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On January 03 2013 09:09 The_Goliath wrote:
First, thanks so much posting your guides to the matchups. I hate playing anything but standard, so when broke down all of the matchups and how I should open, this helps me a lot. It's also great to see a nice, good player who is willing to help the community out.
I have two general approach questions about the mid game and going into the late. These questions both pertain to HotS so i'm unsure if I should post them, but I am anyway.
1. In zvz, I have been opening very similar to WoL, and going for muta. My question is once the other guy has infestors out (if thats what hes going) and muta play has effectively been shut down, should i transition into swarm host? I have been having success with it, but i'm only low masters so doesnt mean anything Basically, I just would like to know the ideal follow up to muta if the other player doesnt muta as well.
2. In zvp (my most dreaded mu because of partings all in), I have heard that swarm host shuts down this ever so popular all in quite nicely, however, i am not good with them yet and havent had much success. Do you think this is a good/right response meaning I should just practice it more and get better with it? Or should I just be more gosu and hold with roach ling the entire time like WoL.
1. I don't like going for a swarm host follow up. It's been tried - and sometimes has worked - however I prefer to follow up with either fast ultralisks (throw down 2 evos, infestation pit) or roach/infestor/hydra myself (~ to Wings). Keep in mind that, as the mutalisk player, your mutas must do damage in order for you to be in a winning position during the mid game. However, with all of the mutalisk buffs in HOTS, this is very easy to do.
2. I don't find that you can get out swarm hosts in time to stop a properly executed immortal all in - however, do not quote me on that as I have not tried it. Assuming, however, that swarm hosts don't work - The players I have talked to and myself agree that the 2 base immortal all in in HOTS is near impossible to stop. What changed?
1. The protoss player no longer needs an observer - Mothership core gives detection
2. Extra damage from mothership core pushes the initial attack over the edge - ie - the extra damage makes it so that a very close hold for zergs in Wings will now be a protoss victory
3. Mass Recall means that the zerg can no longer base trade - Protoss will come out on top in all of these situations
I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits. This will be one of the major things that blizzard has to address in HOTS (Including how Zerg is supposed to respond to late game protoss Storm + collosus + Air ball (You can't atm.))
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On January 03 2013 09:39 Glon wrote:
I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits.
Do you need speed or +1 range? In WOL I go for +1cara to boost the lings as well, but haven't tested it at your level.
On a side note one thing that frustrates me to no end is that hydras still require a range upgrade... in HOTS this makes even less sense, what unit needs a range and speed upgrade? Just seems dumb to me. Just give them a default range of 6 and immo/sentry becomes much easier to hold while doing little to affect lategame.
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On January 03 2013 10:14 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:39 Glon wrote:
I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits.
Do you need speed or +1 range? In WOL I go for +1cara to boost the lings as well, but haven't tested it at your level. On a side note one thing that frustrates me to no end is that hydras still require a range upgrade... in HOTS this makes even less sense, what unit needs a range and speed upgrade? Just seems dumb to me. Just give them a default range of 6 and immo/sentry becomes much easier to hold while doing little to affect lategame.
hydra speed/range made sense in BW because they were available at hatchery tech and then you could upgrade them at lair tech. With them not being available so much later on in the tech tree, I can't imagine what made Blizzard think this was ok to keep this sort of terrible design. If you don't get them 'till later in the tech tree, they should just "come" with one of the upgrades already done.
That being said, at least they're usable in certain timings or certain scenarios in ZvP but largely unaffected since that's all we use them for in WoL anyways. Their usefulness, viability and versatility haven't really changed between the 2 games. I can use them for certain midgame timing attacks with roach/hydra and maybe viper tech in there by then, but other than that, they like every other unit we have become utterly useless after P and T reach a certain tech level. Like "lings vs 4+ collossi" level of uselessness.
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On January 03 2013 11:50 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 10:14 Defenestrator wrote:On January 03 2013 09:39 Glon wrote:
I have tried to get out hydralisks, however it is not enough as neither speed nor +1 range finishes before the attack hits.
Do you need speed or +1 range? In WOL I go for +1cara to boost the lings as well, but haven't tested it at your level. On a side note one thing that frustrates me to no end is that hydras still require a range upgrade... in HOTS this makes even less sense, what unit needs a range and speed upgrade? Just seems dumb to me. Just give them a default range of 6 and immo/sentry becomes much easier to hold while doing little to affect lategame. hydra speed/range made sense in BW because they were available at hatchery tech and then you could upgrade them at lair tech. With them not being available so much later on in the tech tree, I can't imagine what made Blizzard think this was ok to keep this sort of terrible design. If you don't get them 'till later in the tech tree, they should just "come" with one of the upgrades already done. That being said, at least they're usable in certain timings or certain scenarios in ZvP but largely unaffected since that's all we use them for in WoL anyways. Their usefulness, viability and versatility haven't really changed between the 2 games. I can use them for certain midgame timing attacks with roach/hydra and maybe viper tech in there by then, but other than that, they like every other unit we have become utterly useless after P and T reach a certain tech level. Like "lings vs 4+ collossi" level of uselessness.
I think it's an interesting concept to think about - giving hydra's an automatic 6 range and only have speed to research at the lair. I think that it would make roach/hydra times very effective - no longer does the zerg player have to sink 150 gas into an upgrade.
I would also comment that I'm not so sure +1 range helps all that much for specific timings. Think about it - Versus terran, your roaches will be able to make contact w/ marine tank. Versus protoss, players have gotten so good at forcefielding then kiting back that 6 range hydras likely won't get any more shots off than 5 range hydras. Versus zerg, when you don't have infestors, 6 range hydras are not all that important (as you will be getting hits of anyways).
So, basically, my point is that for timings I think in HOTS that range will be skipped in favor of speed. The extra speed boost gives hydras a kiting mobility that it has rarely seen in any other circumstance.
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Awesome guides!! Inspired me to keep going, and I finally hit silver ^-^
Question tho, when it comes to HotS (I'm super excited for these guides) how can you stop widow mines? And then a full bio army. I know I'm only silver, but I can't seem to stop this at all. I'm pretty sure I've lost 100% of my games to terran since I got promoted.
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On January 04 2013 12:50 IDLon wrote:
Awesome guides!! Inspired me to keep going, and I finally hit silver ^-^
Question tho, when it comes to HotS (I'm super excited for these guides) how can you stop widow mines? And then a full bio army. I know I'm only silver, but I can't seem to stop this at all. I'm pretty sure I've lost 100% of my games to terran since I got promoted.
Try to get 1 ling to trigger them, at low levels this should be very easy to do. Make sure to have a spore so you can kill the mines with lings/roaches or whatever.
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Nice - Some solid content here.
I'm going to be following up with more in depth guides - They will be linked here (with a teaser), however will be posted on my new team's websites (New team announcement coming within a week :D)
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I'm curious about the bane nest into speed, are there any specific reason you like this? apart from the mass ling build which I imagine it does give you an easier defense too.
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On January 05 2013 11:54 Glon wrote:Nice - Some solid content here. I'm going to be following up with more in depth guides - They will be linked here (with a teaser), however will be posted on my new team's websites (New team announcement coming within a week :D)
First of all. I really liked your guide!
I am looking forward to more detailed guides. As a High master player, I really am interested in small stuff: ovie timings; I.E. 32 vs 30, 1 vs 2 ovies at once, ect. To see if one can get to higher supply faster by 1-5 seconds. gas timing a 6min. vs 6:15. ect ect.
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If you'd care to elaborate as to how a 10/11 pool is supposed to do ANYTHING against everything but a hatch first?
Those 6 lings will do literally nothing against a standard pool first opening. How are you supposed to even kill a single drone with those lings?
Please share some replays of yours against pool first openings.
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On January 06 2013 05:28 Mahtasooma wrote:
If you'd care to elaborate as to how a 10/11 pool is supposed to do ANYTHING against everything but a hatch first?
Those 6 lings will do literally nothing against a standard pool first opening. How are you supposed to even kill a single drone with those lings?
Please share some replays of yours against pool first openings.
It's not about killing the drones. By going for a 10pool, you want to make at least 4 sets of zerglings, usually 5. If he went pool first, you can trade more effectively if he decides to engage and you delay mining time by harrassing his workers with your lings. If you choose to kill the hatch though, he has to pull drones to defend it. If he cancels, you delay his natural expansion while setting up your own. You want to expand before making queen with a 10pool. If your macro isnt poor, you will be able to get up 2 queens and a spine by the time he holds your attack and you can estimate the time he could possibly hit you with a speedling attack because you saw his gas timing.
If he goes hatch first, he has to pull more drones just to try to save the hatch. He will have to make 6-7 sets of lings and delay mining for a while.
It's not better but it can throw players off by a lot. Some players don't know how to respond to this, some think its an all in and think they are ahead.
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To be honest, I always go 15 Hatch in ZvZ and there is nothing less scary then a 10Pool. You can identify the timing based on when your OL scouts the lings hatching and you can simply defend with lings of your own. I haven't had a game I can recall where I wasn't miles ahead of a 10pool.
If you go 15hatch, 16gas however, that's a different story...
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Great guides, now im with my zerg in golden league, thanks men.
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I found that going 15 hatch is very risky if the other player does a 6 or 7 pool.
My normal strat is 14 pool 14 gas with a scouting drone. My scouting drone checks if the is rushing, if he is rushing, i act accordingly. If he hatch first, i try to use the scout drone to deny and delay his hatch. If not, use the scouting drone to distract his drones.
I try to get zling speed first so i can attack/harass if he ain't doing all-ins.
On January 06 2013 07:18 Kraelog wrote:
To be honest, I always go 15 Hatch in ZvZ and there is nothing less scary then a 10Pool. You can identify the timing based on when your OL scouts the lings hatching and you can simply defend with lings of your own. I haven't had a game I can recall where I wasn't miles ahead of a 10pool.
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Hi, thanks for your guide, it's really nice and detailed. I was redirected from Stephano's ZvP build order and found your guide here 
I have questions, however, regarding the ZvZ build. Say I'm going the standard 14 pool 15 hatchery. If the opponent chooses to 6 pool rush, the lings will reach my natural by 3:00 (on DayBreak), at this time, I have just put down my hatchery at the natural, and my pool is almost finished, my supply should be about 16/18 --- should I cancel the expo hatchery or defend it with drones?
Thank you
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On January 16 2013 13:38 Valhalla09 wrote:Hi, thanks for your guide, it's really nice and detailed. I was redirected from Stephano's ZvP build order and found your guide here I have questions, however, regarding the ZvZ build. Say I'm going the standard 14 pool 15 hatchery. If the opponent chooses to 6 pool rush, the lings will reach my natural by 3:00 (on DayBreak), at this time, I have just put down my hatchery at the natural, and my pool is almost finished, my supply should be about 16/18 --- should I cancel the expo hatchery or defend it with drones? Thank you
If he is focus firing the natural hatchery cancel it at last second. Do not pull drones that would be a bad idea.
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please make a ZvP guide for HOTS when the toss goes skytoss.
Can't beat that skyball, especially with HTs and void rays and I can't seem to have anyway to break down the mass cannon chargelot defense
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On January 16 2013 16:04 GoldforGolden wrote:
please make a ZvP guide for HOTS when the toss goes skytoss.
Can't beat that skyball, especially with HTs and void rays and I can't seem to have anyway to break down the mass cannon chargelot defense
Here's a replay where I fought air toss (while super behind btw) http://www.mediafire.com/?bmzx7d7b04zmqxh
I think I got lucky but that's the most success i have had vs air toss with that composition you see in that replay. Otherwise it's a loss 99% of the time I think.
Have to kill them before they get to much (this game I don't really do that >>). Take what you want from that but yeah hope it helps you a little bit.
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EPT
