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Hey BurningRanger. I sped through your two replays, so my comments will be pretty general, but hopefully they'll help.
In the TvZ, if you check the units lost tab you were ridiculously cost effective -- but killing twice as many units doesn't matter if he's mining three times as much. So you were right to identify the major problem that you never got a fourth up.
For a mech/sky army I consider 4 bases to be the minimum necessary to really get the army going properly, with 5 being the point where you can lose significant chunks and still afford to replace it. How you do this really depends on the map, but it's usually going to involve careful consideration of which base to take and where to position your army/PFs.
For example, on Yeonsu I like to expand horizontally, because even though the third is slightly harder to hold, it makes the fourth much easier. To do this I put an OC at the base, but a PF in the centre of the largest gap (alongside a full wall-off). The PF helps to neutralise the many attack paths, since with the walloff you can have your army well defended from all of them. This also makes it easier to defend the natural at the same time, since the bases are so close.
On a related note, you should always check for opportunities to snipe one of his bases to limit his income. This might be something as simple as a-moving a bunch of Hellbats somewhere you think he expanded, or as complex as multi-pronged Thor drops (not something I do, but I've seen others do it very effectively). In this case, you could easily have taken out the base below your third just by dropping some auto-turrets at it with your Ravens.
Smaller things I noticed.
At the start you built a Marine, which is fine (it's also what I do), but you didn't use it for anything. I personally think it's always worth a quick scout for Overlords to see if you can get a free kill. In this case you could have gotten one easily as it ran right at your main ramp.
You built your CC really far away from the natural. If you don't feel confident building it on the low ground, you should build it near the cliff so it can float over earlier.
You stopped upgrading for a long time. These are very important, and mech benefits a lot from them. For a rough benchmark, I've been finishing 3/3 at around 18:30 minutes when I open defensively.
You never really built macro-OCs, but you had the money to. In the late game you want to get at least 9 OCs, and then throw away all non-gas/repair SCVs to maximise your army. And on the subject of repair SCVs, you should bring some with you when moving out -- I usually take around 8 or so. They help a lot during battles, and then leave your army as good as new when the second Zerg army rolls in.
You noted yourself, but your Nydus/drop defence didn't exist. Having turrets set up for this is essential, as is keeping your eyes open to kill off a Nydus immediately. The latter is just a matter of training your eyes to stay on the minimap.
In the TvP, I think it's really a game you could have won. Again some of the same themes crop up -- late of OCs, failure to upgrade, etc. But where you fell down was in your composition and positioning during the battle.
The main problem here was that you scouted him doing a full air switch, but you didn't really switch yourself. Part of this, I think, was because you were maxed. But you should realise that in situations where you have a load of Tanks and nothing to shoot with them it's worthwhile just throwing them away to replace them with more useful units. As a bonus, if you send them round the edge of the map towards a 4th or 5th or whatever you can quite often score a kill before the Protoss reacts.
Fortunately he didn't use his advantage early on and let you get some air up, but when the battle came he really walked through you. You had some nice micro to pick of Tempests, but I'll just go through the basic facts as I see them when fighting SkyToss.
Voidrays are the worst unit the Protoss can get unless they're catching you totally off-guard. The solution to them is to put your Thors in splash mode and make sure they're targetting the centre of the group (Voids clump a tonne), and, more importantly, to use the Seeker Missile ability on your Ravens to splash them -- I think 2(?) will kill a clump or Voids, or at least come close.
Carriers. These can be tricky. If someone is just massing Carriers what you really want is Battlecruisers, since Yamato is so strong (2-shots per Carrier) and the units are so tanky. However, if the Protoss is also getting a lot of Tempests, Battlecruisers are awful (they take over 90 damage per Tempest shot). In this case (and in my games I always assume from the start that it will be the case) you want Ravens and Vikings. You'll need to target fire the Vikings to make sure they're not shoowing Interceptors and, again most importantly, Seeker Missile all the Carriers. Like the Voids, Carriers clump up a lot, and they're too slow to really consider running away. The burst damage of the HSM is what lowers them enough to be dealt with by the fragile Vikings and low-dps Thors.
Tempests. Trust Blizzard to make mech viable by adding in a hard counter. But they can be easily dealt with, again, by Vikings and Ravens, just like you were. Storm is tough to deal with as Vikigns are so fragile, but good Tanks positioning and EMPs can even the playing field.
So, for the battle you were fighting there, I'd have done a few things differently. Primarily I'd have put my Thors in splash mode and targetted them at Voids, I'd have used the Ravens to Seeker Missile the Voids/Carriers, and I'd have had my Battlecruisers in the fight to Yamato the Carriers (though realistically I'd never have built them -- I'd have spent all that supply on Ravens and Vikings),
That was a bit more than I intended to write, and I'm far too lazy to proof read it all... hope it makes sense and is somewhat useful.
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Hi Dzerzhinsky,
first of all... Thank You so much for spending the time to watch those long replays of mine and writing up so many tips. They make perfect sense.
I'm quite happy that you're coming to some conclusions that I saw as well. It tells me that I'm not too far off the track. More important are certainly the things I didn't see myself (e.g. the late upgrades and army compositions).
I guess there's not much more to say for me. I don't want to seem like searching for excuses. I will work on the things you pointed out and try to improve my play. Thanks again, it's greatly appreciated!
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Hello, what do you do if the zerg masses mutalisk? Mass turrets costs a lot and thors too, you can't get enought thors to kill all mutas because they magic box... Any tips?
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On November 18 2013 17:11 GuiRao wrote:
Hello, what do you do if the zerg masses mutalisk? Mass turrets costs a lot and thors too, you can't get enought thors to kill all mutas because they magic box... Any tips?
First of all, mass Mutas do cost a lot, too. So you should be able to get a bunch of Thors up (about 4 Thors together can beat like infinite amounts of Mutas). Add Ravens so you can throw PDDs on your Thors. Pull SCVs to repair then.
You can also try to HSM the Mutas, but it's a gamble. It may make him run all the Mutas away to not eat the HSM. If he's good he just flys the targeted one away and you've won nothing. If he's even better he will fly that one into some of your units for friendly fire.
Mass Turrets are still fine btw. You usually have the minerals spare anyways. They're also mainly to buy time to get your Thors over there to defend.
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4 Thors can beat infinite number of mutas? Even if he magic box the mutalisk? It's hard to belive...
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On November 18 2013 17:46 GuiRao wrote:
4 Thors can beat infinite number of mutas? Even if he magic box the mutalisk? It's hard to belive...
Well, eventually they will fall, if they're not repaired certainly, but yes, even if the Mutas are magic boxed, a lot of them will die. Just think about how many Mutas are needed to get 4 Thors down. Mutas have a quite short range, so in these high numbers it's near impossible to not have some of them stacked. Even if they're so far spread out, they can't all attack 1 Thor at once. The damage will be spread over the Thors, which makes those live even longer.
Now just add a few PDDs and a bunch of SCVs for repairs and the Thors are invincible (vs. Mutas).
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On November 18 2013 17:46 GuiRao wrote:
4 Thors can beat infinite number of mutas? Even if he magic box the mutalisk? It's hard to belive...
For me too. I have lost often enough when moving out with 5-6 thors to simply mass mutas. Sure possibly the thors are cost effective against magic boxed mutas, however considering all your tanks and hellbats are useless he doesn't need to cost effectively beat the thors, since the cost effectiveness comes automatically when killing all your tanks for free.
And if you mass thors + hellbats only he can easily do a roach or swarmhost switch.
Thats tbh a problem I often have with pro replays of zerg vs mech terran. Sure those zerg players have way better macro, micro, etc compared to my opponents. But also often they make really weird choices against mech, instead of just using the default counters to mech that my opponents do seem to be able to find. A while ago I saw a TvZ where it was indeed hellbats + thors vs lings + mutas. The zerg still beat the mech army (and managed to lose later on), but why would you make that composition in the first place when you scouted your opponent went for hellbat thors. My opponents then pretty much always would simply mass swarmhosts or roaches and kill me.
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well with the merged upgrades, if you are in a late game situation against a muta player and he is magic boxing your thors effectively then you can switch to bcs. bcs rape mutas with their decent dps and high armour and in order to kill bcs your opponent has to go hydra or corrupter and both of those units are fairly easy to counter when playing as mech
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A raven viking squad, even if small (2 raven and 4 vikes for example) is great AA support to have throughout the game for those just in case moments. PDD is really good vs mutas. I think pdd has 200 energy with each shot using 10 energy. Thats a few seconds of free dps to help your thors or turrets stay alive.
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Also, a key thing for everyone with thors, think of them like you think of the tank, space control except for the air. while with good splits you can negate the splash, the thor makes it so the zerg has to control his mutas correctly, its no longer something they can choose to do or not do, it is something they HAVE to do. Before that the zerg can do as he pleases with his mutas and get away with it but as soon as you have 2-4 thors out he has to control perfectly or else a volley from your thor squad will decimate him. With space control units like the tank and thor its not so much about waiting for him to a-move into your army and die, rather its about forcing the mistakes from your opponent.
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I have always meched TvZ and it is by far my best matchup. I usually open with a fast WM marine drop while I take my natural and build my wall and get out my first tank. Then I play defensive and slowly switch to a mech sky Terran army, and lots of PF turrets sensor towers. I really enjoy these games, and I am getting decent vs swarm hosts and ultras.
I tried TvP mech for many months using a lot of HTOMario and others as guides, but a couple months ago I got so frustrated with the matchup (deathball, immortals) I went back to bio. Bio is ok, but I keep dying to storms as I have poor micro and low apm. After this patch I am trying mech TvP again. It seems better now (still hard though) as I do notice the impact of combined upgrades since I incorporate a lot of sky Terran with my mech and I never use widow mines past the early game. I find the banshee mid and late game to be very useful, especially when you snipe the observers and cloak. Then because the new maps are so huge sky Terran is better than tanks and thors for sniping their 4th or 5th because the air units fly faster. I'm enjoying TvP mech/sky in the new patch.
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Hi guys. I saw the game between Supernova and Panic today on GSLTV and really liked Supernova's TvP mech build.
For those might interested here's the link: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls2/vod/80902.
It's a gas first opener into helions into a big push around 16-18 minutes on 3-0 upgrades. the composition is mainly tank/hellbat. If anybody else thinks this is genius please contact me. I'd like to share replays and help others to figure this build out. I could also provide the build order. Just let me know.
I'm only a gold player. But I did it today 3 games on ladder and won every one of those. It seems to hit right at this sweet spot before mass air.
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On November 21 2013 06:45 t0n!ght wrote:Hi guys. I saw the game between Supernova and Panic today on GSLTV and really liked Supernova's TvP mech build. For those might interested here's the link: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls2/vod/80902. It's a gas first opener into helions into a big push around 16-18 minutes on 3-0 upgrades. the composition is mainly tank/hellbat. If anybody else thinks this is genius please contact me. I'd like to share replays and help others to figure this build out. I could also provide the build order. Just let me know. I'm only a gold player. But I did it today 3 games on ladder and won every one of those. It seems to hit right at this sweet spot before mass air.
It was interesting ofc, but this game want basically perfectly for him. Panic didn't really scout what was going on before 12 min when he randomly charged into a 2 bases-"shitload of tanks" setup, Supernova's harass went perfectly (Panic had like 50 probes at 18 minutes..), and the protoss splitted his already small army, losing nearly all his stalkers to 3 tanks for a few scvs, and getting his others units trapped...ended in a nearly maxed mech army with a protoss having 1 archon, a few immortal and stalkers
Ofc it's interesting play, and this is really nice to see mech TvP at that lvl, but in that particular game it was basically the best scenario possible for Supernova
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On November 21 2013 06:45 t0n!ght wrote:Hi guys. I saw the game between Supernova and Panic today on GSLTV and really liked Supernova's TvP mech build. For those might interested here's the link: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls2/vod/80902. It's a gas first opener into helions into a big push around 16-18 minutes on 3-0 upgrades. the composition is mainly tank/hellbat. If anybody else thinks this is genius please contact me. I'd like to share replays and help others to figure this build out. I could also provide the build order. Just let me know. I'm only a gold player. But I did it today 3 games on ladder and won every one of those. It seems to hit right at this sweet spot before mass air.
no love for free users?
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Anyone having more success in mech TvP post patch?
I personally have been doing a variation of the 2-2 tank/hellbat push where instead of adding vikings I go pure banshee (assuming no heavy stargate play) and so far it seems quite powerful. I just open typical reaper expand into 1-1-1 into mine/marine/hellion drop depending on what I scout then switch into techlab and never stop building banshees. Use the banshees to deal some damage if the toss neglects his defenses and possibly delay the third, but keep them alive. Cloak is obviously necessary to avoid getting feedbacked.
So when the big push hits once you are nearing maxed you'll probably have 6-7 banshees at least which actually really help dealing with immortals while your hellbat/tank mops up the rest. The only thing they have to kill your banshees is usually archons which can be avoided with some micro and HT/stalker which die very very quickly to tank fire. A few times I've had very even battles where all I'm left with are a few tanks and the banshees, yet the stalkers they warp in can't really scratch them and I end up doing major damage such at sniping the third anyway.
After this push I transition into viking/raven but considering that banshees are only 25 gas more than vikings and supply/build time isn't as big of a limiting factor in these timings, they seem to have great synergy with the push. The only time I really get thrashed is when the toss managed to hide his stargates from me, or when I lose to some random 2-base blink all in.
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What is your armory/upgrade/push timing for this 2-2 Tank/Hellbat push Bagi? I really like the idea of it, as i prefer to mech in all match-ups myself. The things that lose me a lot of games in TvP mech is A) My positioning/Getting caught in a bad spot. B) Unit comp/Bad scouting and C) Being behind on upgrades due to not really having a solid time in mind to throw down double Armory.
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Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it.
Any tips TL?
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On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote:Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
Getting a critical mass of tanks will kill of locusts waves easy and you want to transition into ravens to use hsm to kill the sh off and in order to not loose units to locusts you will want to hid behind some pfs.
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Canada3132 Posts
On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote:Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
Make tanks, add in ravens, then later vikings. With the combined upgrades, your vikings are now pretty effective against mutalisks (as a mech player).
Throw mass turrets because you have the minerals to burn - even before he does mutalisk switch. Also make lots of hellion runbys to abuse the immobility of SHs, which is again another mineral sink.
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On November 26 2013 05:53 Bagi wrote:
Anyone having more success in mech TvP post patch?
I personally have been doing a variation of the 2-2 tank/hellbat push where instead of adding vikings I go pure banshee (assuming no heavy stargate play) and so far it seems quite powerful. I just open typical reaper expand into 1-1-1 into mine/marine/hellion drop depending on what I scout then switch into techlab and never stop building banshees. Use the banshees to deal some damage if the toss neglects his defenses and possibly delay the third, but keep them alive. Cloak is obviously necessary to avoid getting feedbacked.
So when the big push hits once you are nearing maxed you'll probably have 6-7 banshees at least which actually really help dealing with immortals while your hellbat/tank mops up the rest. The only thing they have to kill your banshees is usually archons which can be avoided with some micro and HT/stalker which die very very quickly to tank fire. A few times I've had very even battles where all I'm left with are a few tanks and the banshees, yet the stalkers they warp in can't really scratch them and I end up doing major damage such at sniping the third anyway.
After this push I transition into viking/raven but considering that banshees are only 25 gas more than vikings and supply/build time isn't as big of a limiting factor in these timings, they seem to have great synergy with the push. The only time I really get thrashed is when the toss managed to hide his stargates from me, or when I lose to some random 2-base blink all in.
Could u please add some reps? 
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EPT
