On January 08 2013 02:46 TheUnSeenOne wrote: Now would Corruptor/ Roach/ Infestor counter this well?
Roach are kinda pointless. The best zerg armies against protoss are either mass hydra viper if toss air only has tempest/carrier. If the toss has archon storm carrier voidray with few colo then mass corruptor with good splitting(most important part) + fungal mainly targeted at HT + a couple BL to keep archons away from corruptor is most likely the best. I do think viper or two in any zerg army makes it just that much stronger though.
Of course, the point of this build is to harass and eventually make zerg attack into you instead of you attacking into zerg unless they just sit on 3/4 base and you can trade and remax no problems. Sadly, if both protoss and zerg start sitting behind defensive structures the whole game(which could very well happen) I foresee horrendous late game PvZ in HotS >.>
Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs. EDIT: why not just put the PvP build order out there, right? 10 pylon 11 gate, 1 cb to nexus queue to 14th probe, make assimilator, scout 14 pylon 15 cyber core 16 zealot 100% cyber core, wg with 5 chronos 100% zealot, stalker, rally to zealot... this is fastest wg timing so no need to chase a probe around worrying about proxy pylons, just send zealot to enemy base. 23 gateway 23 gateway probe, probe, assimilator proxy pylon, low ground when stalker reaches probe and zealot, attack up the ramp leading with zealot, have probe come up shortly after under mineral-walk, place 1 or 2 proxy pylons high group warp-in is 3 stalkers, if you don't spend gas your next warp-in can be 2 stalkers and a zealot.
Attack the mothership core so it can't photon overcharge, make proxy pylons far away from nexus as possible, etc.
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
Right... the guide was to explain one of the most safe ways to get to the endgame Skytoss army. I know of very few other safe ways to do skytoss without doing some of the steps included unless you're doing certain attack timings or are praying the zerg doesn't know what they're doing. edit: I'm not saying there are not other ways to get to this endgame army. I'm just saying this is the safest way I've found so far and hence why I posted the guide
That aside, I assume you didn't watch the replay of the 11 gate build I did because it has absolutely nothing to do with the WoL 11 gate. The fact is that there are 2 strong, just not popular, 11 gate PvP builds in WoL. The one I designed my HotS build after is 2 zealot 2 stalker opener. Has nothing to do with 3 gate pressure you mentioned. :l
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
And his build isn't skytoss... how exactly? Colossus is an anti-hydra weapon designed to allow you some breathing room vs hydralisks. Pure toss air just doesn't work vs hydras without storm, and storm takes ages to get to, so if you want that just after taking your third, you're gonna wait a while + if you only got money for 3-4 templars, he can just dodge storms and march on.
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
And his build isn't skytoss... how exactly? Colossus is an anti-hydra weapon designed to allow you some breathing room vs hydralisks. Pure toss air just doesn't work vs hydras without storm, and storm takes ages to get to, so if you want that just after taking your third, you're gonna wait a while + if you only got money for 3-4 templars, he can just dodge storms and march on.
It has colossus, and uses units differently... see the WoL skytoss thread. This is just a stargate opener with colossus transition and an example of a mostly fleet beacon tech lategame army. Made edit in my post too about the 11gate. I will watch your 11 gate replay, -Kyo-, thanks
I find mass carriers is kind of impossible to beat and if the game has gone on for a while and the protoss has banked up a lot of minerals and gas, and then just puts 20 SGs in the corner of the map and chrono's them out, it's literally gg, vikings cannot kite these fucking things.
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
And his build isn't skytoss... how exactly? Colossus is an anti-hydra weapon designed to allow you some breathing room vs hydralisks. Pure toss air just doesn't work vs hydras without storm, and storm takes ages to get to, so if you want that just after taking your third, you're gonna wait a while + if you only got money for 3-4 templars, he can just dodge storms and march on.
It has colossus, and uses units differently... see the WoL skytoss thread. This is just a stargate opener with colossus transition and an example of a mostly fleet beacon tech lategame army. Made edit in my post too about the 11gate. I will watch your 11 gate replay, -Kyo-, thanks
I kinda thought that was the definition of skytoss. Or is there some extremely specific toss style that uses exclusively air units that has already claimed copyright of that term? Purism aside, this is a pretty damn good guide on how to get safely to mass air in PVZ.
All this "is it skytoss to go for carrier tempest void ray?" discussion aside.
I find that this playstyle dies to Viper Roach Hydra pretty hard.
Colossi can't shoot or get abducted and killed within a second. Then all you have left is a couple of VRs Zealots and Cannons to fight a maxed Roach Hydra army.
I would recommend to get Templar tech asap if you scout early Hive.
Pretty frustrating to play Protoss right now. PvP is a complete mess. PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions. PvZ can be anything and I am pretty sure this way also dies easily to certain timings that involve Vipers.
I think I will play Zerg for now. Protoss just gets more stupid more one sided and PvP even more random
On January 08 2013 06:59 rEalGuapo wrote: All this "is it skytoss to go for carrier tempest void ray?" discussion aside.
I find that this playstyle dies to Viper Roach Hydra pretty hard.
Colossi can't shoot or get abducted and killed within a second. Then all you have left is a couple of VRs Zealots and Cannons to fight a maxed Roach Hydra army.
I would recommend to get Templar tech asap if you scout early Hive.
Pretty frustrating to play Protoss right now. PvP is a complete mess. PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions. PvZ can be anything and I am pretty sure this way also dies easily to certain timings that involve Vipers.
I think I will play Zerg for now. Protoss just gets more stupid more one sided and PvP even more random
While I 100% disagree on PvT being decent and sort of agree with PvP being a mess >.<.. I've never once had any problems with vipers unless you go just straight t3 air because you then trade so cost ineffective vs hydra. If you have enough support units zealots/sentry/VR/cannons running vipers+their army into cannons and army is like... exactly what they don't want to do...
Imo, the best options for zerg vs this sort of build is to build a moderate sized army and control the map denying vision and proxy pylons while establishing multiple fast bases as they know you won't be moving out. From there it's a matter of defending properly and getting the right combination of units while protoss is doing the same.
On January 08 2013 06:59 rEalGuapo wrote: All this "is it skytoss to go for carrier tempest void ray?" discussion aside.
I find that this playstyle dies to Viper Roach Hydra pretty hard.
Colossi can't shoot or get abducted and killed within a second. Then all you have left is a couple of VRs Zealots and Cannons to fight a maxed Roach Hydra army.
I would recommend to get Templar tech asap if you scout early Hive.
Pretty frustrating to play Protoss right now. PvP is a complete mess. PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions. PvZ can be anything and I am pretty sure this way also dies easily to certain timings that involve Vipers.
I think I will play Zerg for now. Protoss just gets more stupid more one sided and PvP even more random
all this is solved by storm
As for your matchup woes, I tend to disagree with you
PvP is pretty straightforward actually. Survive to midgame -> go void ray / chargelot / archon -> win, if he goes mass air get phoenixes
PvT is a bit of a mess, but is very similar to WoL PvT with colossus / archons / storm
PvZ isn't very figured out yet but airtoss is definitely one of the better options available.
On January 08 2013 06:59 rEalGuapo wrote: PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions.
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Terran has barely any new composition. While toss got an enormous amount of new compositions, not to manage in WoL terran was stronger early game, while toss was stronger late game. Now late game terran didnt become significantly stronger (sure medivac upgrade is nice, but toss also got plenty of new stuff late game). Meanwhile toss early game got enormously boosted with a ton of new openings and pretty much immune to most early agression.
All of the zerg you played against were floating massive amounts of resources and building the wrong army composition. Against terrible zergs, it is possible to win with any builds. I could even design a mass sentry build that wins.
On January 08 2013 19:39 Loccstana wrote: All of the zerg you played against were floating massive amounts of resources and building the wrong army composition. Against terrible zergs, it is possible to win with any builds. I could even design a mass sentry build that wins.
This style is also used by whitera a lot and I have seen choya do it. It's defenitely a decent way to play out the matchup.
Had Waxangel help me out and move this thread. I figured I'd get it back on the strategy forums since the current map pool is what these builds were originally made for.
With that said, I remained top 16 GM in the beta for quite a while using these builds. The meta has evolved slightly on how to deal with them, versus what some of the pictures show the zergs doing for example, but more or less, it's the same deal.
Now and days you just want your end game comp to be mainly carriers//VR while getting ~5-6 tempests, HT and a couple colo. The build will more or less work out the same, but depending on if you scout hive or not you may need to go HT BEFORE transitioning to carriers/tempest. Most people now and days do this getting hydra/roach viper and hitting a timing. With cannons colo, vr and storm you can defend this perfectly fine however. Just make sure you're adding a lot of cannons in front of your 4th.
I am still a strong believer in air toss on maps like daybreak and akilon wastes. If you want to play a slow game and follow the proper transition routes posted here it's rather hard to lose, I think. Of course, I think on maps like daybreak this is almost something you have to do since SH on this map are incredibly strong once seiged in the middle.
In any case, I hope the guide helps people who are still looking for a way to play Skytoss.
I'll definitely be writing another guide when the Legacy of the Void beta comes out. I also have a few ideas on harassment builds based on the current information released, so hopefully the contributions will be helpful to you guys~
oh and edit: here are some really old videos of mainly skytoss army/transitions I do not think ended up in this thread somehow.
Man those HDStarcraft videos feel so nostalgic. He missed stuff on the map and was critisized for lack of game knowledge. But he still was a Masters-Player... and was the guy who got me into SC2 so ;-(
Just wondering, are you going straight fleet beacon for tempest/void ray/mothership vs swarm hosts while skipping colossi? When i was doing sos style builds i felt like going colossi was too slow to be an option, but i never figured out wether staying on (mostly) pure skytoss was actually a good idea.
On November 14 2014 08:59 Teoita wrote: Just wondering, are you going straight fleet beacon for tempest/void ray/mothership vs swarm hosts while skipping colossi? When i was doing sos style builds i felt like going colossi was too slow to be an option, but i never figured out wether staying on (mostly) pure skytoss was actually a good idea.
It really depends on how the zerg reacts. If they're kind enough to just expo and turn it into a game where you both get full saturation before doing anything at all it is, in fact, sometimes safe to just go straight air. However, as the thread describes, you more than likely need to transition multiple times before getting fleet beacon.
Generally it will go something like this: Fast expo -> 4 phx -> 4-6 VR -> ~3colo -> templar tech -> beacon tech.
Now, the point of being able to get to beacon tech is to do so quickly, but defensively. So, while it is sometimes the case that you see other pro players get this sort of composition, you're pretty much rushing out 2nd and 3rd base, then defending a 4th position while getting air all the while. Doing it this way allows you to have a very cost effective army ~20 minutes instead of the ~30-40 minute mark when you would usually see late game sky armies from toss!
Of course, I will disclaimer: Usually playing either variant of skytoss leads to some long games. You usually grab the win though, so it's give and take on what you find enjoyable/want to do~
EPT
Purism aside, this is a pretty damn good guide on how to get safely to mass air in PVZ.
