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Maybe its just me, but I make vikings against anything zerg does. Start by making one soon after your starport finishes (after whatever medivacs or banshees you use for harass), go hunt overlords and keep growing that vikings count afterwards.
When you think about it, there's really no threatening zerg timings after roach/bane all in where vikings wouldn't be of help. Against a rush to vipers they can zone them out and potentially snipe one or two, essential to have. Against corruptor/BL, its a no brainer. Against swarm hosts you use them to protect your ravens/banshees. Against mutas I find vikings are very underrated, they are your best support for turrets against really harass-heavy players and a combination of thors and mutas is a LOT more effective against mass muta as they can't just magic box as easily. The only mistake you can make is building a few too vikings and losing to some mass roach shenanigans, but that really shouldn't happen to a careful player.
Also if you aren't sure of your opponents unit comp, the last thing you want to do is blindly attack! Just send out scouting hellions, use scans and whatever. Oftentimes its just better to secure a 4th base and start building up your raven count at this point. Mech is all about that patience.
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Question: what do you do when the zerg has swarmhosts? I feel like I am on a clock in TvZ because I can never attack via ground if the zerg has a certain critical mass of swarmhosts and by the time I teched to air he can fill the entire area in front of my base with spores...
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If they get up a Spore wall alongside their Swarm Hosts you need a Raven/Tank/Viking combo. You move the Tanks forward covered by PDDs and slowly gain ground, taking out Spores along the way. The Vikings are there to help keep Vipers back and make sure Corruptors don't just walk in and kill all the Ravens. And of course, wherever the opportunity prevents, Seeker the Swarm Hosts (sometimes you can just do this to every SH straight up because they have bad Spore positioning).
You also want to remember that he has a tonne of supply commited to this and he probably has a fair big of tunnel vision. So sending out Hellbats, or any Thors you might have, or even just a Raven/Auto-turret squad to snipe bases can help a lot.
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I can't believe how bad Maru played his openings in WCS vs Dear. However mid to late was very good. Too late bunker got punished every single game.
I am writing this here because it applies for either mech or bio. Since it is for the first marines that you get before choosing tech route.
Further on. How do you guys treat an offensive MSC + stalker + zealot play? (consider the P is expanding behind it and is not an all in)
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On October 28 2013 07:54 JustPassingBy wrote:
Question: what do you do when the zerg has swarmhosts? I feel like I am on a clock in TvZ because I can never attack via ground if the zerg has a certain critical mass of swarmhosts and by the time I teched to air he can fill the entire area in front of my base with spores...
You should have triple starport (1 reactor 2 techlab) up once you scout the swarmhost play, or alternatively roughly when you are certain the zerg is on hive tech. Hopefully you are on 3, preferrably 4 bases yourself. Just make raven/viking to support your tanks, meanwhile drop hellbats/thors to his remote bases. Assuming the zerg doesn't have a huge economic lead its very possible to rip them apart this way, getting all those spores isn't exactly cheap. Once you have him distracted on other fronts its possible to advance with your tanks or just with raven/viking, throw down 1-2 PDDs to protect yourself from the spores and then just spam seekers everywhere. If he unburrows and runs, take this opportunity to move your tanks forward. On a map with more than 1 attack path (basically anything that isn't Akilon) its perfectly possible to set up flanks too.
Basically do everything you can to abuse his immobility while using tank/viking/raven as your brute force army.
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On October 28 2013 20:41 llIH wrote:
I can't believe how bad Maru played his openings in WCS vs Dear. However mid to late was very good. Too late bunker got punished every single game.
I am writing this here because it applies for either mech or bio. Since it is for the first marines that you get before choosing tech route.
Further on. How do you guys treat an offensive MSC + stalker + zealot play? (consider the P is expanding behind it and is not an all in)
Imo one of the things protoss don't do nearly enough, considering how much of a pita it is to hold off if your bunker isn't up in time, and even if it is there is still enough damage to do for low cost.
I personally just always ebay block the toss (unless I get screwed by the random number generator on 4p maps). Then he at least has to make a choice: either destroy the block first, or accept that your expansion is alot later.
On October 29 2013 07:48 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 07:54 JustPassingBy wrote:
Question: what do you do when the zerg has swarmhosts? I feel like I am on a clock in TvZ because I can never attack via ground if the zerg has a certain critical mass of swarmhosts and by the time I teched to air he can fill the entire area in front of my base with spores... You should have triple starport (1 reactor 2 techlab) up once you scout the swarmhost play, or alternatively roughly when you are certain the zerg is on hive tech. Hopefully you are on 3, preferrably 4 bases yourself. Just make raven/viking to support your tanks, meanwhile drop hellbats/thors to his remote bases. Assuming the zerg doesn't have a huge economic lead its very possible to rip them apart this way, getting all those spores isn't exactly cheap. Once you have him distracted on other fronts its possible to advance with your tanks or just with raven/viking, throw down 1-2 PDDs to protect yourself from the spores and then just spam seekers everywhere. If he unburrows and runs, take this opportunity to move your tanks forward. On a map with more than 1 attack path (basically anything that isn't Akilon) its perfectly possible to set up flanks too. Basically do everything you can to abuse his immobility while using tank/viking/raven as your brute force army.
Problem is that swarmhosts are way more mobile than a mech army. You can spawn locusts, unburrow, move, reburrow and spawn a next wave. Of course when they really have setup spores it isn't that easy, but in general thats why you can only move very slowly against swarmhosts, mech isn't fast enough to kill them until they are cornered.
And if they have around 10 mutas they can intercept any drop, attempt at clearing out creep with hellions, and since you also cannot hunt down there overlords, they should be able to intercept pretty much everything. Sure you can try to really make a viking army, but then you just outright die to ultralisks.
@Val_, much appreciated, will especially check the TvZs out, since I still pretty much can't win that.
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Ehh, all those things are hard to deal with in the hands of a good zerg player but it basically boils down to outplaying your opponent. In case of mutas you can try dropping multiple places at once and just trying to catch them with your viking/raven. If they have enough money to have a sizeable flock of mutas, enough swarm hosts to keep you pinned down + the spores AND money for an ultralisk switch, you should be at a point where you have mass orbital and a 150+ supply army including a cloud of ravens. Suddenly his tech switches become a lot less scary when all his supply is tied up in drones and it becomes impossible for him to have a cost efficient engagements.
Also "just dying to ultralisks" should almost never happen assuming you don't get caught out in the open. I guess you aren't building defensive planetaries in crucial locations, ultralisks have a hell of a hard time attacking into those.
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Catching mutas with vikings? That seems unlikely to me. And I never said a sizable flock of mutas, 10 is easily enough to take down drops and hellions fast. So that + swarmhosts isn't exactly strange. A few spores aren't that expensive, and generally when they aren't killing your drops those mutas can provide additional air coverage.
And massing vikings just means you take an enormous risk against ultralisks, since both vikings and ravens are useless vs them. Sure you can make planetaries everywhere, but that puts the costs of a bunch of spores to completely irrelevant. Planetaries are alot more expensive than that. Not to mention he then doesn't need to kill you with a wave of ultralisks: He has the entire map, if the first wave fails, make another one. Considering compares to WoL ultralisks do like triple the damage vs the mech meatshield I think it is really easy to say you just shouldn't die to them. And that is ignoring vipers, one good run of them and your mech army is gone. And you cannot just remax.
But really you act like it is strange for a zerg to have 10 mutas and a load of swarmhost, then please also inform my zerg opponents of it. Because it is really getting irritating. Just like people tell me if a zerg has a larger flock of mutas he can't have many roaches, apparantly my opponents dont agree on that...
And I would blame my macro, if my macro wasn't reasonable enough vs other terrans, and just good vs toss (I always go for the late game macro with mech vs toss). But at least them I can harass. Toss I prefer banshees. Vs terran hellbat drops and hellions. If I use them vs zerg they just get killed by generally mutas.
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Honestly to me it sounds extremely odd that someone would have so much trouble meching TvZ but not TvP.
Maybe you should post some replays of your games, people might be able to help you better that way. We can go on all day about how zerg can do this and terran can do that but it wont probably help much if we cant identify the problems in your play.
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Can't help it, TvP I just get  . With purely macro games I have above 70% win rate vs toss. Of those I lose probably 50/50 between all-ins I misscouted and air switches for toss, with a few times I get beaten by toss ground army and random mid-game stuff, but not too often.
TvZ is currently at 40%, but those wins are generally semi-all ins of my working out (BFHs currently) or the zerg doing something extremely stupid. Such as proxy-hatching (on my natural), or my last late game win vs zerg: Mass roaches + few infestors into a choke vs mech army.
You are right that probably a replay helps more, if I am home and got a good one (or two) I guess I can upload them. The 'problem' I have with it, is that generally you get alot of stuff like: You were supply capped, your macro is bad, etc. Probably true, but that is the same for my TvP games (and TvT) and I do win them. But will upload one when I got one.
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What do you do when your opponent goes phoenix immortal colossi in tvp?
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Main problem with that for me is that raiding is pretty much a no-go. But besides that never had issues with phoenix, I am more worried about them mixing in tempests (and carriers also, although mainly tempests).
So I just make a regular mix of:
Siege tanks - ground control, do reasonable against not too large numbers of colossi, but I make a bit less than usual
Hellbats - need to put minerals in something, and so does he, so he will have plenty of zealots
Thors - a bit more than usual, vs phoenix they do to air what siege tanks do to ground, give space control
Ghosts - EMP versus mainly immortals, as secondary role they are fine also vs phoenix
Ravens - PDD, and some insurance against mainly tempest transition, also void, but you should be fine against that anyway
Vikings - alot of vikings. Don't overdo it, he can always go back to full ground, but it is hard to overdo it against such an army
I guess you could also completely replace ghosts with ravens, but one error and phoenix rip through ravens. So TL;DR is that I just make my fairly standard composition with bit less focus on siege tanks and more on vikings/thors. With still plenty of siege tanks for area control and as secondary anti colossus, your vikings probably busy handling phoenix.
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On October 30 2013 04:52 Snusmumriken wrote:
What do you do when your opponent goes phoenix immortal colossi in tvp?
Viking banshee would rape that. So would thor viking ghost hellbat tank.
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Thanks I will update the OP with those 
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Hi all, looking for some help on a build I used to use a few months ago. I've lost all trace of the build, both in my own replays (guess I deleted them) and all my online resources.
It was a TvT mech build popularized by either Polt or Forgg (I want to say Forgg) that emphasized hellions over hellbats, giving you map control and constant threat of harass. You opened hellions and made hellions nonstop throughout the game. The only specific I remember about the build was that it opened 15 gas...
I'm sure it was phased out after the banshee cloak buff a while back, but I want to see if I can work it into my current arsenal again.
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On October 30 2013 15:32 halpimcat wrote:
Hi all, looking for some help on a build I used to use a few months ago. I've lost all trace of the build, both in my own replays (guess I deleted them) and all my online resources.
It was a TvT mech build popularized by either Polt or Forgg (I want to say Forgg) that emphasized hellions over hellbats, giving you map control and constant threat of harass. You opened hellions and made hellions nonstop throughout the game. The only specific I remember about the build was that it opened 15 gas...
I'm sure it was phased out after the banshee cloak buff a while back, but I want to see if I can work it into my current arsenal again.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412904
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On October 30 2013 17:44 Porishan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 15:32 halpimcat wrote:
Hi all, looking for some help on a build I used to use a few months ago. I've lost all trace of the build, both in my own replays (guess I deleted them) and all my online resources.
It was a TvT mech build popularized by either Polt or Forgg (I want to say Forgg) that emphasized hellions over hellbats, giving you map control and constant threat of harass. You opened hellions and made hellions nonstop throughout the game. The only specific I remember about the build was that it opened 15 gas...
I'm sure it was phased out after the banshee cloak buff a while back, but I want to see if I can work it into my current arsenal again. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412904
Thanks!
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On October 30 2013 06:24 Sissors wrote:
Main problem with that for me is that raiding is pretty much a no-go. But besides that never had issues with phoenix, I am more worried about them mixing in tempests (and carriers also, although mainly tempests).
So I just make a regular mix of:
Siege tanks - ground control, do reasonable against not too large numbers of colossi, but I make a bit less than usual
Hellbats - need to put minerals in something, and so does he, so he will have plenty of zealots
Thors - a bit more than usual, vs phoenix they do to air what siege tanks do to ground, give space control
Ghosts - EMP versus mainly immortals, as secondary role they are fine also vs phoenix
Ravens - PDD, and some insurance against mainly tempest transition, also void, but you should be fine against that anyway
Vikings - alot of vikings. Don't overdo it, he can always go back to full ground, but it is hard to overdo it against such an army
I guess you could also completely replace ghosts with ravens, but one error and phoenix rip through ravens. So TL;DR is that I just make my fairly standard composition with bit less focus on siege tanks and more on vikings/thors. With still plenty of siege tanks for area control and as secondary anti colossus, your vikings probably busy handling phoenix.
Yeah maybe i shouldve said I play ghostless tvp mech. I frankly don't see the point in using ghosts with mech, I might as well play bio then. But I guess if theyre heavy on immortals massing banshee viking raven with some tanks n hellbats is ideal?
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EPT
