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On October 31 2013 03:01 Snusmumriken wrote:
Yeah maybe i shouldve said I play ghostless tvp mech. I frankly don't see the point in using ghosts with mech, I might as well play bio then. But I guess if theyre heavy on immortals massing banshee viking raven with some tanks n hellbats is ideal?
Ghostless mech? :O Is it even in any way reliable to fight Protoss ground without Ghosts? In my last few TvPs I kinda tried to go "ghostless" but I ended up getting a few anyway and ended up losing because of not having enough EMPs to fight mass Immortals.
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On October 31 2013 03:34 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 03:01 Snusmumriken wrote:
Yeah maybe i shouldve said I play ghostless tvp mech. I frankly don't see the point in using ghosts with mech, I might as well play bio then. But I guess if theyre heavy on immortals massing banshee viking raven with some tanks n hellbats is ideal? Ghostless mech? :O Is it even in any way reliable to fight Protoss ground without Ghosts? In my last few TvPs I kinda tried to go "ghostless" but I ended up getting a few anyway and ended up losing because of not having enough EMPs to fight mass Immortals.
yes but you have to turtle like a madman and get a gazillion ravens. Basically you got an endgame comp of 15-20 tanks max, 8+ ravens and the rest vikings and hellions. Lots of hellions to snipe the templars.
Youre also very vulnerable to certain timingpushes so got to scout a lot. Building a medivac for harass but more importantly for scouting around the opponents main is a good idea.
That was why I got screwed when I played vs phoenix imortal. Not enough vikings and so ravens cant do their thing vs ground. Lots of vikings and banshees is a better idea than ravens then I guess.
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Regardless of your composition, you'll have a problem in TvP because, unlike WoL, you can't aim for a truly "strong vs everything" composition at most point of the game, meaning you are constantly vulnerable to a wide amount of things.. the main reason of that being that protoss air got considerably buffed at all points of the game; which affect a lot your opening/composition/etc
Currently i'm totally lost in terms of openings (i loved my "immune to everything" wol one  )
Anyway.. HOTS made mech worse imo. None of mech fundamental issues got adressed, and some hard counters went into the game for P/Z
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On October 31 2013 04:50 Lyyna wrote:
Anyway.. HOTS made mech worse imo.
I was bitching about this months and months ago and everyone was like "just wait, it's to soon, but we have mines,etc..."
Blizz fixed some relatively minor problems like charge Zealots (hellbats) and introduced more retarded hard counters. They are either clueless or simply lying about wanting to make mech viable (ever since they were forced to remove the Warhound)
This 1/10 buff to the Tank rate of fire is the most significant positive thing they ever did for mech. Not that it will matter mind you.
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On October 31 2013 06:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:I was bitching about this months and months ago and everyone was like "just wait, it's to soon, but we have mines,etc..."
Pfff I was bitching months before you about it  .
I am like the hipster of mech bitching  .
But no serious, I completely agree. Vs zerg it is so obvious no-one can deny HotS mech is far worse than WoL. Against toss we maybe see it a bit more on top level, but for me personally I consider it worse. Sure mech got some minor boosts + hellbats, which are nice although also have their downsides compared to hellions. But in the end they are nice to have. But at the same time toss got oracle, better phoenix, better carrier, and most scary, the tempest, which is basicly a hardcounter to mech. Not only that, in WoL my end-game was a battlecruiser transition. It definately wasn't unbeatable by a toss, but it was very strong. In HotS that is severely nerfed. (And toss of course also got general boosts such as photon overcharge, MsC high ground vision, DTs cheaper, etc).
Down the line I am hoping blizzard doesn't boost mech in LotV. Simply because they would do it in HotS, and look how that ended.
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I'd like to theorycraft some new economy focused, defensive and safe (yes, feel free to say there are none) openings (mech) for TvP (main focus) and TvT, because with current builds I feel like I'm flipping coin and I die to certain things just flat out. Do you have something that works for you? Please, share your experience...
Main points:
TvP:
1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to Blink allin (thinking reactor WM)?
2) Do you go for reactor on your rax? When?
3) Is single WM in your mineral line enough to defend proxy Oracle or do you need Ebay + Turret (5:30 Oracle benchmark)?
4) Would it be possible to go for 2 Armories, then 2 additional Factores and make 1-2 rounds of Hellbats before going into Tanks/Thors?
5) Do you prefer getting fast Raven or Ebay + Turret as your detection (7:30 DT benchmark)?
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
TvT:
1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to 1/1/1 push/contain?
2) What is the best way to deflect gas first cloak banshee build (7:00 benchmark)?
3) When would you build your CC? After rax, factory, or starport?
4) When do you start your Turret ring vs Bio?
5) What do you build from your Starport? Do you continue on Vikings for air superiority? When do you reactor it?
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
Thanks for any answers, I will be trying new builds today and I really want to make solid robus macro oriented build..
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1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to Blink allin (thinking reactor WM)?
No, i dont see the way to make it possible
good toss will always win
2) Do you go for reactor on your rax? When?
15 gas->2 marines->reactor->+4 marines ( total 6 )
in case of 1 base / 2base push reactor is making marines constantly
3) Is single WM in your mineral line enough to defend proxy Oracle or do you need Ebay + Turret (5:30 Oracle benchmark)?
yes, it is enough
15 gas->2 marines->reactor->+4marines->fac into reactor -> make hellion+mine
6 marines on natural, WM on the main, hellion scouts
WM later moves to 3rd or 4th protoss base to deny it
4) Would it be possible to go for 2 Armories, then 2 additional Factores and make 1-2 rounds of Hellbats before going into Tanks/Thors?
before patch no
hellbats are useless
it is a lot hellbats even without this additional 1-2 rounds
you need only 10-12, and 4 hellions for scouting purposes, an some hellbats for drops, not more
5) Do you prefer getting fast Raven or Ebay + Turret as your detection (7:30 DT benchmark)?
Raven
i have starport
i scout with my hellion from the fac
if im expecting dts (or if im in the dark) im making raven then banshee without invis
if no dts guaranteed im making 2 banshees with invis then raven
if stargate it is raven then vikings
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
I dont think so
There is a build based on fast 6 factories into @200/200
but it sux now
TvT:
1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to 1/1/1 push/contain?
sure, bio (but it is hard)
but with mech transition i dont see any reason not to build tank
2) What is the best way to deflect gas first cloak banshee build (7:00 benchmark)?
12 rax 13 gas -> 1 marine -> 2gas->fac->reactor on rax->starport +lab on fac-> then make Raven+Invis on lab, 7 marines, 2 mines 1 viking in total, then go tanks and banshee
3) When would you build your CC? After rax, factory, or starport?
when you have 400
thats just before tank
more important question is "when to build 3rd"
answer ASAP, it is on 7:30-8:30 minute
(too complicated question to answer fast)
4) When do you start your Turret ring vs Bio?
when i have 3rd base saturated
before this moment im controlling space with 2 sensors (on 3rd and on main) + 6 vikings + medivacs with hellbats
5) What do you build from your Starport? Do you continue on Vikings for air superiority? When do you reactor it?
vs bio like 6-8 vikings 4-6 medivacs
starport works almost constantly
vs mech only medivacs for drop
vs passive players not more then 4 vikings
there is also mass viking style but i dont like it
but its ok
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
in tvt? bio
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Thanks for those detailed answers Val, really solid info there, I agree mostly with what you say..
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In addition to Vals answers:
1. Somewhere between doubtfull and hell no. If it is a MsC blink all-in I would call it doubtfull. You would need to place them so that they are triggered when blinking to high-ground, but cannot be baited out and then blinking the stalker away. Together with marines and bunkers I guess it could possibly work.
If it is observer blink, hell no.
2. Personally I do 13-gas, 1 marine -> reactor
3. You barely see it, but it happens that they wait until two or even three oracles before moving in. Been there, lost to that. Then your widow mine defense looks quite sad.
5. Personally I prefer turrets, because they are multifunctional as anti-oracle. These days when I scout double saturated gas I just finish the ebay block on his natural. Then at least missile turret in main and entrance to natural. Depending on when the toss bothers to destroy it I also already make one at natural.
6. What is the beginning? Depending on your strat you don't necesarily need it early on.
Tvt:
3. Depends completely on your opening.
4. Depends alot on map also. But for sure I want it before I move my army away.
5. Depends on what your opponent does. Personally I try to have air-superiority. So I want to make more vikings than the enemy has. But overdoing it is a bad idea.
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Can someone critic my current game plan while meching in TvZ. I don't have replays because I want you to critic my general train of thoughts. My execution is far from being able to execute fully my general strategy plan, so I wanna make sure my strategy is sound before I really focus on my mechanics.
Opener:
On large maps I like to do gas first CC first into 2 fact BF. I know its sort of cheesy, but at diamond league I should be able to react and not get hard countered 100% when they scout it. And a lot of Zergs skip roaches these days.
If I detect roaches, I transition into hellbat drops to keep them on the map. Otherwise I go in and kill a lot of drones and figure out what their transition is.
I have plans for 3 different general zerg strats:
1. Muta Roach (and banelings for backup) into Mass muta, possibly double spire.
2. Roach Hydra into Vipers,
3. Mass Muta into Swarmhost transition.
For (1) I like to do a Thor Hellbat +2 Armor timing off of 2 base. And if I can't do critical damage, I transition into 4 bases and play the late late game with mass orbitals, low scv count, and taking only cost effecient engagements. My only problem is if they go fast hive for broodlords so that they get them right when my Thors arrive to their base. Not sure what my reaction should be... Should I scout for hive timing, and simply not attack once they get broodlords? I feel that since I've already invested in 2 base, I need to do critical damage or else I'll be at a massive disadvantage (they have more tech, more bases). If I attack too soon they just make a shitload of roaches and I can't trade cost effectively. So I feel stuck in this case.
For (2) I like to play pure tank mine with a couple of vikings and hellions for scouting/map control. I'll be behind in the midgame and as long as I can defend my third (pain in the ass on Bel Shir) I can slowly get the advantage again due to a much more cost effecient army. I do constant hellbat drops if they like to be on the map, taking potshots at my expansions or whatever. They eventually wisen up and keep enough roaches at home for me to push out and secure my 4th.
I'll do a prehive push if I feel that they're rushing to vipers, otherwise, I just keep a good tank spread, simcity, and an increasing viking count to deal with vipers, and mines are unaffected by blinding cloud so Viper's aren't too troublesome. From here I usually prepare for an air switch and start upgrading air weapons, taking note of that game where flash went mech, did a great timing, got his fourth, but fell apart due to vipers and not enough vikings.
Having air (and extra orbitals) means banshees should do just fine versus hydras, esp with Raven and Thor support since those 2 units are super supply effecient. Banshees are also much easier to counter swarmhosts with than tanks. The goal is to get 3/3 upgrades and eventually win through constant cost effecient engagements.
(3) I actually have the hardest time against. If I don't do critical damage with my BFH timing (queen wall, or lots of spines) I'll be relatively even midgame but I lose a lot of map control from fast'ish mutas. Even if I don't take a ton of damage, I'll be spending a lot of money on turrets and usually my army size is really small until I get sufficient turrets. So I can't attack until I have enough turrets, and when I do attack he'll have his swarmhosts just in time, forcing me to take a cost in-effecient engagement/trade armies which I can't afford off 3 base. Not sure if I detect no roaches should I simply opt for a 2 base timing as well in this case like case 1? Or is it better to do constant hellbat drops to force roaches (and delay their swarmhost?). Should I be building tanks to accompany my push to fight the first 5 or 6 swarmhosts?
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On October 31 2013 22:38 Everlong wrote:
I'd like to theorycraft some new economy focused, defensive and safe (yes, feel free to say there are none) openings (mech) for TvP (main focus) and TvT, because with current builds I feel like I'm flipping coin and I die to certain things just flat out. Do you have something that works for you? Please, share your experience...
TvT:
1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to 1/1/1 push/contain?
2) What is the best way to deflect gas first cloak banshee build (7:00 benchmark)?
Yes, you can use gas 15 expand into Hellions/Vikings with a Raven (Marine Marine reactor CC fact port; after 6 Marines, land fact on the reactor to make Hellions, the rax makes a lab; once the Starport is done, land it on the lab to produce a Viking then a Raven; second gas around 5'15 - 5'30). Keep both scans until your Raven is out. Hellions, Autoturret(s) and landed Vikings can defend a Marines/Tanks/whatever push, with a SCV pull if necessary if it's a one-base/delayed expand variant.
Alternatively, with the same opening (gas 15 expand), you can use a Marines/Tanks/Vikings defence with Turrets and 1-2 Mine(s), then go your mech transition. See Ryung vs MMA, Newkirk, SC2L Playoffs [game starts at ~01:01:00].
On October 31 2013 22:38 Everlong wrote:
6) Is it possible to skip Starport at the beginning?
Nope, the early Starport tech is critical for mech, whether you get harassment units (Medivac/Banshees) or combat/defensive ones (Vikings and a Raven).
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I would like some feedback from one of you fine mech players  I'm a high diamond player, and I've been stuck between high diamond/low masters for a long time now. I want to improve.
Currently, I'm meching in all three matchups. In TvT, I'm just playing typical positional mech with tank/hellion/viking with other units as needed. I love that, position wars are super fun, I don't need help there as there are plenty of professional games for me to learn from in that area.
In TvZ, I was inspired by Flash's 3 base timing vs DRG on Derelict Watcher from IEM New York, game 1. I've been using this general idea in all my TvZ games, and as such have made my general gameplan to reaper expand into hellion+banshee harass into a 3 base 2/2 tank/hellion/banshee/thor timing, and I move out when I scout the infestation pit (as that determines my opponent is either going for swarmhosts or viper, which both counter mech hard), so it yields a nice moment of weakness when I can catch Zerg unprepared. Does this sound like a solid plan? Is there something else I should keep in mind while doing this? And does it work on all maps, or are there some where this simply won't work?
In TvP, I'm really unsure of what to do. My gameplan has been similar to my TvZ, but is a bit more heavy on units and less so on upgrades. I usually do 12/12 reaper scout>reactored marines and use that to determine my opponent's plan and change my opening accordingly, reacting to whether he's going aggressive or simply fast expanding. My general goal is to use tank/turret/banshee to secure my third, at which case one of two things usually happen. 1.) My opponent doesn't like my quick third, and attacks with some kind of heavy gateway composition with either immortals or void rays mixed in, which I generally crush and then attack with tank/banshee/hellion with 5 fact thor/hellbat rallied behind for a death push: 2.) My opponent also takes a third, and then slowly tries to tech toward immortal/archon or stargate, and I react accordingly by pushing quickly with my current composition while rallying 5 fact hellion/thor+banshee to kill if he goes ground, or I throw down a reactored starport, crank out vikings and then push for the kill if he goes air. The thing is, I think my opponents are just bad vs. mech, and I would like to know if there is any way to work with this idea (three base timing) vs P, or if I need to get myself used to the idea of playing a turtle game until I get ghost+raven?
If these don't work, are there any other mech timings that I could use that are more effective in either TvZ or TvP? I would prefer to avoid "turtle" play, if possible, but I will understand if there's nothing viable.
I'm happy to submit replays if it will help you judge my gameplan. Thank you for your time.
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On November 01 2013 07:10 CakeSauc3 wrote:I would like some feedback from one of you fine mech players I'm a high diamond player, and I've been stuck between high diamond/low masters for a long time now. I want to improve. Currently, I'm meching in all three matchups. In TvT, I'm just playing typical positional mech with tank/hellion/viking with other units as needed. I love that, position wars are super fun, I don't need help there as there are plenty of professional games for me to learn from in that area. In TvZ, I was inspired by Flash's 3 base timing vs DRG on Derelict Watcher from IEM New York, game 1. I've been using this general idea in all my TvZ games, and as such have made my general gameplan to reaper expand into hellion+banshee harass into a 3 base 2/2 tank/hellion/banshee/thor timing, and I move out when I scout the infestation pit (as that determines my opponent is either going for swarmhosts or viper, which both counter mech hard), so it yields a nice moment of weakness when I can catch Zerg unprepared. Does this sound like a solid plan? Is there something else I should keep in mind while doing this? And does it work on all maps, or are there some where this simply won't work? In TvP, I'm really unsure of what to do. My gameplan has been similar to my TvZ, but is a bit more heavy on units and less so on upgrades. I usually do 12/12 reaper scout>reactored marines and use that to determine my opponent's plan and change my opening accordingly, reacting to whether he's going aggressive or simply fast expanding. My general goal is to use tank/turret/banshee to secure my third, at which case one of two things usually happen. 1.) My opponent doesn't like my quick third, and attacks with some kind of heavy gateway composition with either immortals or void rays mixed in, which I generally crush and then attack with tank/banshee/hellion with 5 fact thor/hellbat rallied behind for a death push: 2.) My opponent also takes a third, and then slowly tries to tech toward immortal/archon or stargate, and I react accordingly by pushing quickly with my current composition while rallying 5 fact hellion/thor+banshee to kill if he goes ground, or I throw down a reactored starport, crank out vikings and then push for the kill if he goes air. The thing is, I think my opponents are just bad vs. mech, and I would like to know if there is any way to work with this idea (three mech timing) vs P, or if I need to get myself used to the idea of playing a turtle game until I get ghost+raven? If these don't work, are there any other mech timings that I could use that are more effective in either TvZ or TvP? I would prefer to avoid "turtle" play, if possible, but I will understand if there's nothing viable. I'm happy to submit replays if it will help you judge my gameplan. Thank you for your time.
Maybe this will help,
http://drop.sc/363651
vs top 16 gm na, tvp***
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On November 02 2013 12:06 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2013 07:10 CakeSauc3 wrote:I would like some feedback from one of you fine mech players I'm a high diamond player, and I've been stuck between high diamond/low masters for a long time now. I want to improve. Currently, I'm meching in all three matchups. In TvT, I'm just playing typical positional mech with tank/hellion/viking with other units as needed. I love that, position wars are super fun, I don't need help there as there are plenty of professional games for me to learn from in that area. In TvZ, I was inspired by Flash's 3 base timing vs DRG on Derelict Watcher from IEM New York, game 1. I've been using this general idea in all my TvZ games, and as such have made my general gameplan to reaper expand into hellion+banshee harass into a 3 base 2/2 tank/hellion/banshee/thor timing, and I move out when I scout the infestation pit (as that determines my opponent is either going for swarmhosts or viper, which both counter mech hard), so it yields a nice moment of weakness when I can catch Zerg unprepared. Does this sound like a solid plan? Is there something else I should keep in mind while doing this? And does it work on all maps, or are there some where this simply won't work? In TvP, I'm really unsure of what to do. My gameplan has been similar to my TvZ, but is a bit more heavy on units and less so on upgrades. I usually do 12/12 reaper scout>reactored marines and use that to determine my opponent's plan and change my opening accordingly, reacting to whether he's going aggressive or simply fast expanding. My general goal is to use tank/turret/banshee to secure my third, at which case one of two things usually happen. 1.) My opponent doesn't like my quick third, and attacks with some kind of heavy gateway composition with either immortals or void rays mixed in, which I generally crush and then attack with tank/banshee/hellion with 5 fact thor/hellbat rallied behind for a death push: 2.) My opponent also takes a third, and then slowly tries to tech toward immortal/archon or stargate, and I react accordingly by pushing quickly with my current composition while rallying 5 fact hellion/thor+banshee to kill if he goes ground, or I throw down a reactored starport, crank out vikings and then push for the kill if he goes air. The thing is, I think my opponents are just bad vs. mech, and I would like to know if there is any way to work with this idea (three mech timing) vs P, or if I need to get myself used to the idea of playing a turtle game until I get ghost+raven? If these don't work, are there any other mech timings that I could use that are more effective in either TvZ or TvP? I would prefer to avoid "turtle" play, if possible, but I will understand if there's nothing viable. I'm happy to submit replays if it will help you judge my gameplan. Thank you for your time. Maybe this will help, http://drop.sc/363651vs top 16 gm na, tvp***
Thanks a lot of the response! I'm looking at the replay and trying to analyze it, there's a lot to take in though.
I really like how you avoided playing a turtle game once you've secured a fourth base, and you were constantly putting pressure on with hellbat drops and how you favor ghosts as a primary function in your army.
Two questions I had:
1.) I saw you open with a marine/hellion poke with a mine drop, but I wasn't sure how you were able to rule out oracle or blink play. Was there a specific timing that you saw with your scv that ruled that out? Usually when I see double gas from P and no super fast expo, I get suspicious, but you felt comfortable just moving out instead of bunkering up.
2.) There was a phase in the game where you went heavy widow mine. I'm not sure if I understand the transition - was it because your opponent began favoring immortal/zealot? I haven't really considered the use of widow mines in my mech army, I'm just curious. Thanks!
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On October 31 2013 23:52 Val_ wrote:
1) Is it possible to open without Tanks and not die to Blink allin (thinking reactor WM)?
No, i dont see the way to make it possible
good toss will always win
Some of my TvPs I open double reactor Hellion, and I consider it a pretty strong set-up vs Blink plays. They rarely get detection and once you scout it you can pump out so many Mines that 1-shot the Stalkers as soon as they move into your base.
Of course, if they do get detection (and I've had a regular Blink cheeser do this to me explicitly because he recognised that I went mines against him before) you just get a BO loss..
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Damn this is a lot of good information! I used to play Protoss(for 3 weeks) but I wanted to switch to mech just seemed more fun to do!
But I have a question about upgrades. First of all when i see the movies its all about upgrading all the time with 1 armory its always weapons first and than armor. With 2 its the same time, is this correct? and what are the times for getting free hellion/bat switch and blue flame, and drills?
Thanks again for the great info!
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This is a build I've crafted recently:
http://drop.sc/364096
Obviously it is just an example and it is for illustrative purposes. There are lots of little things you can adjust for specific matchups. But overall I think it is pretty safe and solid build.
If you scout some 1 base schenenigans, you just keep Marine production, 2-3 Tanks, Raven (and maybe ebay) and float your CC to natural when you feel safe.
If you scout greedy openings, you can skip Tanks and make just a few Marines and get fast 3rd CC.
The key part in this build are 2 Armories and fast Raven transition (Instead of Ghosts TvP).
If you feel like you need more production, you can add 4/5th Factory before going into Ravens (I'd actually suggest doing so most of the time)
You can skip 2nd armory and 3rd cc and go for timing push from 2 bases, it catches most people off guard since everyone expects mech to build slowly.
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Opinions on the new maps? I'm saddened.
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On November 05 2013 22:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Opinions on the new maps? I'm saddened.
If you take appropriate approach to mech on large maps you should be ok with those maps. One of my favourite maps to play mech TvP on is Whirlwind and I can't wait to try it on Alterzim.. :-)
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I liked whirlwind too, but Alterzim makes hellion harassment and counterattacks much harder than the more open Whirlwind
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EPT
