EPT[L][D]HotS Terran Mech Resources/Q&A - Page 27
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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t0n!ght
57 Posts
On December 03 2013 16:41 Doc Brawler wrote: With the new patch I just switched to mech vs protoss and its soo easy! Zealot, immortal archon melts to ghost tank hellbat, Sky toss is the only thing you have to watch out for but with vikes all super upgraded its ezpz. For people who want to switch basically do what mvp did + ghosts, and don't play like avilo (why turtle when tank hellbat is so strong in the mid game). Macro the shit out of hellbat tank on two base with 4 factory(TL+reactor+reactor+TL). Add a sprinkle of ghosts + starport units and go walk all over their third or take your own third and max on ghost(+a few medivac) tank viking. Hellbats OP as shit vs toss: non-armored so immortals don't do shit, hard counter zealots, tanks and thors protect them from ranged units and sky units... I hope they don't nerf terran again, cause this is definitely gonna get big in 2014! I'm glad you believe in this as much as I do  . Yeah BF hellbats trade nicely against zealots.I play as agressive as I can with this style. Because I just don't like defensive play. What is your push timing? What worked best for me is to push at 14 minute with around 20 hellbats and 10+ tanks. Btw I think MVP went for the 2 base all in because his early harass achieved not a lot. And he was already significantly behind. This build however is just really strong if you just go for macro play. I like to get my third at 6:30 and then just push as hard as I can in midgame. Lategame with around 10 cloakshees is fun too . | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 03 2013 16:41 Doc Brawler wrote: With the new patch I just switched to mech vs protoss and its soo easy! Zealot, immortal archon melts to ghost tank hellbat, Sky toss is the only thing you have to watch out for but with vikes all super upgraded its ezpz. For people who want to switch basically do what mvp did + ghosts, and don't play like avilo (why turtle when tank hellbat is so strong in the mid game). Macro the shit out of hellbat tank on two base with 4 factory(TL+reactor+reactor+TL). Add a sprinkle of ghosts + starport units and go walk all over their third or take your own third and max on ghost(+a few medivac) tank viking. Hellbats OP as shit vs toss: non-armored so immortals don't do shit, hard counter zealots, tanks and thors protect them from ranged units and sky units... I hope they don't nerf terran again, cause this is definitely gonna get big in 2014! Wait until you get a toss opponent who bothers to flank you. For most people here mech is definately not impossible vs toss. But really, hellbats op as shit vs toss? Either you are playing way below your skill level, or you are soon back here after a few more games that it isn't that simple. The main advantage you have when meching vs toss is that toss aren't used to it, and in fact the vast majority of them are just plain horrible against it. And even then they have a good enough chance to win. Wait until you meet a toss who can properly react to mech. Luckily there aren't too many of them. Once in some random pro cast I saw a toss who warped in 10 zealots or so to defend against a 10 BFH runby. That was a GM toss, who was mineral starved. There was no reason whatsoever not to warp in stalkers. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
I saw you video with mario btw, very informational! | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On December 03 2013 17:52 Sissors wrote: Wait until you get a toss opponent who bothers to flank you. For most people here mech is definately not impossible vs toss. But really, hellbats op as shit vs toss? Either you are playing way below your skill level, or you are soon back here after a few more games that it isn't that simple. The main advantage you have when meching vs toss is that toss aren't used to it, and in fact the vast majority of them are just plain horrible against it. And even then they have a good enough chance to win. Wait until you meet a toss who can properly react to mech. Luckily there aren't too many of them. Once in some random pro cast I saw a toss who warped in 10 zealots or so to defend against a 10 BFH runby. That was a GM toss, who was mineral starved. There was no reason whatsoever not to warp in stalkers. In my first couple games, I actually got flanked alot. It took about 10 games on ladder of getting owned HARD by toss to iron out my build before I went on an undefeated tear. Mostly it came down to scouting with BFH as much as possible. I'm not sure how toss players can react better to mech. Almost everyone gets into mass immortal archon, and either goes stargate, or mass robo once ghosts come out. I was definitely trollin a bit bout the Hellbats, but they are such a good mineral sink vs toss, and they limit the amount of zealots they can make. I wouldn't know what to do with all those extra minerals... unlike mech they cant make macro nexi for the chrono... I'm sure I'll get messed up by "proper" anti-mech play eventually. I encountered a few players who used two separate army groups of collosi, immortal ect.. really effectively, and kited hellbats and tanks. I disagree when you say mech's biggest advantage is opponents not being used to it, I think mechs biggest advantages lie in range, vision and imo a more powerful ground army...Range: Ghost > Templar, Vike > all but tempest, tank > all. I don't even consider mech to be immobile relative to a toss, unless we are talking about blink stalkers, but even then BFH are faster and don't trade terribly for 100 minerals. Tanks can generally remained unsieged and siege so late in battles with hellbats buffering and emp clearing shields anyway. | ||
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t0n!ght
57 Posts
On December 03 2013 17:58 Doc Brawler wrote: I'd have to check replays for timings, but once I get +2 attack I feel safe to move around. I prefer right now not to take fast third and spend ALL my money on units. Its to the point where I feel confident that if the protoss takes a third before me, I'll have the better army. I'm usually close to maxed out by 14 min and is right about when I take my third (land OC) and push out a min or two later maxed with mostly hellbats, tanks, and very few: ghost vike medivac. I periodically suicide a single hellion to check for toss composition/upgrades. Most games do go long and my idea is to get as many tanks and ghosts as possible on the ground and add focus on starport (vikes banshees) units as the game goes on. I don't like BCs or ravens yet, unless they are able to increment out carrier tempest. At this point I'm not sure what to do super late game cause most games don't last that long. I saw you video with mario btw, very informational! Haha this is hillarious. What you are doing sounds exactly like the SuperNova build I kept telling you about but was never able to show you! He stayed on 2 base until 14 minutes and then pushed out with 2-0 hellbat/tank and took a double expansion. Yeah the coaching with mario was definetly worth getting up at 4am in the morning^^. Haha this is why I sound so grumpy during the first 20 minutes of the coaching. Add me ingame mate! We should have a chat and watch some replays sometime .. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
1) The timing of your 3rd CC is never a set thing, especially with these openings : depends a lot of any damage you did, how safe you feel, what's your follow-up, etc... 2) Both are good, with the obvious difference that the 1 armory style is 'safer' in the midgame due to higher units count, but the double armory means you have a huge lategame superiority : once you have your mech/air 2/2 your army become insanely better than your opponent's. 3) The 111 (with an expand at some point) -> 2 fact -> armory (1 or 2) is standard. Often you'll see a 3rd CC at this point, but see answer 1), it depends a lot of the game and your style 4) In the midgame, i use hellion/bat (with the transf uppgrade) / tank / viking, with 1 raven + 1 banshee from my opening (really good to have). Later, i'll usually add a couple thors and banshees, to keep and/or exploit my air superioriy, with the endgame goal being to add a tons of ravens I don't like medivacs with mech - especially because i don't really like mass hellbats sdrop style 5) Again, matter of style. I personally never attack and was always able to make it work, but at pro lvl you'll often see a combination of timing attacks (with 2 uppgrades for example), or juste waiting for the 1st good opening to grab a strong position : in mech vs mech, they often go for the second, not aiming for a planned timing but instead trying to find a weakness in the opponent position to crush their army and start the push If you want to push 'early' (2/2 for example), aim for a basic army, things like ravens are better if you aim to wait a long time and get a tons in TvT | ||
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Telon Petrides
Canada58 Posts
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Taefox
1533 Posts
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Dzerzhinsky
Scotland327 Posts
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iliketurtles
Germany6 Posts
On December 09 2013 11:08 Dzerzhinsky wrote: I made a replay pack. 113 games, all mech: http://www.reddit.com/r/AllThingsTerran/comments/1sfhj3/mech_replay_pack_high_masters/ nice, thx. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2013 22:25 Porishan wrote: Can someone please sum for me all mech game since buff patch? I will update OP asap I could't fallow the last few tournaments either,so if there were any TvZ, TvP mech games other then the ones already posted it would be cool if somebody posted them. I know Maru had a couple of mech games in the latest GLS tournament but since it's behind a pay wall, well, not very accessible. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
If we ignore the opening, taking bases, taking gases, turrets in mineral line etc part my basic build order is: 1. 3 Factories 2. Double Armouries 3. Ghost Acedemy and Ghost production from 1 Rax. 4. Increase to 6 Factories. 5. Add 2 more Ghosts Rax for a total of 3 Ghost Raxes. 6. Add 3 Reactor Starports in order to figh air switches. So in the lategame I end up with 6 Factories (5 techlabs, 1 reactor) 3 Tech Raxes for Ghost production 3 Reactor Starports for Viking production. Is this a good general sequence and setup for TvP, if not what should be changed? The lategame compositon that I aim for is 15+ tanks, 10-15 ghost, 15+ vikings and the rest in hellbats. If he goes heavy air I add in a few Ravens. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On December 10 2013 23:54 MockHamill wrote: In which order do you add on production and integrate upgrades in mech TvP? If we ignore the opening, taking bases, taking gases, turrets in mineral line etc part my basic build order is: 1. 3 Factories 2. Double Armouries 3. Ghost Acedemy and Ghost production from 1 Rax. 4. Increase to 6 Factories. 5. Add 2 more Ghosts Rax for a total of 3 Ghost Raxes. 6. Add 3 Reactor Starports in order to figh air switches. So in the lategame I end up with 6 Factories (5 techlabs, 1 reactor) 3 Tech Raxes for Ghost production 3 Reactor Starports for Viking production. Is this a good general sequence and setup for TvP, if not what should be changed? The lategame compositon that I aim for is 15+ tanks, 10-15 ghost, 15+ vikings and the rest in hellbats. If he goes heavy air I add in a few Ravens. I would suggest that you add a TLed Starport way earlier (before or after the Ghost Academy?) and later add more Starport with TLs instead of Reactors (1 or 2 with Reactor may be fine). Ravens do really well against Protoss now. Also Protoss doesn't need to go heavy air, just get a few Tempests, for you to need the Ravens. On a sidenote... when playing Mech I think you don't need that many Ghosts. I think 1 or 2 TL Raxes should be enough. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab) 1 Starport (tlab, usually for banshees early on) 2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab or 2tlab, depends on Protoss composition) 3 Starports (2tlab/1reactor) It usually goes in that order but sometimes I'll change it up a bit depending on what the Protoss is doing, I like to play a very reactive style so sometimes I'll change the order in which I get my buildings. So I end up with 4 Factories and 4 Staports, later on I add another couple of factories, I don't build any Ghosts in TvP these days, I use all that money to get earlier double armory and Ravens and I also like to get a few Thors regardless in my composition as well, even if the enemy is not going air, Thors have awesome HP for their cost and supply, I usually don't go over 8ish tanks in TvP. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 11 2013 00:57 fried_rice wrote: Well, there are many ways you can play mech, with varying compositions so if that's what works for you then you can stick with it I guess, but like the other guy said, Techlab starports are better IMO. Here's how I go: 2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab) 1 Starport (tlab, usually for banshees early on) 2 Factories (1reactor/1tlab or 2tlab, depends on Protoss composition) 3 Starports (2tlab/1reactor) It usually goes in that order but sometimes I'll change it up a bit depending on what the Protoss is doing, I like to play a very reactive style so sometimes I'll change the order in which I get my buildings. So I end up with 4 Factories and 4 Staports, later on I add another couple of factories, I don't build any Ghosts in TvP these days, I use all that money to get earlier double armory and Ravens and I also like to get a few Thors regardless in my composition as well, even if the enemy is not going air, Thors have awesome HP for their cost and supply, I usually don't go over 8ish tanks in TvP. Is that not really weak against mass immortals before you can get your Raven/Banshee count up? In my experience Ghosts are great against everything but Tempest, while seeker missile is really good against opponents that can not micro, but really weak against those who can. Tanks are much more pop effecient against Protoss ground compared to Thors, provided they have enough ghost and hellbat support. The only problem is getting there + not being out of position even once. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On December 11 2013 01:20 MockHamill wrote: Is that not really weak against mass immortals before you can get your Raven/Banshee count up? In my experience Ghosts are great against everything but Tempest, while seeker missile is really good against opponents that can not micro, but really weak against those who can. Tanks are much more pop effecient against Protoss ground compared to Thors, provided they have enough ghost and hellbat support. The only problem is getting there + not being out of position even once. If the opponent is going MASS Immortals(I've actually had people in master league make NOTHING BUT IMMORTALS, so yeah, it can happen) I'll just make a shitload of Banshees and increase my Hellbat to Tank ratio(get 2tlab/2reactors instead of 3tlab/1reactor), in the early/early-mid game you can use your banshees (with proper focus firing and micro) to quickly deplete Immortal shields. Even as few as 3 banshees will quickly eat up an Immortal's shields, and then you can attack the next one and let your other units finish them off. Later on when you start getting Ravens (I always get Corvid Reactor before producing them), it's not much different from EMP, with the difference that Seeker Missiles can actually kill stuff and it's splash damage overlap (both don't apply to EMP). Also 8 Ghosts won't kill anything, but 4 Ravens with full energy have the potential to completely destroy any protoss ground army and you'll be more than ready for any early air switch (doesn't matter if its Tempest, Carrier or VR). As for the micro part, if you blanket EMP a Protoss army they can just pullback and regen shields, it's no different from Ravens. With Seekers you have to develop a "sense" of when to use them, if the Protoss engages into you, you fire one of them in the middle of their army, and only start spamming if they actually commit to attacking you and won't pullback. If they keep pulling back then I don't care, they have to engage you and commist at one point, all you have to do is be mindful of your raven energy, people are just too used with being wasteful with their EMPs  | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats Some curious discoveries I made via the Thor vs Tank ratio 1. Why 4? 4 shots is needed to 1 shot an immortal with depleted shields 4 shots nicely Insta-gibs a clump of 3-6 HT's 4 Tanks is needed to defend the location between the third and the natural, covering the most ground, yet having tanks spaced closely together that they can still help everyone out. 4 Tanks are a lot easier to control than 12 when you wanna make sure they dont shoot the zealots until eveything else is dead. You can't shift click 12 tanks without some of their smartfire to target zealots when all the shift clicked targets are dead. Also prevents Collosus from taking potshots at your Thors, if you don't have banshees or vikings in position to deal with them yet. Why the rest Thors? Tank DPS and Range so good!! you say In theory yes it really is, but most of the time it's not that high... against Immortal/Archon/Zealot. All 3 of those units take reduced damge from tanks, and the protoss is only going to have enough stalkers for about 4 tanks to focus down before the immortals get in range. Thors have at least double the DPS of tanks vs Archons and Zealots. Archons don't clump enough for splash to be useful, Zealots get close fast Thors build 60 seconds Tanks in 45, This means that the Thor is 50% more time efficien. You are getting the most bang for your factory essentially. It takes 1.5 as many techlab factories to max out with tanks. In a 4 base vs 4 base scenario, that's like saving 350 gas and ~5 minutes before you max out. Tanks don't have DPS when they're dead. Having a lot of Thors means that the high DPS your tanks have will STILL BE THERE when the immortals shields are down, since your 4 tanks (should hopefully be still alive). Thors are really tanky, and it helps tremendously if the archons auto target the thors, while your hellbats that come in from the side get right in front of the immortals to maximize their splash. Later on in late-late game, THAT's when you add in Ghosts and Ravens. At 3-4 bases, You want to save as much money as you can from having fast production per supply (building Thors over tanks), and not having to invest in more starports and raven upgrades until you are 3/3. So while you are on 2 base going on 3, and adding your 4 techlab factories, you want to make 4 Tanks first (since they cost less gas/time than thors), and once ur 3rd's gas production kicks in, THEN you want to up your rate of armysize/time as well as getting a solid compositions that gives the most power and requires the least additional upgrades/tech buildings The one weakness the Thor has is that it doesn't do so hot if the protoss has a critical mass of collosus. However, if he's making collosus, he's not making Immortals, which are by far way stronger vs Mech until Protoss get's like 7 or so collosus, which won't happen when he's on 3 base unless he gets pure zealot collosus (which is a terrible composition). Either adding more banshees or vikings easily solves the collosus problem. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On December 11 2013 06:20 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: So I figured out the best mid-late game composition vs Protoss is actually 7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats hmm... I am a bit skeptical bc in my experience thor/bat hasn't held its own against zelot archon immortal but maybe I am doing something wrong... I havn't tried incorporating so many banshees so that could be the reason. I will try and report back. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On December 11 2013 12:50 Doc Brawler wrote: hmm... I am a bit skeptical bc in my experience thor/bat hasn't held its own against zelot archon immortal but maybe I am doing something wrong... I havn't tried incorporating so many banshees so that could be the reason. I will try and report back. I usually get a fast third vs protoss and do constant hellbat drops. I realized that unless the Protoss has amazing micro (not that often nowadays), he will lose money every time I hellbat drop even if I get just 2 to 3 probe kills, and assuming half the time my medivac can get out alive. This is cause toss has to Pull all his workers before I land, and most of the time they give up doing that... cause I save my boost for when he tries to run hahaha. And then the probes stuck in the assimilator are usually free kills. Then he has to put them all back, and probably forgets a warpgate cycle/pylon/forgets about something else screwing up his macro. So given the expected yield of a hellbat drop is always in your favor, it makes sense to do it all the time! And he needs at least 3 cannons to make it inefficient for me, and in that case I just take another base (3 cannons = 1 CC). Essentially, this composition is really good if you can maintain the economic advantage. And yeah, Banshees are a reallly big factor. Think about it this way, he goes double robo (or even triple) robo, and you react to get an extra starport for banshees, or getting banshees + drops, whatever. Banshees can do direct and Indirect damage Direct: Obviously good vs Immortal shields with their double attacks. Money spent in Immortals = Money not spent on Banshee defense. As long as you keep harassing him with 3 to 4 banshees at a time, he is forced to warp in stalkers, which suck against everything, and banshees don't trade too badly vs stalkers in small engagements. Add more banshees, he adds more stalkers, ad continuum As long as you don't die in your transition to more banshees, him staying on double/triple robo production is a losing strategy. As long as you discovered when he committed to his robo tech path, and adapted accordingly, he is eventually forced to get Anti Banshee units, the only good one being the blink stalker, which are a loooot worse vs Mech in HotS (tank buffs, hellbats, shared upgrades etc..). HT's dont work because you can constantly decloak to drain your energy, Archons aren't mobile enough. He can add a Stargate, but guess what, you've forced him to switch tech paths After he committed. And now there's no way to support his X-Warp gates, 2 or 3 Robos AND a Stargate. Especially if he also committed to Templar tech, that means he has to use his Warpgates to get gas heavy units since he's already commited X ammount of gas to Templar Tech. And having a few late game phoenixes aren't gonna do didly squat in big engagements. They'll die from the Thor volley before the battle even starts.... Sorry for the long read, soft counters are sometimes work in weird ways... | ||
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