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On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote:Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL?
I'd like to add, throw PDDs in front of your tanks, if Locusts come too close. They block the Locust shots.
It also gives you a little more time to reposition tanks (e.g. leapfrogging closer to the SH between waves).
For the split attacks you'll have to split your tanks and Ravens too and build PFs at expos.
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On November 26 2013 14:19 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote:Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL? Make tanks, add in ravens, then later vikings. With the combined upgrades, your vikings are now pretty effective against mutalisks (as a mech player). Throw mass turrets because you have the minerals to burn - even before he does mutalisk switch. Also make lots of hellion runbys to abuse the immobility of SHs, which is again another mineral sink.
However with mutas into swarmhosts he will have mutas left, which make hellion runbys really a mineral sink, as in they all get intercepted. (At least that happens to mine, maybe doing something wrong).
And my main problem is always that if I go mass vikings he comes with ultras or simply overwelms with mutas, if I go thors he gets broodlords/vipers/more swarmhosts, and with mass tanks he gets also air. Since for zerg tech switching is so fast I am never able to not get hardcountered.
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On November 26 2013 18:20 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 14:19 plogamer wrote:On November 26 2013 13:14 InfectedGoat wrote:Hey guys, I have a question that has probably been asked and answered a thousand times but how do you deal with a lot of swarm hosts with mech. http://drop.sc/366226 .I felt like I was in good shape but I just have 0 idea what to do and I always die to it. they go mutas into swarm hosts and just split attacks on my expos its pretty hard to deal with it. Any tips TL? Make tanks, add in ravens, then later vikings. With the combined upgrades, your vikings are now pretty effective against mutalisks (as a mech player). Throw mass turrets because you have the minerals to burn - even before he does mutalisk switch. Also make lots of hellion runbys to abuse the immobility of SHs, which is again another mineral sink. However with mutas into swarmhosts he will have mutas left, which make hellion runbys really a mineral sink, as in they all get intercepted. (At least that happens to mine, maybe doing something wrong). And my main problem is always that if I go mass vikings he comes with ultras or simply overwelms with mutas, if I go thors he gets broodlords/vipers/more swarmhosts, and with mass tanks he gets also air. Since for zerg tech switching is so fast I am never able to not get hardcountered.
Get more Ravens and some Vikings (I guess you always have a few Thors). PDDs also block Muta shots giving your few Thors and your Vikings free shots on them. If he builds Broodlords and/or Vipers, you can snipe both with the Vikings. If he brings Corruptors to guard the Broodlords, PDD again... it also blocks their shots. 
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On November 26 2013 17:05 Porishan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 05:53 Bagi wrote:
Anyone having more success in mech TvP post patch?
I personally have been doing a variation of the 2-2 tank/hellbat push where instead of adding vikings I go pure banshee (assuming no heavy stargate play) and so far it seems quite powerful. I just open typical reaper expand into 1-1-1 into mine/marine/hellion drop depending on what I scout then switch into techlab and never stop building banshees. Use the banshees to deal some damage if the toss neglects his defenses and possibly delay the third, but keep them alive. Cloak is obviously necessary to avoid getting feedbacked.
So when the big push hits once you are nearing maxed you'll probably have 6-7 banshees at least which actually really help dealing with immortals while your hellbat/tank mops up the rest. The only thing they have to kill your banshees is usually archons which can be avoided with some micro and HT/stalker which die very very quickly to tank fire. A few times I've had very even battles where all I'm left with are a few tanks and the banshees, yet the stalkers they warp in can't really scratch them and I end up doing major damage such at sniping the third anyway.
After this push I transition into viking/raven but considering that banshees are only 25 gas more than vikings and supply/build time isn't as big of a limiting factor in these timings, they seem to have great synergy with the push. The only time I really get thrashed is when the toss managed to hide his stargates from me, or when I lose to some random 2-base blink all in. Could u please add some reps?
http://drop.sc/366238
Here's one I just played, not pro level obviously but the protoss was a former GM fwiw.
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On November 12 2013 03:17 fried_rice wrote:
Time to talk about maps:
I play defensive mech, Master league, got placed into Diamond this season, should be promoted back soon as long as I can figure out the maps.
Last season I thought Yeonsu and Polar Night would be horrible mech maps but they are actually alright (maybe the best mech maps in the current map pool?).
I don't like Derelict Watcher as any non TvZ matchup seems to be quite difficult on it, it's also a dumb map overall. TvP on it is a nightmare as taking a 4th seems impossible without getting some other base sniped.
Frost seems to be absolutely terrible but to be fair I only played a single mech game on it (and I won), it just looks scary with all the bases and attack paths. So I veto'd it right away last season.
Star Station...mehh, I don't like it, expanding on it is kind of weird BUT with the new version it's harder to sneak in ninja bases and it's also easier to deny/kill enemy bases on it. I'm still not sure if I should play it, if i figure out the key points to defend on it, it might not turn out so bad.
Belshir...I never liked it, it's also old and kind of dumb as well.
Alterzim....LOL, played a TvP on it and it's so fucking huge, jesus christ. It was horrible because Terran can't just spawn units anywhere on the map and the fact that mech is actually much slower than bio just makes it all worse. I guess it's not too bad in NON-TvP matchups, where you can actually defend bases without comitting your whole army to that.
So basically I'm kind lost here guys, I must summon the help of Dzerzhinsky, Lyyna, Avilo and other high level defensive mech players, which ones would you veto? So far mine are:
Belshir
Derelict
Alterzim
I really wanna veto Frost but I'm not sure about Derelict and Belshir though. My problem with these maps overall is playing TvP on them (but I guess that's a problem with mech in general >.<), I don't mind the other two matchups so much. So far my only "sure" veto is Alterzim, I can change the other two if you guys can convince me of it :D
A bit of a delyed response to this, but I wanted to get some games in on the new map before replying.
My three vetos are: Belshir, Yeonsu, and Polar.
For Belshir I've always felt that it was too difficult to hold bases beyond a third, since it opened so many unique attack paths to your different bases.
For Yeonsu, taking the third on the horizontal made it pretty difficult to hold since they could come in from so many angles, and taking it at the triangle madwe the fourth difficult to take. Primarily though I struggled in TvT on this map, since there was so much space to cover to deny drops, and so much room for bio to deny bases while securing 5 or 6 of their own relatively safely.
For Polar, in all match ups found it really difficult to deny drops since you basically need to surround your entire main in turrets to achieve it -- an expensive proposition. In TvZ, I also found that while I would win the game if I could secure a 4th, this was easier said than done.
Of the four remaining.
I've always had troubles in non-TvZ on Derelict, but recently I've really been turning that around with more Banshees in my TvP, and better unit splitting/positioning in TvT. Once you can hold your own bases it isn't so bad, since they can't mass expand themselves, and sniping their bases isn't too difficult most of the time.
Star Station is my worst map this season, due to it being so easy to cheese on in TvP, so easy to drop on in TvT, and it being a bit tricky to hold on once you take a 4th in TvZ. But it's still nearly at 50% winrate, so not too bad.
Frost is fine for me. But I must admit that I frequently take a hidden base in TvT and TvP on it, just because it can be tricky to get a 5th base up and I don't want to be stuck on 4 for too long. Where I really struggle on this map is in vertical spawns. It's so hard to expand horizontally if they want to stop you. All it takes is a few Ultras, or a few Immortals, or a couple Medis of bio, and the base is gone.
The new map, Alterzim, is actually my best map so far this season. The safety of the natural, and to a fair extend the third, has allowed me to expand quickly and get into the late game where i'm comfortable. The size has also made hidden bases very successful, allowing me to have 2 or sometimes 3 up and running before too long. Though on the downside of that, I did lose to a Zerg who took 4 hidden bases on my side of the map and mined them out before I noticed...
I haven't found the openness of the new map to be a major problem so far. I just use well positioned PFs to create chokes of my own.
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Figured I may as well lend a voice to the TvP mech discussion, was GM Terran on NA last season.
This season I have started exclusively playing mech all matchups, just because I'm damn sick of bio having played it for 3 years. Mech TvP now i think revolves around the banshee, simply because of the insane DPS and high armor from shared upgrades.
If you can do a lot of damage with drops, runbys, banshee harass and keep powering up additional CC's (orbitals AND planetaries are really important) and eventually get to a fully upgraded mech army, you can be almost unstoppable.
The trickiest things to deal with are warp prism harass and concentrated attacks - if you take damage early the protoss army will simply snowball, so you have to be the aggressor. With mech now, quite simply, the old adage 'the best defense is a good offense' has never been so relevant.
The best end-game army I have found is a mixture of ghosts, hellbats, thors and banshees (with a raven and couple vikings to snipe obs). Tanks are OK sometimes, but highly situational.
Here are 3 replays from my games this morning demonstrating these ideas (2 wins and 1 loss, which was a result of horrible pathing and decision making in one battle, but still good to watch):
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4416904
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4416905
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4416903
The last game is the more refined of the three, and incorporates reaper harass, hellion runbys + mine harass, banshee harass and hellbat drops within the first 10-12 minutes of the game. Let me know what you think!
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On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
A bit of a delyed response to this, but I wanted to get some games in on the new map before replying.
My three vetos are: Belshir, Yeonsu, and Polar.
For Belshir I've always felt that it was too difficult to hold bases beyond a third, since it opened so many unique attack paths to your different bases.
Yeah, I think belshir is a no-brainer.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:For Yeonsu, taking the third on the horizontal made it pretty difficult to hold since they could come in from so many angles, and taking it at the triangle madwe the fourth difficult to take. Primarily though I struggled in TvT on this map, since there was so much space to cover to deny drops, and so much room for bio to deny bases while securing 5 or 6 of their own relatively safely.
I don't think Yeonsu is too bad, i'm 50/50 on it. Like yourself, I think TvT vs bio is the hardest on this map, I was actually going 8-8-8 every TvT on it, but I get so few Terrans on the ladder that I don't even mind it that much, when I get a TvT on it I just play more agressive than usual.
I like this map because it's pretty small and Z/P can't just get a billion bases late game, so if you manage to get a 4th late-game becomes pretty straightforward.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
For Polar, in all match ups found it really difficult to deny drops since you basically need to surround your entire main in turrets to achieve it -- an expensive proposition. In TvZ, I also found that while I would win the game if I could secure a 4th, this was easier said than done.
This is spot on, but for whatever reason I have a a good win-rate on this map which made me not want to veto it, I usually delay my third on this one, I try to get it after my turret-ring is done and once I can shutdown the natural's choke with a wall and forward PF. Like you said, easier said than done, but when I do manage to do that I can get the 3th and 4th for free, 5th base is a nightmare to take though.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
I've always had troubles in non-TvZ on Derelict, but recently I've really been turning that around with more Banshees in my TvP, and better unit splitting/positioning in TvT. Once you can hold your own bases it isn't so bad, since they can't mass expand themselves, and sniping their bases isn't too difficult most of the time.
I've always struggled in non-TvZ on it as well, it's my worst winrate out of all HOTS maps, in TvT allocating the correct number of Tanks to defend vulnerable spots is quite hard/impossible, and they can also siege/drop your third without much trouble which was really frustrating for me. For TvP I find that they could always snipe your 4th and run away or in general just keep running around you in circles, in case you park your army at your 4th it seems that they would just hit your main choke poke point or get an easy 5th and transition into air, the fact that you can't actually defend a spot without having YOUR WHOLE ARMY in one place in TvP make this map very frustrating for me. Considering it will most likely be out of the pool on the next season I really don't want to give it another go 
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
Star Station is my worst map this season, due to it being so easy to cheese on in TvP, so easy to drop on in TvT, and it being a bit tricky to hold on once you take a 4th in TvZ. But it's still nearly at 50% winrate, so not too bad.
I'm 10-3 on it (very low sample size, I know). Taking a 4th on it without getting destroyed is pretty hard, I still haven't figured out how to properly defend the choke that connects your natural-third.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
Frost is fine for me. But I must admit that I frequently take a hidden base in TvT and TvP on it, just because it can be tricky to get a 5th base up and I don't want to be stuck on 4 for too long. Where I really struggle on this map is in vertical spawns. It's so hard to expand horizontally if they want to stop you. All it takes is a few Ultras, or a few Immortals, or a couple Medis of bio, and the base is gone.
When I first looked at Frost I thought "fuck this" and instantly veto'd it, your stream recently inspired me to play it on it though, I'm 7-4 on it so far and I also try to get hidden a base on it, sometimes two. In TvZ I'll always get an early Viking to clean overlords and a couple of patroling hellions to clear scouting zerglings to deny vision which helps to sucessfully put a hidden CC up, I'll grab the gasses ASAP and mule the shit out of the minerals because against a good player the CCs will get sniped eventually.
On November 27 2013 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
The new map, Alterzim, is actually my best map so far this season. The safety of the natural, and to a fair extend the third, has allowed me to expand quickly and get into the late game where i'm comfortable. The size has also made hidden bases very successful, allowing me to have 2 or sometimes 3 up and running before too long. Though on the downside of that, I did lose to a Zerg who took 4 hidden bases on my side of the map and mined them out before I noticed...
I haven't found the openness of the new map to be a major problem so far. I just use well positioned PFs to create chokes of my own.
Wow, really? This maps just looks like winning TvP is impossible on it, I only played 2 games on it so far (2 TvPs) and I just got destroyed which made me not want to play this map very much. One game I got assfucked by warp prism @ my back natural (not enough turret coverage, my mistake), and the in the other one I just got stomped by a huge air-HT deathball which looked invincible considering the guy had a billion bases and could just remax and own me even if I won the fight, considering I could never get enough bank or infrastructure to comfortably play super-late game because of Zealot/DT warpins happening everyfuckingwhere. He also had a lot of cannons which made harassing impossible.
So far my vetos are Belshir and Derelict, I never liked these maps and they will most likely be out of the pool next season, I got one veto left which I'm undecided on.
Thanks a lot for your input, it makes me feel better knowing we have pretty much the same thoughts and struggles regarding the current mappool.
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About harasing: I saw Nathanias doing a 4port banshee build , while holding the front with tanks etc. He even did this vs Jaedong and could do some serious damage. He lost it at the end but he held out for a good amount of time. He tried this several times on stream and had some succesful games. If the opponent goes for Mutas he just pumped some vikings which did pretty good with the new upgrades. He then switched into a more factory based comp. He was sure this style/build can become viable.
Do you guys feel the same? Im really thinking of doing this too (not with 4ports though just more harass with Hellions and couple of Banshees in general) cause I really need to work on doing damage to the Zerg with guerilla attacks.
He also said some things about mech that opened my eyes. Something like you obviously need to do harass and that mech in general shouldnt be an easy playstyle, cause then you could just build some tanks and would be safe against almost anything. He also said most mech players have mostly low APM like Goody or Strelok and that they need this APM to macro or they are macro oriented in general so theres less room for heavy micro and that this is a problem. This leads to the point where you have to harass to do damage and gain an advantage.
I cant get this together exactly now maybe I said some things wrong or misunderstood them. Maybe I search for the VOD/Twitch video so I can post it here. It was really enlightening.
EDIT: Hmm strange. Seems like you cant watch past broadcasts if you didnt subscribed to his channel. So I guess its useless to post the link. I hope someone from this thread watched his stream too and can confirm this.
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On November 28 2013 10:47 Tresher wrote:
He also said most mech players have mostly low APM like Goody or Strelok and that they need this APM to macro or they are macro oriented in general so theres less room for heavy micro and that this is a problem.
The problem is that mech has very little agressive potential when compared to bio, there's no way to snipe tech with drops or threaten the enemy to keep him in his base. All you can try to do is some cute hellion/banshee harass both of which can easily stopped by 1 piece of static D. Past early game all you can do is defend and macro up as being active on the map is very risky, get caught slightly out of position ONCE and you lose the game.
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Hey guys got a tvt question. So i played a tvt on frost with the classic bio vs mech matchup . I was lucky enough to secure my third while deflecting all his drops. Right as i was maxing out and pushing he revealed a few BCs and a few more vikes than I had. I killed his ground army but lost all my AA so we both ended up basically loosing our armies. Starting from scratch what would you build to combat a bio + BC army? He was producing mostly marauder MMM with a few BCs every cycle. Since my tank/thor count was basically reset and I didn't feel I had the time to make ravens or tanks, I went hellion hellbat widow mine viking and edged out the victory because i was able to BFH his mineral lines. So I know tanks on the ground and raven viking in the air is always the ideal composition, but if your unit counts get reset, if there an alternative composition you can rush to? for example thor hebllat viking, widowmine tank, or is it better to just start from scratch with tank hellbat viking untill you can stabalize? Thanks in advance for all the advice!
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I decided that my 3rd map veto will be Star Station as taking a 4th on is a nightmare regardless.
To the guy above me: if your unit count gets reset you are dead 99% of the time =P an air transition is to be expected from good bio players, you are supposed to have a good raven/viking count by the time he starts transitioning. Spamming turrets everywhere is good as well.
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I disagree.
Thor Drops / Banshees are great at killing off bases after the 4rth, Thor Drops really slaughter tech structures fast, 8 Hellion drop of which half transforms and half assaults workers is REALLY dangerous because it requires a very careful response.
Just a lot of people don't dare to take the risk. It's not like bio drops in which you can lose stuff, with the exception of hellbat/-ions, you must aim to do damage UNTIL the response arrives, and immidiatly pull back afterwards.
If the opponent has air tech, you now have pretty good vikings and Thor Medivac which deals surprisingly well with air tech.
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On November 28 2013 19:47 SC2Toastie wrote:
I disagree.
Thor Drops / Banshees are great at killing off bases after the 4rth, Thor Drops really slaughter tech structures fast, 8 Hellion drop of which half transforms and half assaults workers is REALLY dangerous because it requires a very careful response.
Just a lot of people don't dare to take the risk. It's not like bio drops in which you can lose stuff, with the exception of hellbat/-ions, you must aim to do damage UNTIL the response arrives, and immidiatly pull back afterwards.
If the opponent has air tech, you now have pretty good vikings and Thor Medivac which deals surprisingly well with air tech.
Like you said, these things cost way too much and besides Thor drops (400/300 resources), all of these get shut down by proper defensive play. I do a lot of hellion->hellbat and banshee harass whenever I have the chance, and I've used a lot of Thor drops in the past but the point still is: these will get shut down easily in which case you're better off having these units at home defending and setting yourself up for a comfortable late game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should just always turtle but it just happens to be the most reliable way to play mech as it is. I've won games by having multi-pronged banshee squads clean up the mineral lines of 3 different protoss bases while I used hellion as a distraction and to pull him out of position and I'm always looking for opportunities to do that kind of stuff, but these cases are the exception to the rule, in 90% of the games my opponents won't leave me any openings to harass them and I'm forced into massive turtling.
Oh yeah, and I've lost more games because my hellions and banshees were out on the map trying to do cute stuff instead of being at home to defend when the Protoss randomly decided to a-move into my choke than I've won because I was harassing effectively.
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How do you deal with mass Ultralisk as a Mech Terran? Air works but it take a very long to kill the Ultras so they can kill your bases in the meantime. Thors and tanks work, but only in a choke point. In the open field Ultras kill everything that can not kite.
The problem is that sooner or later, you can not hide behind your planetarys any more. You need to take a 5 or a 6th base, or kill some of his. And then your Thor/Tanks are suddenly out in the open and get massacred by Ultras. What is the solution to this? Transition into sky only, no ground troops?
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Here's one I just played, not pro level obviously but the protoss was a former GM fwiw.
Hey thanks for posting the replay. Great play!
Can you tell me in which situations you prefer Thors over Tanks and secondly how many Hellbats do you always try to maintain?
I agree with everybody that Banshee's seem important against Immortals but I think it get's very dangerous when you in any situation do not have any Hellbats.
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On November 29 2013 03:31 MockHamill wrote:
How do you deal with mass Ultralisk as a Mech Terran? Air works but it take a very long to kill the Ultras so they can kill your bases in the meantime. Thors and tanks work, but only in a choke point. In the open field Ultras kill everything that can not kite.
The problem is that sooner or later, you can not hide behind your planetarys any more. You need to take a 5 or a 6th base, or kill some of his. And then your Thor/Tanks are suddenly out in the open and get massacred by Ultras. What is the solution to this? Transition into sky only, no ground troops?
Unsieged tank itself
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Curious vs MVP from IEM Singapore, game 1 and 2 both mech
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315851
Happy vs. DongRaeGu from IEM Singapore, game 2 mech starts at 25:22
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315871
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I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and interested in your opinions.
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player.
2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single?
3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one:
Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help.
4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven.
5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack?
I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catch off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map
thx for your help in advance
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On November 29 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:Curious vs MVP from IEM Singapore, game 1 and 2 both mech + Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315851 Happy vs. DongRaeGu from IEM Singapore, game 2 mech starts at 25:22 + Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315871
Wow MvP hit the timing perfectly in game 2 against Curious. Maxed at 15 minutes with 2-2 on mech units!
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On November 30 2013 05:46 t0n!ght wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:Curious vs MVP from IEM Singapore, game 1 and 2 both mech + Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315851 Happy vs. DongRaeGu from IEM Singapore, game 2 mech starts at 25:22 + Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/c/3315871 Wow MvP hit the timing perfectly in game 2 against Curious. Maxed at 15 minutes with 2-2 on mech units!
yeah this games were quite impressive but i ask myself what he would do if he faced swarmhosts. It was quite impressive but i think curious didn't play that well. I hope he will face DRG then we can see what he can really do.
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EPT
