EPT[L][D]HotS Terran Mech Resources/Q&A - Page 28
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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t0n!ght
57 Posts
On December 11 2013 06:20 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: So I figured out the best mid-late game composition vs Protoss is actually 7 or more Thors Exactly 4 Tanks 5 or more banshees Rest hellbats, for supply efficiency trade More Thors or Banshees for hellbats Some curious discoveries I made via the Thor vs Tank ratio 1. Why 4? 4 shots is needed to 1 shot an immortal with depleted shields 4 shots nicely Insta-gibs a clump of 3-6 HT's 4 Tanks is needed to defend the location between the third and the natural, covering the most ground, yet having tanks spaced closely together that they can still help everyone out. 4 Tanks are a lot easier to control than 12 when you wanna make sure they dont shoot the zealots until eveything else is dead. You can't shift click 12 tanks without some of their smartfire to target zealots when all the shift clicked targets are dead. Also prevents Collosus from taking potshots at your Thors, if you don't have banshees or vikings in position to deal with them yet. Why the rest Thors? Tank DPS and Range so good!! you say In theory yes it really is, but most of the time it's not that high... against Immortal/Archon/Zealot. All 3 of those units take reduced damge from tanks, and the protoss is only going to have enough stalkers for about 4 tanks to focus down before the immortals get in range. Thors have at least double the DPS of tanks vs Archons and Zealots. Archons don't clump enough for splash to be useful, Zealots get close fast Thors build 60 seconds Tanks in 45, This means that the Thor is 50% more time efficien. You are getting the most bang for your factory essentially. It takes 1.5 as many techlab factories to max out with tanks. In a 4 base vs 4 base scenario, that's like saving 350 gas and ~5 minutes before you max out. Tanks don't have DPS when they're dead. Having a lot of Thors means that the high DPS your tanks have will STILL BE THERE when the immortals shields are down, since your 4 tanks (should hopefully be still alive). Thors are really tanky, and it helps tremendously if the archons auto target the thors, while your hellbats that come in from the side get right in front of the immortals to maximize their splash. Later on in late-late game, THAT's when you add in Ghosts and Ravens. At 3-4 bases, You want to save as much money as you can from having fast production per supply (building Thors over tanks), and not having to invest in more starports and raven upgrades until you are 3/3. So while you are on 2 base going on 3, and adding your 4 techlab factories, you want to make 4 Tanks first (since they cost less gas/time than thors), and once ur 3rd's gas production kicks in, THEN you want to up your rate of armysize/time as well as getting a solid compositions that gives the most power and requires the least additional upgrades/tech buildings The one weakness the Thor has is that it doesn't do so hot if the protoss has a critical mass of collosus. However, if he's making collosus, he's not making Immortals, which are by far way stronger vs Mech until Protoss get's like 7 or so collosus, which won't happen when he's on 3 base unless he gets pure zealot collosus (which is a terrible composition). Either adding more banshees or vikings easily solves the collosus problem. Could you post a replay? I find your conclusion very interesting but I don't see it working on even numbers of Immortals vs Thors. If you look in the unit tester how a thor trades against an immortal you will find out that the thor always loses. The thor costs more money and takes more supply (6 instead of 4). The bigger the upgrade difference gets the worse the trade. For the banshee vs cloak discussion going on. I'm experimenting with both at the moment. I think both are good and both have their andvantages. In mid game you can't afford to go crazy on ghosts and bashees so you have to decide for one of them. I always get a couple of vikings when I go banshees to snipe observers. However lateley more than half of my tvp games start with the protoss oponent all-inning me. If I get all inned that usually means that I have to stay on 2 bases for a long time. On 2 bases I can afford 4 factories and 1 rax ghost production. This has become my standard follow up when I get all inned. I think on a crippled economy hellbat/tank with few ghosts do better than hellbat/tank with a few banshees. | ||
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HTOMario
United States439 Posts
http://tinyurl.com/qhausra | ||
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FiveOhFirst
2 Posts
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Taefox
1533 Posts
 If there are any missing replay pack or vods in OP these day, feel free to shoot me a pm. | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
Thanks | ||
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t0n!ght
57 Posts
On December 15 2013 11:42 Fhiz wrote: Hey everyone I was wondering I am thinking of starting to mech more in my TvT is the ForGGeddon guide still good to follow ? Or is there anywhere else (such as recent replays of pros or a new guide) someone could point me to? Thanks Yeah it is still viable. It's good against a banshee opener. It can be hard to play against a 1/1/1 marine tank viking push of one base but you can even hold against that. Just remember you don't have to open medivac every game. To go for the viking instead of the medivac can make a big diference. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On February 18 2013 10:26 DBS wrote: Has anyone else been having success w/ WM-tank in TvP? I position the widow mines right in front of the tanks. The widow mines stop charglots immortals and archons while the tanks blast whatever tries to shoot the widow mines. I add lots of vikings if they air transition. Is this a gimmick that the protosses just don't know how to deal with or have other players been having the same success? that shit works really nicely vs a toss going stargate after expand. Otherwise they'll have too many obs/collosus by the time you push with drilling claws. Also, you could also lose to hallucinated phoenixes | ||
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wptlzkwjd
Canada1240 Posts
On December 23 2013 17:35 t0n!ght wrote: Yeah it is still viable. It's good against a banshee opener. It can be hard to play against a 1/1/1 marine tank viking push of one base but you can even hold against that. Just remember you don't have to open medivac every game. To go for the viking instead of the medivac can make a big diference. It also helps if you have a bunker up to defend the 1/1/1. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On December 26 2013 16:52 halpimcat wrote: Has anyone been having success with HTOMario's mech tvp style? I'm curious why he doesn't make ghosts in the matchup - it seems general consensus is that ghosts are necessary, but Mario forgoes them unless he opens bio into mech. Not that general consensus is that important, mech is far from standard. I just want to know what the mindset is behind not making ghosts. Ghosts aren't standard, in fact I would argue that Banshee's are your goto unit vs Robo based compositions. Because they force out stalkers, which are just terrible against mech. And if they're making stalkers, well thats less supply available for robo. | ||
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GuiRao
Spain29 Posts
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Taefox
1533 Posts
On December 29 2013 02:03 GuiRao wrote: Hello, I'm having difficulties vs zerg against mass ultras (talking about 12 or so). Thors doesn't seem to be good unless you are maxed having all supply to Thor. Any suggestions? unsieged tanks with few Banshees | ||
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GuiRao
Spain29 Posts
Ah so the key is the tanks have to be not sieged, I'll try it thanks. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 29 2013 02:03 GuiRao wrote: Hello, I'm having difficulties vs zerg against mass ultras (talking about 12 or so). Thors doesn't seem to be good unless you are maxed having all supply to Thor. Any suggestions? Thors are good against ultras. A mix of Thors and unsieged Tanks with whatever you have in front (Hellbats, possibly landed Vikings if you have only that and if there are no Vipers; they will die very fast, but the idea is to protect your Tanks/Thors for as long as possible) should be enough if the numbers are there; avoid to fight in the open if you can of course, in a choke ultras are much weaker since they're a melee large unit. Use shift focus fire if there are many lings along. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
And a replay pack -> http://www.mediafire.com/download/rxwccuncdqpd94b/December 2013 replays.zip (nothing great, just my standard play) edit : saw my guide is in the tvp section atm. Well, the TvT guide is the first one, and in the end i'll put all 3 guides in the same thread anyway | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
I've been meching in tvp for about 2 weeks now, learning a lot. One thing I can't wrap my head around is actually winning engagements. In my head, a correctly positioned with a good composition should stomp most armies, but I almost always come out on the losing side. It's probably has to do with both composition and positioning, but I need a few pointers on how to engage protoss. This low level replay shows the last game I played in mech tvp. I had two major, max army engagements against protoss and was destroyed both times (the last one was pretty close). What went wrong and what should I do to ensure my armies actually win? I won in the end from simply starving him out. And I know the beginning was atrocious with all the supply blocks, I was trying a new build and just winging it as I went along. 2nd question: What's the idea response to phoenix? | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
Like I get go sky terran but Im already maxed and If I throw away to much on ground he will just over me D: Im getting really sick and tired of immo based armys just a moving over my tank lines as if they were not there  How do I win engagments vs Immo based and Tempest base comps? | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
On January 06 2014 10:17 Doc Brawler wrote: Hey GumBa, so tank hellbat is a really good composition, but it works a lot better with emps. A single pdd is 20 tempest shots, so you don't need a lot to absolutely shut down tempest. Remember tempest is 4 supply, raven 2 supply. I usually get a ghost academy with my 4th factory, its only 50 gas I think. My two base set up is 4 fac(2 TL 2R), 1 rax(Ghost), 1StarPort(R). Eventually you want to add TL Starports for banshees and a raven or two, but if you catch a wiff of ANY Stargate units add another starport and prioritize vikings over ghosts. Ok thx I will try mech again TvP is so frustrating | ||
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