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Hi. I'm currently low-mid platinum league. I feel like in TvZ and TvT, I always win if I play correctly, and if I lose it's usually easy to spot my mistake. In TvP however, it doesn't seem to matter how much damage I do or how far ahead I get, I lose the vast majority of my games.
drop.sc/294883
Here's a game where I opened with a hidden CC first, and by the end of the game, I managed to completely mine out the hidden base since he never scouted it. So I practically got a free 10k minerals/10k gas, and my opponent never really got past 3 bases, and I STILL lost out of pure cost inefficiency.
I don't know how to fight against storm. Obviously you're supposed to EMP them, but the templar ALWAYS get blanket storms off on my entire army even when I try to EMP. It just seems like it's not effective at actually hitting them. I could try to move out a rogue squad of ghosts, but my opponent usually has them protected beneath the deathball, and I don't want to rely on my opponent making a mistake by not doing so.
I know that you can retreat from a storm, but I usually take too much damage to be able to recover even if I do so, and they usually have enough templars that they can just continue storming me indefinitely and it's impossible for me to be remotely cost efficient.
Any tips on this one? Or general TvP tips if you watch my replay? Thanks.
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Mostly you shouldn't get hit by storm at all... this means you have to engage in areas where you have enough room to retreat and stutterstep to kite the collosi/ht to avoid taking to much damage (sometimes you stand and fight vs collosi but almost never against HT)
The only real weakness HT have is that they are much slower than the rest of the army. So either you have to start the engagement with EMP and hope to blanket the entire army, or kite the army and try to emp the ht as they move up.
Everyone has problems with this, and very few can do it regularly... it takes very good control.
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Ghost vs templars is a dance, a battle of micro. Since you are platinum there's of course a lot of things you could had done much better. But really the best solution I can give you to fighting against storm is get both upgrades for it, I don't play Terran so I don't know the name but the energy upgrade and the cloak upgrade for ghosts. If you can scan and snipe obs with vikings you can emp him freely, since he won't have vision against your cloaked ghosts. Then when they're out of energy it's your move to strike.
If he doesn't attack you and just stay on three bases you don't really need to attack him if you don't want. I would say just stay passive and let him come to you since your economy is much greater and you can re max, maybe drop him once he moves out on multiple spots. Also don't forget with that economy you can get so many production buildings that you can almost re max instantly.
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box the units under the storm and move them out. Practice dong it quickly.
User was warned for this post
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On January 15 2013 06:43 Gladiator333 wrote:
Ghost vs templars is a dance, a battle of micro. Since you are platinum there's of course a lot of things you could had done much better. But really the best solution I can give you to fighting against storm is get both upgrades for it, I don't play Terran so I don't know the name but the energy upgrade and the cloak upgrade for ghosts. If you can scan and snipe obs with vikings you can emp him freely, since he won't have vision against your cloaked ghosts. Then when they're out of energy it's your move to strike.
If he doesn't attack you and just stay on three bases you don't really need to attack him if you don't want. I would say just stay passive and let him come to you since your economy is much greater and you can re max, maybe drop him once he moves out on multiple spots. Also don't forget with that economy you can get so many production buildings that you can almost re max instantly.
Somehow I ran out of minerals at the end of the game, and he still had tons of money to play with. I completely mined out almost 4 bases.
I would love to play passive when I'm ahead in macro, but that's a huge no-no in TvP. Whenever I face a maxed toss army, it always decimates my maxed terran amy before I can even break through the frontal zealot wall. Doesn't matter how fast I can re-max =[
On January 15 2013 06:50 lorestarcraft wrote:
box the units under the storm and move them out. Practice dong it quickly.
Is there a trainer for this? And do you have an idea of how much this weakens the storms?
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scans + snipe
at your level, scans + emp the (presumably clumped) HT. im in diamond and all toss's clump HT, which is horrible to see.
taking clumps of bio to flank/hit HT/ eat storm is underrated, worst case if you take a little group and put in very vulnerable position, lower level players will storm it and waste the storm.
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On January 15 2013 07:15 nath wrote:
scans + snipe
at your level, scans + emp the (presumably clumped) HT. im in diamond and all toss's clump HT, which is horrible to see.
taking clumps of bio to flank/hit HT/ eat storm is underrated, worst case if you take a little group and put in very vulnerable position, lower level players will storm it and waste the storm.
I've tried this, like sending in 2 marines & 2 marauders to try and snipe a templar. It always just gets killed by the rest of the army instead of getting stormed lol.
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On January 15 2013 06:39 HungrySC2 wrote:
Mostly you shouldn't get hit by storm at all... this means you have to engage in areas where you have enough room to retreat and stutterstep to kite the collosi/ht to avoid taking to much damage (sometimes you stand and fight vs collosi but almost never against HT)
The only real weakness HT have is that they are much slower than the rest of the army. So either you have to start the engagement with EMP and hope to blanket the entire army, or kite the army and try to emp the ht as they move up.
Everyone has problems with this, and very few can do it regularly... it takes very good control.
I think this is the best piece of advice for you (Diamond Terran here). You should get a natural feel for how close a HT has to be to get off the storm and always stay at the edge of it while kiting the army backwards. If they make the mistake of bringing the HT too far forward thats when you send in the small groups to snipe or get off the killer EMP/Snipes. If this never happens and you stay outside the range the whole time all the toss is left with are those HTs with no support. Good luck!
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On January 15 2013 07:28 Prime Directive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 06:39 HungrySC2 wrote:
Mostly you shouldn't get hit by storm at all... this means you have to engage in areas where you have enough room to retreat and stutterstep to kite the collosi/ht to avoid taking to much damage (sometimes you stand and fight vs collosi but almost never against HT)
The only real weakness HT have is that they are much slower than the rest of the army. So either you have to start the engagement with EMP and hope to blanket the entire army, or kite the army and try to emp the ht as they move up.
Everyone has problems with this, and very few can do it regularly... it takes very good control. I think this is the best piece of advice for you (Diamond Terran here). You should get a natural feel for how close a HT has to be to get off the storm and always stay at the edge of it while kiting the army backwards. If they make the mistake of bringing the HT too far forward thats when you send in the small groups to snipe or get off the killer EMP/Snipes. If this never happens and you stay outside the range the whole time all the toss is left with are those HTs with no support. Good luck!
Ya I guess this sounds ideal. I was kind of hoping that there would be a way to counter storm that's as easy as casting storm!
But this leaves sort of a problem: How do I actually engage a protoss army with storms? If I'm not mistaken, as a terran I need to smash into their army as much as possible in the mid-game to keep them from building some silly unstoppable deathball. But how do I engage the army directly if I'm the one who has to retreat in engagements?
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Really it's a practise of splitting your units to storm dodge. Terran is the most micro intensive in this sense, so you will have to get good at this! But it'll be worth it, since it'll help you become a don at dodging banelings and projectile fungals too.
I'm fairly certain snipe outranges storm by 2 (don't quote me on this) so if you're a whiz with your clicker you can snipe HTs before they even get in range.
You should also ensure to have a good balance between viking and medivac production. Having too many vikings is deadweight, having too few and you won't kill the colossi - but getting the magic number allows you to have more medivacs, which can save your bio from stormy death. Keep being aware through scans of his army comp - see if he is still producing colossi and how many he has or not.
Some Terrans like to work in more and more marauders to their late game army comp so it becomes a ghost/marauder type thing. Marauders are amazing at tanking storm damage, especially with lots of medivac coverage. They're also pretty tanky against zealots so you can kite with them fairly easily.
In answer to your question above (how to engage) it's a matter of baiting. You want to make the Protoss think he is going to storm you. Then you dash out the way and his storms whiff. HTs are slower than the rest of the Protoss army so they lag behind - and as a result there's a few second delay between the Toss hitting T and the storm being cast, giving you time to dodge. Send small groups of stimmed marauders forward, try and snipe HTs, force out storms, attack in wide areas, split your units... sounds a lot but it will become second nature.
Believe me, as a Protoss, the other side of it - storming before we get EMPd/sniped - is just as annoying. But that's what makes SC2 such a skillful game!
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Ill bet its all true with the emp and ghost micro on higher levels. But in general, if u deny them there 5/6th gas geyser they wont have much. As long as u deny there 3rd and keep there supply low, u will allways have good exchanges with the exception that u don''t need gas for a big bio-army and can max out quicker (with better upgrades), thats what makes alot of difference. And seeing your game, u waited for 2 minutes at there doorstep, scanned, saw not many collosi and retreated. Then came back with a bigger army, 2 minutes later. Thats 4 minutes in total. He built 4 colossi by that time and u couldnt deny him his third.
Although this doesnt answer your question directly, i think if u would have engaged earlier (right after medi'vacs were there), u would have had a better position of denying him his 3rd and win the game by that.
Edit: U should watch day9 empire.kas episode. He also gets 3cc's like u do, he goes double upgrade and attacks early and denies them there 3rd. very-easy-tvp-by-empire-kas
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On January 15 2013 07:34 Bahku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:28 Prime Directive wrote:On January 15 2013 06:39 HungrySC2 wrote:
Mostly you shouldn't get hit by storm at all... this means you have to engage in areas where you have enough room to retreat and stutterstep to kite the collosi/ht to avoid taking to much damage (sometimes you stand and fight vs collosi but almost never against HT)
The only real weakness HT have is that they are much slower than the rest of the army. So either you have to start the engagement with EMP and hope to blanket the entire army, or kite the army and try to emp the ht as they move up.
Everyone has problems with this, and very few can do it regularly... it takes very good control. I think this is the best piece of advice for you (Diamond Terran here). You should get a natural feel for how close a HT has to be to get off the storm and always stay at the edge of it while kiting the army backwards. If they make the mistake of bringing the HT too far forward thats when you send in the small groups to snipe or get off the killer EMP/Snipes. If this never happens and you stay outside the range the whole time all the toss is left with are those HTs with no support. Good luck! Ya I guess this sounds ideal. I was kind of hoping that there would be a way to counter storm that's as easy as casting storm! But this leaves sort of a problem: How do I actually engage a protoss army with storms? If I'm not mistaken, as a terran I need to smash into their army as much as possible in the mid-game to keep them from building some silly unstoppable deathball. But how do I engage the army directly if I'm the one who has to retreat in engagements?
In the early/mid game (which ends after 2-3 collusus or a few minutes after the first storm hits the field) you can trade and should find ways to trade. Just try to retain as many units as possible. Most of the time the best way to win against protoss is to have enough of a supply lead that you can force a fight and deny the Protoss from securing a 3rd. A 2 base protoss isn't very scary. Concaves are more important than anything else in the early engagements.
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On January 15 2013 07:34 Bahku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:28 Prime Directive wrote:On January 15 2013 06:39 HungrySC2 wrote:
Mostly you shouldn't get hit by storm at all... this means you have to engage in areas where you have enough room to retreat and stutterstep to kite the collosi/ht to avoid taking to much damage (sometimes you stand and fight vs collosi but almost never against HT)
The only real weakness HT have is that they are much slower than the rest of the army. So either you have to start the engagement with EMP and hope to blanket the entire army, or kite the army and try to emp the ht as they move up.
Everyone has problems with this, and very few can do it regularly... it takes very good control. I think this is the best piece of advice for you (Diamond Terran here). You should get a natural feel for how close a HT has to be to get off the storm and always stay at the edge of it while kiting the army backwards. If they make the mistake of bringing the HT too far forward thats when you send in the small groups to snipe or get off the killer EMP/Snipes. If this never happens and you stay outside the range the whole time all the toss is left with are those HTs with no support. Good luck! Ya I guess this sounds ideal. I was kind of hoping that there would be a way to counter storm that's as easy as casting storm! But this leaves sort of a problem: How do I actually engage a protoss army with storms? If I'm not mistaken, as a terran I need to smash into their army as much as possible in the mid-game to keep them from building some silly unstoppable deathball. But how do I engage the army directly if I'm the one who has to retreat in engagements?
Thats more of a TvZ mindset really. If you are playing a macro game (ESP with 2x ebays) you don't need to keep trading units with Protoss. Try to delay his 3rd, drop his main/nat. Terran end game deathball is scary as hell for Protoss if you emp well. Just make sure to try to increase your ghost count as the game goes on. Ie your first 200/200 army will have primarily marine/marauder/Viking/medivac. Your next remax will cut some of those bio units for more ghosts as once you wipe out storm threat you can amove through anything P has assuming a decent Viking count.
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On January 15 2013 06:50 lorestarcraft wrote:
box the units under the storm and move them out. Practice dong it quickly.
Is there a trainer for this? And do you have an idea of how much this weakens the storms?
There are some good micro trainers out there. But i'm hesitant to say more because I might get warned again. Not sure how offering a tactic, methodology, and advice on performing is worth a warning. My message said that I might as well of told you to macro better. Some things are worth getting warnings for, but this is not. Whoever flagged my post must have been in a pretty ticky-tack mood.
You can go to the custom games or arcade and search for marine micro trainers and such. The way you split for banes can also help for storm too. Kiting back constantly is also and option.
Watch some Flash games too. He dodges storms better than anyone.
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On January 15 2013 08:15 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 06:50 lorestarcraft wrote:
box the units under the storm and move them out. Practice dong it quickly. Show nested quote +Is there a trainer for this? And do you have an idea of how much this weakens the storms? There are some good micro trainers out there. But i'm hesitant to say more because I might get warned again. Not sure how offering a tactic, methodology, and advice on performing is worth a warning. My message said that I might as well of told you to macro better. Some things are worth getting warnings for, but this is not. Whoever flagged my post must have been in a pretty ticky-tack mood. You can go to the custom games or arcade and search for marine micro trainers and such. The way you split for banes can also help for storm too. Kiting back constantly is also and option. Watch some Flash games too. He dodges storms better than anyone.
No offense to the community here, but it feels like the mods are way too quick to use their power. I see no reason to warn someone when they clearly have no intention of spamming or causing trouble.
Anyways, thanks for the other tips guys. I always felt like I'd have to rely more on denying a protoss their fourth, as a third seems too easy to secure. And I can't engage their army in a ramp with sentries, so I don't see much of a way to keep them from claiming a third.
I've tried engaging cost-inefficiently just to keep their colossus/sentry count down, but usually my army just gets forcefielded on the ramp and they all die without a single zealot casualty. Any tips on early engagements? Or should I maybe mass-expo in the early-mid game to force them to walk into my concave in front of their ramp?
Thanks guys, every post has seemed pretty constructive so far.
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Other than entombed, no maps have a skinny ramp at the third so be creative. On cloud kingdom for example, dont walk straight at the third, come from the high ground. Or better yet come from both sides. While FF is scary you are usually safe to pick up trapped units as stalkers are typically in position for drop defense. And at this point in the game the Protoss likely won't be able to kill your stim bio + medivac if he attempts to trap 100% of it in with FF.
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On January 15 2013 08:29 Bahku wrote:
Anyways, thanks for the other tips guys. I always felt like I'd have to rely more on denying a protoss their fourth, as a third seems too easy to secure. And I can't engage their army in a ramp with sentries, so I don't see much of a way to keep them from claiming a third.
I've tried engaging cost-inefficiently just to keep their colossus/sentry count down, but usually my army just gets forcefielded on the ramp and they all die without a single zealot casualty. Any tips on early engagements? Or should I maybe mass-expo in the early-mid game to force them to walk into my concave in front of their ramp?
Thanks guys, every post has seemed pretty constructive so far.
Yes, they have sentries at the ramp. But u could have dropped some troops in there main, and split there forces up, multiprong attacks. Then there sentries wouldnt be such a problem because he would have had less troops at the ramp. If u let him get 6 gas or more, ur basically toast without ghosts and descent micro. This because there deathball is better than an MMM-only deathball, presuming u dont micro ghosts that well. Denying there 3rd ( or killing another one) is key to having them make choices about where the gas needs to go so they can never reach the toss deathball.
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I feel like the most important thing against templar is engagement position, you can't let him run all the way to your base uncontested and fight him in a place where your units easily get pinned or are unable to kite/spread out (this means naturals, 3rd bases, chokes around the map), this means that attacking into a protoss player's base is also bad, because if you run up a ramp and get stormed you're as good as dead.
Instead, let him move out, and drop when he does, or at least ride out to meet him in the mid field, where you can set up a concave, kite his army, or even flank with a few ghosts and EMP the templar hiding in the back of the army.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 15 2013 07:43 Larkin wrote:
Really it's a practise of splitting your units to storm dodge. Terran is the most micro intensive in this sense, so you will have to get good at this! But it'll be worth it, since it'll help you become a don at dodging banelings and projectile fungals too.
I'm fairly certain snipe outranges storm by 2 (don't quote me on this) so if you're a whiz with your clicker you can snipe HTs before they even get in range.
You should also ensure to have a good balance between viking and medivac production. Having too many vikings is deadweight, having too few and you won't kill the colossi - but getting the magic number allows you to have more medivacs, which can save your bio from stormy death. Keep being aware through scans of his army comp - see if he is still producing colossi and how many he has or not.
Some Terrans like to work in more and more marauders to their late game army comp so it becomes a ghost/marauder type thing. Marauders are amazing at tanking storm damage, especially with lots of medivac coverage. They're also pretty tanky against zealots so you can kite with them fairly easily.
In answer to your question above (how to engage) it's a matter of baiting. You want to make the Protoss think he is going to storm you. Then you dash out the way and his storms whiff. HTs are slower than the rest of the Protoss army so they lag behind - and as a result there's a few second delay between the Toss hitting T and the storm being cast, giving you time to dodge. Send small groups of stimmed marauders forward, try and snipe HTs, force out storms, attack in wide areas, split your units... sounds a lot but it will become second nature.
Believe me, as a Protoss, the other side of it - storming before we get EMPd/sniped - is just as annoying. But that's what makes SC2 such a skillful game!
To be a little more exact, I'll just expand this post:
Snipe and EMP both outrange feedback, so you should potentially always be getting those off if the templars are AT THE FRONT OF THE ARMY. If your opponent is keeping the HT either behind his army or in his army, feel free to just pull vikings/ghosts back and simply kite his zealots. With good stutter step micro, you should generally always be just out of range of colossus and templar.
The "magic number" of vikings is 8, as 2 volleys will kill a single colossus. If your opponent is going heavy on colossus (5-6), it's okay to go up to 15 to 1-shot them.
Marauders are now becoming more widely used in lategame TvP simply because marauders just don't die very quickly with medivac support. You want a marine/marauder ratio of about 3:2. As long as the marauders are sitting in front of the marines and taking the initial bursts of damage from colossus/zealots, the marines should melt the zealots really fast and then the rest of the protoss army is pretty defenseless.
The best way to "bait" storms is to simply wait for templar to almost get in range, and then begin kiting. NEVER SPLIT YOUR UNITS UNTIL MOST OF THE ZEALOTS ARE DEAD. You should be stutter-stepping back from storms/colossus, then splitting to deal with the splash damage after the wall of zealots is gone.
Hope this helps!
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Just won two TvP's pretty convincingly. I've learned to split my army in half while attacking the third, with half the army camping behind his predicted attack rout for an instant concave. Both went storms, I still had heavy losses but I've been more capable of preventing them from getting a third while easily out-macroing them. I can easily replace units because I usually hit as their third is being built, while my third is already being muled up with a fourth on the way.
Thanks a lot for the advice everyone, I haven't been able to digest all of it but I've been using a lot of these tips. It seems my goal should be to eventually learn to snipe as it seems to be the most efficient way of dealing with templar, but until I get better awareness/mechanics I'll stick with positional play and (attempting) to dodge the storms.
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EPT
