Aren't immortals a hard counter?
No, a thor trades equal to an immortal and you can produce more. Once the immortals shields are gone they are incredibly vulnerable. Widow mines, hunter seeker, emp and hellbats are pretty good at removing the shields. EMP being the best of course.
Isn't tempest a hard counter?
Nah, ravens stop them hard core. As long as you have enough anti air and can snipe his templar you should always win the fight. The truth is that it comes down to a micro battle and the superior player will win. It is slightly harder for the terran however since he has to use ravens, ghosts and his army compared to tempest and templar. However since you build these units early on you can already have a critical mass and exploit any ground to air transitions and just win the game.
Why ravens and ghosts?
The power of the mech army has always been heavy splash through siege tanks and space control. We're taking that theory and incorporating it into mass EMP which is disastrous against protoss and combined with point defense drone against projectiles or hunter seeker againt void rays, immortals, clumped up units you already have a lot of splash that is just energy. Making you very effective, imagine 2 different forms of high templar. Combine this with the raw power and survivability that mech has through HP and armor.
You mentioned timing attacks with widow mines?
It's very simple, if you can kill the observer through scans + viking or raven + viking, he simply can't move where widow mines are. Not to mention that if he can't kill them before they burrow under his army or keep them away. He just loses everything. There are a few ways to exploit that however that is for another guide and at another time. You'll see me use this often on yotuube or stream though.
Pro players are saying mech isn't viable?
It has lots of potential and the raven, ghost and widow mine are the key to it. In reality it hasn't been explored nearly as much as bio since WOL and hots just has so much more to offer to the mech Terran. I can't prove it works at GSL level because well I am not GSL level. I have proven it works in grandmaster though, this means anyone grandmaster and below could still use this strategy to win games. You've seen a few terrans pull out a mech strategy and win which means it is possible in some form. I'm simply trying to kick it up a notch
The truth is that the lower of a league you are, the better mech is for you. Until players start figuring out how to not engage your army you will always be stronger. This doesn't even come until master league players for a lot of people. You could easily get to masters using this strategy. It's just easier to control if you don't have to deal with constant harass. Sure it gets to be a lot harder in high masters / GM but it's still really hard to pick apart a well defended mech Terran.
Do you use this strategy every TvP?
Pretty much, I have a few more I can pull out that I am tinkering with but this is my baby. I've played this for hours to hours, to days, to weeks against the same friends practicing every which way to break me. None of them can find a way that is stable. There simply is no hard counter that I have found. You could lose because of a few mistakes building up but there isn't a hard counter to my knowledge.
Have any replays to share with us?
Sure, I got some GM and high master ones. I just played, I'll share the last 5 or so. Pick them straight out of my recent matches. I don't think i've lost a tvp in a few days so I am pretty sure they are all wins. Not trying to cocky or ego or anything. Just saying that I am very confident in my TvP at the moment over the other races.
What is your ultimate army that you strive for?
15 ghosts, 15 raven, and 5-10 thors. Sprinkle in hellbats for gateway units, vikings for air or widow mine for either as long as he isn't zealot heavy. The only thing that really changes is the buffer. Everything else you get the same past the first 4-5 tanks for defense.
Why not mass siege tank, does it not work?
It works, it just isn't as strong or robust or mobile. All though I do use mass siege tanks from time to time for aesthetics it's just not as powerful.
How come there is no mention of Carriers?
I guess I forgot about that unit, I never have a problem against them thors splashing them, ghosts hitting them and vikings / mines supporting, carriers aren't really a problem unless he gets a shit ton of them.
in fact once you see a carrier transition you can just make a turret / army push. Interceptors actually take a while to build and the moment his carriers lose momentum it's a full on re treat for him. Since you end up getting building armor and range anyway turrets are pretty handy at killing interceptors. Minerals are very rarely a problem in mech.
So basically my question is what do you do against the lategame composition of mostly carrier, just a few voidray/tempest and some immortals and possibly templar. I feel it's pretty easy to transition into this as protoss and I don't think carriers have a good answer for T. Vikings and thors do 'ok' but I feel it's pretty easy for P to force a nearly even trade with this and then just win with the remax. Especially since T is forced into lot's of starports which are useless if P goes for a ground remax.
Classic mistakes P seem to make agianst mech is going for a timing to try and kill them (this rarely works), focussing too much on zealot/archon (sucks because of the high zealot count being dominated by hellbats) and going too tempest focussed imo (easily countered by PDD).
I don't need to deviate my composition at all for this army, in fact I spend the whole game building the units that crush this. voidray intercepts and high templar are very weak to thor / ghost, PDD for tempests. Immortals are nice but you can just fill in some mines or hellbats as a buffer, since they usually stack under voidrays and carriers the emps almost always hit his whole army, voidrays and carriers have a slow acceleration. On top of this you can always force a retreat with a nuke.
As carriers if you are forced to retreat your interceptors still take damage. If you drop a nuke everytime you engage you will whittle down his interceptors relatively fast. Don't forget hunter seeker as well. You can use emp / hunter seeker on immortals and you will have plenty since you build them really early on. Hell you will usually have 4-5 tanks as well from your mid game to only hit the immortals who are emp'd. They will drop fast.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/340226
http://drop.sc/340227
http://drop.sc/340228
http://drop.sc/339353
http://drop.sc/340229
http://drop.sc/340230
http://drop.sc/340212
6.5.213 replay:
http://drop.sc/340363
http://drop.sc/340364
Twitter: @hfmario
Youtube: /sc2yosho
Twitch: /HTOMario
http://echogaming.eu/
Redit post: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1forjx/back_to_aiur_a_tvp_mech_production/
