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Hey HTOMario I really like this guide , I think your awesome and I really want to learn Mech but I have no idea how to in tvz .
I have my tvt and tvp now sorted due to this guide (I use forgg's mech style in tvt) But do you think mech in tvz is still as viable in hots as it was in wol and can you also give a good guide for it as I usually do a double factory hellion harass into bio but I think I mey be able to change the bo to do mech  so if you could give me a ood guide or basis on what to do as I have my opener sorted just no idea what to do .
Edit:in which matchup do you think mech is least viable ?
also do you think this can be as viable as bio at a pro and high ladder level ?
also what about using hellions siege tanks an vikings in tvz ? (would it be an effective comp as it is insanely fast and bfh hellions destroy if they get a decent surround )
The unit comp would be ALOT of hellion a few siege tanks vikings constantly being pumped out from 1/2 starports and 2/3 ravens.
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sorry my english is very bad
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Netherlands1385 Posts
Hi Mario, it has been a while since the opening post. Have you made certain alternations to your builds in the meanwhile?
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Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
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On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines?
I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it.
In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions.
However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes:
1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game.
2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well.
These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well.
Mine/Tank
Colossus/Stalker
HT/Zealot
Mass immortals
Mass stalkers
Mine/Thor
Large Protoss air fleet
Mass Archon
Few Stalkers
As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
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On October 19 2014 18:45 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines? I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it. In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions. However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well. These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well. Mine/TankColossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers Mine/ThorLarge Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
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On October 19 2014 20:45 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 18:45 MockHamill wrote:On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines? I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it. In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions. However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well. These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well. Mine/TankColossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers Mine/ThorLarge Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game. Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find.
The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units.
The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition.
The best solution is to kill him before he gets there.
The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time.
The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
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On October 19 2014 22:22 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 20:45 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 19 2014 18:45 MockHamill wrote:On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines? I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it. In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions. However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well. These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well. Mine/TankColossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers Mine/ThorLarge Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game. Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find. The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units. The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition. The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
Ok thank you I will try that. Do you build many Ravens against carrier based armies or are HSM useless? Also, do you build ghosts or are they not necessary due to mines?
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On October 19 2014 23:45 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 22:22 MockHamill wrote:On October 19 2014 20:45 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 19 2014 18:45 MockHamill wrote:On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines? I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it. In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions. However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well. These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well. Mine/TankColossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers Mine/ThorLarge Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game. Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find. The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units. The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition. The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm. Ok thank you I will try that. Do you build many Ravens against carrier based armies or are HSM useless? Also, do you build ghosts or are they not necessary due to mines?
Ravens are close to useless against Carrier based armies so I build very few in those situations. Ghosts do not synergize at all win the Mine/Tank play style since you need to be aggressive and trade a lot and Ghosts cost too much and slows down your aggression. Plus mines takes care of shields and Tanks and Hellions take care of HT.
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On October 19 2014 18:45 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines? I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it. In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions. However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well. These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well. Mine/TankColossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers Mine/ThorLarge Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game.
Thank you for the explanation!
However, I did already know that Thors were the better choice against air. My question was directed more at their anti-ground capabilities, if the same logic about Thors being superior applies with a Mine-heavy composition as it applies with Ghost/Raven, or if the synergistic aspects of Tanks and Mines overshadow that.
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On October 19 2014 22:22 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 20:45 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 19 2014 18:45 MockHamill wrote:On October 18 2014 13:44 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Hey, Mario, awesome guide! Still relevant I believe to the current game :-)
One question. Using the same logic you use for Thors > Tanks with this, would a Thor/Mine style possibly be more effective than the Tank/Mine style you've recently been doing more of lately? Or does the splash and burst of Tanks, plus the range of them combined with the lightning shield aspect of Widow Mines make still make Tank/Mine superior if you're going for a composition with lots of Mines? I am not Mario but since I play the Mine/Tank style in every TvP this is my take on it. In my experience it best not to be dogmatic about the composition. Initially I always go for Mine/Tank plus a few Vikings and Hellions since those synergize well. Mine/Tank are also really good against Colossus/Stalker based compositions. However if you do not manage to cripple Protoss in early or midgame they often transition into air. In those cases there are two possible outcomes: 1. You manage to hit them right when they transition to air and can kill them with mines alone. A few Carriers or Tempest with some ground support does nothing against mass mine so you win the game. 2. They manage to get a large Tempest count with some ground support. In that case Tanks becomes almost obsolete and you need Raven/Thor/Viking/Hellion/Mine to fight them. You need the Ravens for pdd, Hellions to kill HTs and soak up shots while you run your Mines forward and Thor/Viking to kill the Tempest. Vikings are better vs Tempest but since they are vulnerable to storm it is better to have Thors as well. These are my personal rules for when to go Mine/Tank and when to go Mine/Thor deepening on my opponents composition. I always use some Vikings to snipe Observers and Hellions to soak up some damage or scout ahead as well. Mine/TankColossus/Stalker HT/Zealot Mass immortals Mass stalkers Mine/ThorLarge Protoss air fleet Mass Archon Few Stalkers As always it is better to kill Protoss before late game. Thanks for that guide. How do you deal with ultra late game mass carrier/immortal/HT compositions? Mario didnt give a good answer I think and I cannot seem to beat a Protoss at that stage. The answer for mass tempest is obviously mass raven but mass carrier is much harder to deal with i find. The key to playing the Mine/Tank style is to understand that Mines are cost efficient but not supply efficient. You need to trade often since Protoss is simply more supply efficient if you let him max out on high gas units. The immortals can basically be ignored since you cannot use Tanks or Thors against mass Carrier/HT/Immortals. If you can kill the Carriers and HT you will win after remax, if not are dead anyway. So the problem is the Carrier/HT part of the composition. The best solution is to kill him before he gets there. The second best solution is to trade often so he can never have more than 4-5 Carriers at a time. The third best solution is bum rush mass mines under/close to his Carriers, burrow the mines and blow up all the interceptors. Then use hellions to kill his HTs and focus down his Carriers with the Vikings while dodging storm.
I question the statement that Thors cannot be used against that composition, as Mario uses them better than Tanks against Immortals, and I've seen him use Thors to combat Interceptors while Mines run under Carriers and Vikings provide general support and clean-up. Thors are pretty great against Interceptors and laugh at High Templar. I don't doubt that your options work, but I'm not convinced that Thors are a bad choice against the composition, depending on which unit the opponent is heavy on.
I also wouldn't go so far as to say Ravens are useless. If you can get many Seekers off onto the slow Carriers, they can be devastating. If nothing else, it forces them to retreat and allows for more Interceptor kills. I don't know if it's better than other options, though. I say this mostly because it's possible you might already have some Ravens, seeing Stargate play.
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Is this strat still viable? Any replays of the new maps?
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EPT
