Hello and welcome to my guide on how to effectively play Skytoss in HotS! I’ve been attempting many variants of this over the past week and so far this is what I’ve come across to be the most safe, well transitioned build. I figure because I’ve been doing quite well with it on HotS ladder I’d share it with everyone, and hopefully you can see the strengths Protoss have at the moment in HotS. I also do have a unique PvP build I’ve been working on as many on HotS who know me may have seen; however, I feel that build is not solid enough to warrant a guide just yet, though I may if enough people have an interest. I included a single replay on the build in the replay pack attached at the end.
Introduction
So without further delay lets go ahead and start with the basic “goals” of the build. This build is not exclusively Skytoss. That is to say, your road to getting the ultimate Protoss air army does not include only making air units the whole game. To be safe against good Zerg timings you’ll need a few transitions before entering the realm of air in a safe manner. Similarly, massing exclusively air does have its down sides and because of this we’ll be focusing on a combination of units and upgrades that allow us to have an incredibly strong army while abusing the mobility Protoss has in other ways such as Speed Zealots and Warp Prisms to buy us time for this army. To make this a little more clear I will outline the “Phases” of a standard PvZ game with this build and what you will be looking to accomplish, this will also serve as an index if you’d like to search for a particular phase that is giving you trouble.
Phase 1: Standard 15 Nexus Build into 4 Pheonix opener
Phase 2: Transitioning into Void Ray + Zealot
Phase 3: Adding the transition into Colossus
Phase 4: Adding the transition into speed zealots + Fleet Beacon + 3 additional Stargates + 4th Base
Phase 5: Starting Tempest/Carrier production + Warp Prisms (a lot of them!)
Phase 6: Harassment, army positioning, High Templar, MORE CANNONS!
Phase 7: ?? win
The Opening Build Order
I’d like to note here that after a certain point in the game you should be adding your tech structures, upgrades, production and so forth when certain flags are set. For example: You are harassing with your phoenix and scout a hydralisk den. You know you don’t need many more void rays by this point. Therefore; work on your ground army. Because of this reactiveness in the build certain late game food references will not work very well. I will simply be giving you an idea of when you should be adding things and go more in depth with pictures in the Phase part of the text.
Depending on the map your pylon placement does matter. Close position 2 player maps I’d encourage an in base first pylon in case of 6 pool. I personally scout 9 usually to check if they make 3 sets of lings and also assure myself a scout on their 3rd base. You need to check this between 4-5min.
cannon or gate first depending on how large the map is. Cannon first = more safe vs 4 ling run by
17 gateway
18 double gas
25 Core – stalker+warpgate on completion
28 Pylon * THIS PLACEMENT PYLON IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT: Hide this pylon in a location a double overlord scout will not see!
36 Stargate
38 double gas
40 Double Pylon on base perimeter to see overlords + 2x sentry
48 Start adding your Pheonix up until 4. With first phoenix start +1ground upgrade - + Show Spoiler +
(It should be about 7:20 in game by now and because you’ve done nothing you should be seeing a double overlord scout by now. Because of your vision and stargate placement you’ll be able to kill 2 free overlords while the zerg scouts absolutely nothing.)
~50 * Following first phoenix you want to add 3 gates IN VISION of the zerg scouting overlords
From here everything will be “goal oriented” so you don’t stick to Food for the whole game. This helps you understand what you’re doing a lot more, and doesn’t make you freak out when you’re off by a few food later.
- Once you can start warping in units you want to add all zealots, and at max, 3 extra sentry. At this time your 4 pheonix should just about be finished so add your mothership core when you have the gas. It will be important for defending on maps such as daybreak.
- Once your 4 pheonix have finished being made you want to fly out of watch tower vision range as well as normal placement for zerg overlords straight to their queens. Your goal with these is not serious damage, just 2 queen kills to buy yourself time. Try to keep them alive as best you can as you want to be scouting hive tech timing and you can even leave one at the Z 5th later so you know when to harass. Also, as you move out with phoenix IMMEDITELY start void ray production and a robotics. You’ll be aiming to get about 4-6 voidrays depending on when you scout their hydras.
- By the time your first void ray has finished you should have finished killing the rocks for your 3rd on a map such as Akilon Wastes. Expand right after these are killed and destroy the collapsible rocks. If you’re playing on a map such as daybreak after your first warp in of zealots send one to take control over tower and take your army to your 3rd and wall around your nexus. Again, you only want zealots at this point. Your next warp in will be half at 3rd and half at natural choke to stop ling runbys. Once that is secure simply work on establishing your 3rd defenses by adding 3 gates and cannons. Get the gas running immediately once your 3rd is up.
- If you see hydralisks by this time you need to constantly warp rounds of zealots. Otherwise, you don’t need many – This will lead to floating a bit of minerals; however, it’s completely okay. You should be fine with the Nexus cannon and voidray production.
- Once your robotics finishes add 2 observers to queue to be spotters on the zerg army movement as well as a Robotics Bay. You’ll have a little extra gas due to the fact you’re only making VR and Zealots, but that’s okay! You’ll use it soon.
- Colossus range + Colossus once they’ve finished being constructed. Your goal is 4 Colossus. You should roughly have 3 Void Ray by this time. I recommend going to 6 void ray unless they went straight corruptor; in such a scenario continue VR production into the next steps. At about 4 VR Start mass zealot production from your 6 gate You’ll need zealots for securing your 4th so just dump your minerals now. Start +2 ground weapon and +1 air weapon – From this point on you will be doing ground weapons and air weapons until +3 At which time you’ll get GROUND SHIELDS and Air armor.
- Once you have your voidray production finished(~6) you’ll add a twilight council as well as a fleet beacon. And this is when the very important transitions start. You need to cannon essentially the whole front entrance to your 4th, start speed lot upgrade, and add 3 stargates all while securing your 4th. This is a lot all at once, but it times out very well for the Z timing attacks. If you have the gas add your warp prism speed now. We’ll be using them very soon. You should be at roughly 150 supply by now with your colossus, void ray, zealot army. Once you start the cannons at 4th base you no longer need more zealots unless an attack is incoming.
- If the zerg is going for a hydra/roach exclusive timing you need only VR zealots and colossus, I advise 2 tempests at most in this case as they’ll be transitioning into full corruptor soon. If they’re going for infestor hydra roach when your fleet beacon is finish add ~5 tempests as they do great work vs weak units with zealots in the front.
- As you’re securing your 4th you should be at about 3 colossus, I recommend a 4th if they have a ground army but if you’re in no danger you can stop making them and go straight into warp prisms from here. You want at least 1 active warp prism on the map, though I strongly advise 2; and practically non-stop production of them from here on out. Similarly, proxy pylons are great. This is very micro intensive because you’re teching so hard, harassing, and macroing – but you NEED to do damage(stop a zerg from getting a 5th) to buy time for the next step
- Start harassing with speed zealots/warp prism and go into your carrier production now. If they’re constantly trying to trade with you units are a priority. If you’re left alone however you can add Templar archives at this point because you are not in danger and you’re the one about to get aggressive!
- As you’re nearing max(180/200) you want to just start running the zealots you produced earlier straight to the zergs 5th base while warp prism harassing their main. Always keep ~20 food free for harassment. Add gates with your extra minerals as there is huge time between each carrier production cycle. Keep making zealots and harassing huehuehue. Likewise, use your army to clear creep when you see them come back to their main giving them less and less map presence.
- While doing this you’re going to want to expand your ultra super awesome cannon wall to your 5th base and prepare to take that. While clearing your useless supply up add Templar back at your cannon wall to start accumulating energy.
- Your goal is to have 3-4 colossus ~5 VR ~6 templar 2-3tempests(usually no need they sux)and the rest carriers. If you see mass mass corruptor only get get more VR and archons as well. They’re pretty good.
- From this point it’s just choking the zerg out. Essentially, a reversed play of ZvP in WoL. The more bases you get after your 4th slowly add more stargates in case you trade in a big fight. Just remax on the same stuff above while continuing your harassment.
I won't go too much into detail as you can just see in the replays for yourself. However, you should be using all chrono boost on probes after your expo finishes until stargate is done. At which point all is then spent on pheonix.
From there you will only spend chronoboost on Void Ray -> Colossus Production -> Upgrades -> Warp Prisms -> Carriers/final air stuff
Phase 1
super badass pictures to go along with the build order and goal orientation above - click them twice to get full screen images! :D
Hopefully this serves as a general guideline for how to safely tech to Sky Toss in HotS. If anyone finds the guide to be too cluttered in some spots or wants to modify anything feel free to send me a PM or something. I may update this with more replays at a later date depending how much I'm able to play since I start school on Monday.
Here are some replays of how the build can pan out in different situations, and hopefully can be used as a good demonstration regardless of your league: http://www.mediafire.com/?gsg3cj75b9m9kmp
I also included one replay of the PvP 11gate build I am working on.
If you'd like to watch me doing these builds, VoDs or anything else you can find my stream page & twitter here:
Now we just need apvp and apvt from you, btw love this skytoss build and I also love the asmodious sky toss transitioning to void tempest templar archon with the infamous zelot of course
Pretty cool guide. I'd take a look at Stardust's build from Hybrid Proleague on Ohana, though. + Show Spoiler +
Basically 2 Star > 6 Voids (try to kill third, but be wary of counter) > 6 Carriers > stop Carrier production > goes up to 3 base/4 Stargate mass Voidray. Lots of Cannons. Around 2 Sentries for Guardian Shields. Also you have 2 Warpgates for warping in Zealot/Sentry to block or help defend with excess minerals Then you head to Templar Tech, and add a few Gates with excess minerals.
With good control, CANNONS, and the Mothership Core you can stop Hydra timings. If you've defend sufficiently by that point, your army is too scary to attack into, and you can pursue more bases/Templar tech/Robo for Observers.
This build was pretty sweet on WoL, but it had some obvious holes. Mothership Core Overcharge and Void buffs really help with them. This build just got 10x sweeter in HotS. Not to mention the defensive potential with mobility from Recall. Plus you have the option of Tempests to deal with any kind of Mass Spore/Spine buildups, but I typically never build them with this build.
Nice guide, looks solid. But what are your actions against muta? In a case of non-muta play you just go with the whole army to defend your 3rd nexus. But with muta it can be something like harrasing your main and pressuring 3rd with lings.
On January 07 2013 19:48 DON-ILYA wrote: Nice guide, looks solid. But what are your actions against muta? In a case of non-muta play you just go with the whole army to defend your 3rd nexus. But with muta it can be something like harrasing your main and pressuring 3rd with lings.
I'd imagine he uses the sentries to cap the third while defending mutas with stalkers, but I'm more interested to hear about his general response to mutas.
Kyo, do you rely on phoenixes, get storm out faster (maybe skipping colossus), or include more stalkers in your army?
On January 07 2013 19:48 DON-ILYA wrote: Nice guide, looks solid. But what are your actions against muta? In a case of non-muta play you just go with the whole army to defend your 3rd nexus. But with muta it can be something like harrasing your main and pressuring 3rd with lings.
I'd imagine he uses the sentries to cap the third while defending mutas with stalkers, but I'm more interested to hear about his general response to mutas.
Kyo, do you rely on phoenixes, get storm out faster (maybe skipping colossus), or include more stalkers in your army?
Played this style for a couple of days now (I think I saw a cast of whitera and tried to copy)
You already got 4 Phoenix by the time you get the first hints of Mutas, just add a fast second stargate, go double Phoenix and try to get Range. Also, I prefer 5 over 4, you can lose one and still kill off queens easily and you kill overlords faster. Also ground upgrades are pretty important, Zerg will probably rely on Lings as ground units and dump his gas inot the mutas, you want your zealots to two-shot them always.
Hmm... Played some games. Didn't face some straight muta plays at 9-11 minute mark, but it looks like mass blink stalkers into colossus might help. If zerg goes tech switch, phoenixes are completely useless. And it's always such a feeling (for me), that I need to end the game as fast as possible, coz muta can be very frustrating and a single mistake will cost you a game. Also it's harder to harass with prism against muta player.
On January 07 2013 21:01 DON-ILYA wrote: Hmm... Played some games. Didn't face some straight muta plays at 9-11 minute mark, but it looks like mass blink stalkers into colossus might help. If zerg goes tech switch, phoenixes are completely useless. And it's always such a feeling (for me), that I need to end the game as fast as possible, coz muta can be very frustrating and a single mistake will cost you a game. Also it's harder to harass with prism against muta player.
With the new Mutas I see no other way than Phoenix. If you go for Cannon+Stalker Zerg will not lose Mutas and the ball will grow and grow, then you lose to a basetrade.
Double Phoenix requires you to have a few Observers to scout out any tech switches, obviously you still get a lot of Gateway units and can transition into colossi slowly. If you see him throwing down any sort of additional tech more often than not you can just kill him with the phoenix+gateway army.
I wonder why you open with phoenix instead of oracles. With phoenix you need to wait for 3-4 before you can do some pressure, with oracles your first one can already kill drones really well. I like just opening with 1 or 2 oracles and then going some voids unless I see spire in which case I go phoenix. With the phoenix range upgrade and the MsC doing phoenix in reaction to spire is enough imo. Oracle + some voids is much more useful for setting up your third because an oracle is actually pretty good against ling pressure. Oracle + voids is also much easier to micro in those battles as you only need to flick em on, phoenixes kind of suck agianst roach/ling pressure because they take so much care.
On January 08 2013 00:46 Markwerf wrote: I wonder why you open with phoenix instead of oracles. With phoenix you need to wait for 3-4 before you can do some pressure, with oracles your first one can already kill drones really well. I like just opening with 1 or 2 oracles and then going some voids unless I see spire in which case I go phoenix. With the phoenix range upgrade and the MsC doing phoenix in reaction to spire is enough imo. Oracle + some voids is much more useful for setting up your third because an oracle is actually pretty good against ling pressure. Oracle + voids is also much easier to micro in those battles as you only need to flick em on, phoenixes kind of suck agianst roach/ling pressure because they take so much care.
Phoenix kill air and ground unlike oracles. In that same regard, if you go oracles and you scout a spire you then have to build additional units that with this build you otherwise already have. To be honest, I hate the oracle. It's just way too fragile in the early game and if the zerg has a grasp on the situation at hand they can largely negate the damage an oracle can inflict after they are revealed - that is to say, even if you're saving your oracles over time you're not doing the damage that you're almost assured with the phoenix (queen+overlords->time factor->macro). Phoenix can be incredibly useful up until late game at which point I showed they can be used for scouting/vision check to hit timings before the zerg gets a good composition/upgrades. Late game I'd advise 2 oracles with your large air army for time warp. Until then however, I don't see the point to get a unit that is less viable than the phoenix and the VR combo which can also deny incredibly fast 4th expos if they skip on army. I guess some timings may come up in the future with oracle/gateway armies, but that's not the point of this guide :D
On January 08 2013 00:46 Markwerf wrote: I wonder why you open with phoenix instead of oracles. With phoenix you need to wait for 3-4 before you can do some pressure, with oracles your first one can already kill drones really well. I like just opening with 1 or 2 oracles and then going some voids unless I see spire in which case I go phoenix. With the phoenix range upgrade and the MsC doing phoenix in reaction to spire is enough imo. Oracle + some voids is much more useful for setting up your third because an oracle is actually pretty good against ling pressure. Oracle + voids is also much easier to micro in those battles as you only need to flick em on, phoenixes kind of suck agianst roach/ling pressure because they take so much care.
Phoenix kill air and ground unlike oracles. In that same regard, if you go oracles and you scout a spire you then have to build additional units that with this build you otherwise already have. To be honest, I hate the oracle. It's just way too fragile in the early game and if the zerg has a grasp on the situation at hand they can largely negate the damage an oracle can inflict after they are revealed - that is to say, even if you're saving your oracles over time you're not doing the damage that you're almost assured with the phoenix (queen+overlords->time factor->macro). Phoenix can be incredibly useful up until late game at which point I showed they can be used for scouting/vision check to hit timings before the zerg gets a good composition/upgrades. Late game I'd advise 2 oracles with your large air army for time warp. Until then however, I don't see the point to get a unit that is less viable than the phoenix and the VR combo which can also deny incredibly fast 4th expos if they skip on army. I guess some timings may come up in the future with oracle/gateway armies, but that's not the point of this guide :D
Considering TW doesn't hit air, is that even worth it (considering a large amount of his supply will likely be corruptors)?
On January 08 2013 00:46 Markwerf wrote: I wonder why you open with phoenix instead of oracles. With phoenix you need to wait for 3-4 before you can do some pressure, with oracles your first one can already kill drones really well. I like just opening with 1 or 2 oracles and then going some voids unless I see spire in which case I go phoenix. With the phoenix range upgrade and the MsC doing phoenix in reaction to spire is enough imo. Oracle + some voids is much more useful for setting up your third because an oracle is actually pretty good against ling pressure. Oracle + voids is also much easier to micro in those battles as you only need to flick em on, phoenixes kind of suck agianst roach/ling pressure because they take so much care.
Phoenix kill air and ground unlike oracles. In that same regard, if you go oracles and you scout a spire you then have to build additional units that with this build you otherwise already have. To be honest, I hate the oracle. It's just way too fragile in the early game and if the zerg has a grasp on the situation at hand they can largely negate the damage an oracle can inflict after they are revealed - that is to say, even if you're saving your oracles over time you're not doing the damage that you're almost assured with the phoenix (queen+overlords->time factor->macro). Phoenix can be incredibly useful up until late game at which point I showed they can be used for scouting/vision check to hit timings before the zerg gets a good composition/upgrades. Late game I'd advise 2 oracles with your large air army for time warp. Until then however, I don't see the point to get a unit that is less viable than the phoenix and the VR combo which can also deny incredibly fast 4th expos if they skip on army. I guess some timings may come up in the future with oracle/gateway armies, but that's not the point of this guide :D
Oracle + voidray combo can kill a queen just as easily as 4 phoenixes imo and an oracle can do lots of damage against a mineral line that isn't properly protected. I feel an oracle is slightly worse in pressure than a couple phoenix but the fact it builds so much faster makes it better as a first unit to go for imo. An oracle and voidray take 110 seconds to make, 4 phoenix take 140 seconds, for pressuring i vastly prefer the first two. That voidray can do the overlord hunting or join in with your oracle. In either case I don't expect to do much damage with the stargate units but scout a little, force some spores and kill some overlords. The oracle just makes it much easier to get a third as it's actually quite good at stopping lings from killing it whereas phoenixes do practically nothing there. Oracles are also just better against hydra pressure, with phoenixes you need a critical mass to lift and kill while oracles on themselves are fairly cost efficient against hydra's.
All in all I think phoenixes are only better for hunting overlords and killing/preventing muta's. The first can be done with voids too, the latter is of minimal use as you are in good shape with stargate against muta anyway as long as you don't get surprised.
On January 08 2013 02:46 TheUnSeenOne wrote: Now would Corruptor/ Roach/ Infestor counter this well?
Roach are kinda pointless. The best zerg armies against protoss are either mass hydra viper if toss air only has tempest/carrier. If the toss has archon storm carrier voidray with few colo then mass corruptor with good splitting(most important part) + fungal mainly targeted at HT + a couple BL to keep archons away from corruptor is most likely the best. I do think viper or two in any zerg army makes it just that much stronger though.
Of course, the point of this build is to harass and eventually make zerg attack into you instead of you attacking into zerg unless they just sit on 3/4 base and you can trade and remax no problems. Sadly, if both protoss and zerg start sitting behind defensive structures the whole game(which could very well happen) I foresee horrendous late game PvZ in HotS >.>
Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs. EDIT: why not just put the PvP build order out there, right? 10 pylon 11 gate, 1 cb to nexus queue to 14th probe, make assimilator, scout 14 pylon 15 cyber core 16 zealot 100% cyber core, wg with 5 chronos 100% zealot, stalker, rally to zealot... this is fastest wg timing so no need to chase a probe around worrying about proxy pylons, just send zealot to enemy base. 23 gateway 23 gateway probe, probe, assimilator proxy pylon, low ground when stalker reaches probe and zealot, attack up the ramp leading with zealot, have probe come up shortly after under mineral-walk, place 1 or 2 proxy pylons high group warp-in is 3 stalkers, if you don't spend gas your next warp-in can be 2 stalkers and a zealot.
Attack the mothership core so it can't photon overcharge, make proxy pylons far away from nexus as possible, etc.
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
Right... the guide was to explain one of the most safe ways to get to the endgame Skytoss army. I know of very few other safe ways to do skytoss without doing some of the steps included unless you're doing certain attack timings or are praying the zerg doesn't know what they're doing. edit: I'm not saying there are not other ways to get to this endgame army. I'm just saying this is the safest way I've found so far and hence why I posted the guide
That aside, I assume you didn't watch the replay of the 11 gate build I did because it has absolutely nothing to do with the WoL 11 gate. The fact is that there are 2 strong, just not popular, 11 gate PvP builds in WoL. The one I designed my HotS build after is 2 zealot 2 stalker opener. Has nothing to do with 3 gate pressure you mentioned. :l
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
And his build isn't skytoss... how exactly? Colossus is an anti-hydra weapon designed to allow you some breathing room vs hydralisks. Pure toss air just doesn't work vs hydras without storm, and storm takes ages to get to, so if you want that just after taking your third, you're gonna wait a while + if you only got money for 3-4 templars, he can just dodge storms and march on.
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
And his build isn't skytoss... how exactly? Colossus is an anti-hydra weapon designed to allow you some breathing room vs hydralisks. Pure toss air just doesn't work vs hydras without storm, and storm takes ages to get to, so if you want that just after taking your third, you're gonna wait a while + if you only got money for 3-4 templars, he can just dodge storms and march on.
It has colossus, and uses units differently... see the WoL skytoss thread. This is just a stargate opener with colossus transition and an example of a mostly fleet beacon tech lategame army. Made edit in my post too about the 11gate. I will watch your 11 gate replay, -Kyo-, thanks
I find mass carriers is kind of impossible to beat and if the game has gone on for a while and the protoss has banked up a lot of minerals and gas, and then just puts 20 SGs in the corner of the map and chrono's them out, it's literally gg, vikings cannot kite these fucking things.
On January 08 2013 02:54 tehemperorer wrote: Have a few problems with the guide, title is Skytoss but it clearly isn't, in fact you say it's not completely Skytoss. This is just a stargate opener to Colossus with the end-game army being fleet beacon tech. There are other ways to do Skytoss that don't involve colossus or phoenix too.
Also, don't work on any 11 gate in PvP, people do it all the time. It's the same as FXOz's 3 gate pressure except you play it like a 4 gate and put 2 proxy pylons on high ground. I do it all the time and win, against Masters and GMs.
And his build isn't skytoss... how exactly? Colossus is an anti-hydra weapon designed to allow you some breathing room vs hydralisks. Pure toss air just doesn't work vs hydras without storm, and storm takes ages to get to, so if you want that just after taking your third, you're gonna wait a while + if you only got money for 3-4 templars, he can just dodge storms and march on.
It has colossus, and uses units differently... see the WoL skytoss thread. This is just a stargate opener with colossus transition and an example of a mostly fleet beacon tech lategame army. Made edit in my post too about the 11gate. I will watch your 11 gate replay, -Kyo-, thanks
I kinda thought that was the definition of skytoss. Or is there some extremely specific toss style that uses exclusively air units that has already claimed copyright of that term? Purism aside, this is a pretty damn good guide on how to get safely to mass air in PVZ.
All this "is it skytoss to go for carrier tempest void ray?" discussion aside.
I find that this playstyle dies to Viper Roach Hydra pretty hard.
Colossi can't shoot or get abducted and killed within a second. Then all you have left is a couple of VRs Zealots and Cannons to fight a maxed Roach Hydra army.
I would recommend to get Templar tech asap if you scout early Hive.
Pretty frustrating to play Protoss right now. PvP is a complete mess. PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions. PvZ can be anything and I am pretty sure this way also dies easily to certain timings that involve Vipers.
I think I will play Zerg for now. Protoss just gets more stupid more one sided and PvP even more random
On January 08 2013 06:59 rEalGuapo wrote: All this "is it skytoss to go for carrier tempest void ray?" discussion aside.
I find that this playstyle dies to Viper Roach Hydra pretty hard.
Colossi can't shoot or get abducted and killed within a second. Then all you have left is a couple of VRs Zealots and Cannons to fight a maxed Roach Hydra army.
I would recommend to get Templar tech asap if you scout early Hive.
Pretty frustrating to play Protoss right now. PvP is a complete mess. PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions. PvZ can be anything and I am pretty sure this way also dies easily to certain timings that involve Vipers.
I think I will play Zerg for now. Protoss just gets more stupid more one sided and PvP even more random
While I 100% disagree on PvT being decent and sort of agree with PvP being a mess >.<.. I've never once had any problems with vipers unless you go just straight t3 air because you then trade so cost ineffective vs hydra. If you have enough support units zealots/sentry/VR/cannons running vipers+their army into cannons and army is like... exactly what they don't want to do...
Imo, the best options for zerg vs this sort of build is to build a moderate sized army and control the map denying vision and proxy pylons while establishing multiple fast bases as they know you won't be moving out. From there it's a matter of defending properly and getting the right combination of units while protoss is doing the same.
On January 08 2013 06:59 rEalGuapo wrote: All this "is it skytoss to go for carrier tempest void ray?" discussion aside.
I find that this playstyle dies to Viper Roach Hydra pretty hard.
Colossi can't shoot or get abducted and killed within a second. Then all you have left is a couple of VRs Zealots and Cannons to fight a maxed Roach Hydra army.
I would recommend to get Templar tech asap if you scout early Hive.
Pretty frustrating to play Protoss right now. PvP is a complete mess. PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions. PvZ can be anything and I am pretty sure this way also dies easily to certain timings that involve Vipers.
I think I will play Zerg for now. Protoss just gets more stupid more one sided and PvP even more random
all this is solved by storm
As for your matchup woes, I tend to disagree with you
PvP is pretty straightforward actually. Survive to midgame -> go void ray / chargelot / archon -> win, if he goes mass air get phoenixes
PvT is a bit of a mess, but is very similar to WoL PvT with colossus / archons / storm
PvZ isn't very figured out yet but airtoss is definitely one of the better options available.
On January 08 2013 06:59 rEalGuapo wrote: PvT is pretty decent but Terran can go for a million new compositions.
Notsureifserious.jpg
Terran has barely any new composition. While toss got an enormous amount of new compositions, not to manage in WoL terran was stronger early game, while toss was stronger late game. Now late game terran didnt become significantly stronger (sure medivac upgrade is nice, but toss also got plenty of new stuff late game). Meanwhile toss early game got enormously boosted with a ton of new openings and pretty much immune to most early agression.
All of the zerg you played against were floating massive amounts of resources and building the wrong army composition. Against terrible zergs, it is possible to win with any builds. I could even design a mass sentry build that wins.
On January 08 2013 19:39 Loccstana wrote: All of the zerg you played against were floating massive amounts of resources and building the wrong army composition. Against terrible zergs, it is possible to win with any builds. I could even design a mass sentry build that wins.
This style is also used by whitera a lot and I have seen choya do it. It's defenitely a decent way to play out the matchup.
Had Waxangel help me out and move this thread. I figured I'd get it back on the strategy forums since the current map pool is what these builds were originally made for.
With that said, I remained top 16 GM in the beta for quite a while using these builds. The meta has evolved slightly on how to deal with them, versus what some of the pictures show the zergs doing for example, but more or less, it's the same deal.
Now and days you just want your end game comp to be mainly carriers//VR while getting ~5-6 tempests, HT and a couple colo. The build will more or less work out the same, but depending on if you scout hive or not you may need to go HT BEFORE transitioning to carriers/tempest. Most people now and days do this getting hydra/roach viper and hitting a timing. With cannons colo, vr and storm you can defend this perfectly fine however. Just make sure you're adding a lot of cannons in front of your 4th.
I am still a strong believer in air toss on maps like daybreak and akilon wastes. If you want to play a slow game and follow the proper transition routes posted here it's rather hard to lose, I think. Of course, I think on maps like daybreak this is almost something you have to do since SH on this map are incredibly strong once seiged in the middle.
In any case, I hope the guide helps people who are still looking for a way to play Skytoss.
I'll definitely be writing another guide when the Legacy of the Void beta comes out. I also have a few ideas on harassment builds based on the current information released, so hopefully the contributions will be helpful to you guys~
oh and edit: here are some really old videos of mainly skytoss army/transitions I do not think ended up in this thread somehow.
Man those HDStarcraft videos feel so nostalgic. He missed stuff on the map and was critisized for lack of game knowledge. But he still was a Masters-Player... and was the guy who got me into SC2 so ;-(
Just wondering, are you going straight fleet beacon for tempest/void ray/mothership vs swarm hosts while skipping colossi? When i was doing sos style builds i felt like going colossi was too slow to be an option, but i never figured out wether staying on (mostly) pure skytoss was actually a good idea.
On November 14 2014 08:59 Teoita wrote: Just wondering, are you going straight fleet beacon for tempest/void ray/mothership vs swarm hosts while skipping colossi? When i was doing sos style builds i felt like going colossi was too slow to be an option, but i never figured out wether staying on (mostly) pure skytoss was actually a good idea.
It really depends on how the zerg reacts. If they're kind enough to just expo and turn it into a game where you both get full saturation before doing anything at all it is, in fact, sometimes safe to just go straight air. However, as the thread describes, you more than likely need to transition multiple times before getting fleet beacon.
Generally it will go something like this: Fast expo -> 4 phx -> 4-6 VR -> ~3colo -> templar tech -> beacon tech.
Now, the point of being able to get to beacon tech is to do so quickly, but defensively. So, while it is sometimes the case that you see other pro players get this sort of composition, you're pretty much rushing out 2nd and 3rd base, then defending a 4th position while getting air all the while. Doing it this way allows you to have a very cost effective army ~20 minutes instead of the ~30-40 minute mark when you would usually see late game sky armies from toss!
Of course, I will disclaimer: Usually playing either variant of skytoss leads to some long games. You usually grab the win though, so it's give and take on what you find enjoyable/want to do~
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Purism aside, this is a pretty damn good guide on how to get safely to mass air in PVZ.
