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[G]ZvZ Speedling Expand

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 22:57:39
January 02 2011 21:34 GMT
#1
ZvZ Speedling expand

[image loading]

Introduction

Hello and glad to see you reading my guide. If you opened this topic you probably have trouble with this match up, or atleast you're confused by it. I'd be glad to tell you how I do my ZvZ's and share my ideas about the matchup.

Rank and other off-topic banter
+ Show Spoiler +
Please note that the following is written by a 2250 Diamond Zerg. If you are higher diamond than that and you prefer to compare ranks rather than information, please share your views in this topic as well , I'd be glad to spark up a discussion.


The build: A quick introduction.
The build that I use as the title suggests is a speedling expand. It focusses on getting early map controll with speedlings to ensure your natural expansion to go up without the fuss of defending for the first half of the match when going hatch first.

Buildorder
  • Send first spawned drone to scout ( Stylistic choice, reasons in the spoiler tags. )
    + Show Spoiler +

    I prefer to send out a scouting drone because of the ease of defending early pool builds, and the ability to hatchblock should the opponent go for hatch first.
    Some people prefer to stay in the dark and try to destroy early pool builds with good drone micro. I however prefer to get a 12 pool when facing a 6-7 pool because of the ease it gives of defending versus the lings. Besides, you're ahead by 6 drones anyway. Still, this isnt a neccesairy step if you are good enough with your drone micro.

  • 9 Overlord
  • 14 gas
  • 14 pool
  • 16 overlord
  • Start taking off 2 drones when you have 88 gas.
  • Build queen + zergling speed as pool finishes.
  • Zerglings until 22 food
  • 22 Overlord
  • 22 Hatchery
  • Continious zerglings until 26

After that everything is based off of scouting.

The build: Further explanation and why it works.
The reason why I use this build is its versatility and its macropower. After experimenting with Hatch first builds I came to the conclusion that it isnt actually more economical versus a pool-hatch build.

Zerg versus zerg in the early game relies completely on getting map controll, and holding on to it. Going quick roaches ensures that you need to defend until you get a sufficient number of roaches to come out on top versus speedlings. Going hatch first ensures that your speed research is delayed by a good amount, still giving up map controll versus a speedling build.

Map controll = droning. If you are sure your opponent can't move out for a while, you can drone up your expansion, and a macro advantage in ZvZ almost always guarantees a victory. Unlike for example ZvP, where an unscouted DT or Voidray can completely wreck your world.

Lets say we are up against a hatch first build. As you move out and reach his expansion, his lings will pop out. Probably enough to be even with your lings. However, as your speed upgrade finishes well before his, your zerglings will reach his base in no time.

As you pressure him into making more and more lings ( or even spinecrawlers. ) you drone up. Don't overdo it. 5 – 8 drones is enough for an advantage. If you're lucky you might even snipe his hatchery before he can retaliate well enough. As he gets speed himself you should retreat and rely on your defenders advantage. This tiny drone advantage is often enough to get a significant advantage in the mid game.

Scouting information ( 26 food and beyond ).
Here is a list of responses I use when scouting certain things. They made sure I maintain my macro advantage in many a game. I send my first overlord to my opponents base and hover it between their ramp and natural expansion, this ensures that you know when he gets his expo and what leaves his base.

Hatchery first.
+ Show Spoiler +

When you scout a hatchery first, you build more and more speedlings. His production will be behind yours as your queen is out sooner and your natural expansion hatchery will finish not all that long after his hatchery.

You should be able to outnumber his ling numbers and thus put significant damage on his hatchery. Make sure you engage his lings outside of ramps or tiny spaces. Your speedlings will surround his slowlings much faster in the open, giving you a greater advantage in battle.

If he puts down a spine don't hesitate to try and snipe it. Keep the pressure on him until his speedupgrade finishes. This ensures him making a lot of lings, any tiny drone advantage he will try to get will be punished by losing the ling number battle and being overrun. Make the occasional drone between speedling production and fall back as his speedupgrade or spinecrawler finishes.

Drone your heart out and react to his followup. As you near 50 gas with your lonely gas drone, build a banelings nest and put 2 drones back in gas. This gives you a defenders advantage versus speedlings. If you scout a roach warren in his main build 2 spines near your natural and cancel the baneling nest, building a roach warren instead.

You wont be able to match his roach numbers, but because you have lots of speedlings, a dash of roaches and spinecrawler support, you will be able to hold most pushes easily. You can even catch retreating roaches with your speedlings to kill them off.


Spinecrawlers up in the main or near the ramp.
+ Show Spoiler +

This shows you a critical thing. The opponent wants to defend for a while so he can tech or build an army. You have complete mapcontroll. Don't be light on your S and D buttons here. Drone up and get a roach warren. Build a spine if you are making non-stop drones. Keep a zergling outside his base to see when he is moving out. The possibilities of his choices include a one-base roach push ( often with +1 range attack ), a 2 hatch speedling agression or a one base mutalisk play. So change appropriately.

I find getting a roach army and building one or two spines to be sufficient against most pushes. But make sure you build an evolution chamber so you can put spores around your natural and main mineral lines incase he goes for mutalisks.

Roach warren.
+ Show Spoiler +

If you scout a roach warren, retreat your zerglings and make one yourself. Put 2 drones back on gas and build a couple of overlords. Make 2 or 3 drones as you stock up on minerals and gas. Once your roach warren pops you should have enough resources to build around 6 or 7 roaches. Enough to hold a roach push easily.

If his push doesnt come quick, build a spinecrawler or two. This makes engaging your natural with his roaches non-cost effective unless he greatly outnumbers your roaches ( which he shouldn't, you have the macro advantage after all ).

Speedling expand ( roughly or exactly the same build as this one ).
+ Show Spoiler +

This one is a bit more tricky. As his speedling numbers will match yours, you have to make a banelings nest once you hit 50 gas with your drone. When you put it down put 2 drones back in gas and continiue to build up speedlings.

Engage only when it favours you. If he has a better surround don't be afraid to simply pull back, he will crush your ling forces with ease if you let him get a better surround.
Keep the pressure on him. Make sure your ling forces are near his base, forcing some more zerglings out of him. There is a great difference between equal ling forces near your opponents base, and the same forces near yours.

Make banelings in a place where you are sure he won't engage for a while. This might mean you have to retreat back to your base for a while to make sure the banelings have enough time to complete. I have put some micro-tips for baneling usage later in this guide.

After the second engagement ( army trade or just general brawls ) build a roach warren and transition into a regular midgame roach army. If he continiues to build banelings, your roaches should be able to tank them.
After this micro-intensive phase, you'll want to macro up and do general midgame stuff ( build roaches, make sure he doesnt go spire and delaying his third ect. ). You're probably equal in macro right now. So don't let your guard down. This guide won't go lenghty about the midgame or lategame, as I feel my knowledge about those are not as sufficient to write about on TL. However I will put some tips that work for me in the stylistic choices section.


Early lair + 2 gas.
+ Show Spoiler +

Probably mutalisks. Make an evo chamber and start making queens from both your hatcheries. Start your lair after your second queen in your main pops. Build lots of drones and transition into roaches. When you scout his spire building, place a couple of sporecrawlers around your mineral line. His muta's have to do damage and because you have so much anti air, he won't be able to.

Simply outmacro and 1a into his base with a roach/hydra force.


Micro tips and stylistic choices I use.
This is an extra section filled with general ZvZ tips.

Eggs inside your controll group.
This ensures your lings and roaches will be inside your controll group before they spawn. Giving you more time to focus on the battle.

The trick is to spend your larva in waves. For example select 6 larva and make those into zergling eggs. With the eggs still selected, press Shift + your controll group. This will add the eggs to your controll group. As the units pop, they will remain in the controll group and so you won't have any lings left behind or a bad rally point ruining your day.

Baneling spread and controll grouping.
+ Show Spoiler +
When you morph banelings, always keep them on a seperate hotkey. I use 2 or 3, depending on the stage of the game. Make sure your banelings aren't inside your other controll groups. You don't want to accidently detonate them on roaches when you attack with your lings.

When you are done pressing 'E' , shift-controll click the banelings in your army controll group and press Controll + current controll group to 'clean' your controll group from banelings. Then put your banelings on a different hotkey, like 2.

When your banelings are on a different controll group, click each baneling individually and give it a different rally point. Fan it out so each baneling will be a good bit away from his fellow banelings.
Before
[image loading]
After
[image loading]
When given a move command
[image loading]
When you move your banelings now, you will have a line of seperate banelings without all the fuss of microing them during a battle. You can just move them and make sure each baneling has a maximum amount of kills each. If your opponent tries to combat this file of banelings by sending one ling in attack move towards you, just attackmove with your lings to keep your blings protected.

Your banelings are cost-effective when they hit 4 or more zerglings, or 3 or more banelings. Never attack move across the map to make sure you don't lose them.


Taking care of lings when they are attacking your destructable rocks.
+ Show Spoiler +
This one is an example of how to react to the opponents zerglings when they are trying to break your rocks on say, blistering sands, assuming you have banelings and roaches. Send your banelings into the lings escape path. On blistering that's most often the brush. Then attack with your roaches from the south. If he simply moves his lings away, they will run headfirst into banelings, giving you loads of kills.


Putting all your overlords on one controll group during the first stages of the game
+ Show Spoiler +
This one is more of an ease of use for me. If I have all my overlords on one controll group and I spot mutalisks, I can more easily select all my overlords and retreat them to one specific point ( like a sporecrawler ) more quickly rather than leaving them across the map for my opponent to pick off.

Also I can just press 0g to make all my overlords spread creep. If I have placed them far enough apart from eachother I can ensure a good and quick creepbed.


Spawning pool placement
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
I like to place my spawning pool slightly overlapping my gas way, but not blocking the gas.
This gives you a nice choke to work with, should a speedling runby ever occur. You can also block it off with a queen on hold position.
Attempted runby, foiled by queen placement.
[image loading]

This also prevents someone blocking your gas with an evolution chamber.


Roach/ling micro
+ Show Spoiler +

If you have a roach/zergling force, you should always try to move your speedlings behind the roaches before you engage. This traps them into place and makes sure they can't retreat if they find the fight to be non-beneficial.

Push, wait, this isn't winable.
[image loading]
RETREAT, GAAAHH
[image loading]
In the end, noone got to the chopper
[image loading]



General tips and common sence
  • Fungal growth onehits banelings. If the opponent has forced hydra's on you because he went mutalisk, don't forget to get an infestor out. To catch the muta's or to counter his banelings. Its never a bad idea to tech for infestor versus baneling or mutalisks.
  • If the opponent is going hydra with his roaches, be sure to get burrow and burrowmovement for roaches. If you can unburrow on top of his hydraball, you can decimate it quite quickly and overrun the remaining roaches.
  • Always put your roaches on an additional controll group when you have hydra's in the mix. ( Hydra+ roaches on 1, roaches on 2 for example ) Before you engage, you can easily press 2 and get the roaches infront first, then attack to shield your hydra's from banelings.
  • If you attack in the midgame with your roach force and the opponent opened speedlings, ALWAYS leave 5 roaches behind on your ramp on hold position. You don't want him equaling the hurt on you because you left your door open while your roaches were attacking him.
  • Keep one speedling on the opponents future third. Not only can you scout when he is taking it, but you have a good chance of killing the drone if he doesnt bring support, delaying his third by a few precious seconds.
  • Don't forget transfuse in those clutch engagements. If he is focussing a roach with a small force you can easily make him waste more shots on that roach, delaying damage on the rest of your army.


Replays
Eik is my username. This section contains both wins and losses to keep things objective.

Number of replays: 10
Wins:7 Losses:3
+ Show Spoiler +

WIN - Speedling Expand versus a Late expand. - extra: instead of going for regular build, went for slightly faster baneling nest before hatch.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123921-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

LOSS - Speedling Expand versus a 14 gas 14 pool build. - extra: How to lose a ZvZ if your micro is exceptionally, exceptionally horrible ( didn't see the banes >.< ).
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123925-1v1-zerg-metalopolis

WIN - Speedling Expand versus an 8 pool on scrap station.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123926-1v1-zerg-scrap-station

WIN - Speedling Expand versus a 14 pool 14 gas build. After first banelings detonated on my drones I fell back and went into defensive mode with my banelings. Losing my hatch, the opponent transitioned into 2 hatch speedling baneling. Slowly macroing back and winning in the end with superior micro and slight macro advantage.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123929-1v1-zerg-scrap-station

WIN - Speedling Expand versus 13 gas 13 pool. Opponent droned a bit too much and banelings coupled with speedlings overthrew him utterly.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123931-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

WIN - Speedling Expand versus 1 base roach. Opponent directly went for roaches, then teched to burrow. After a couple of brawls, the opponent leaves the game due to the imminent outmacroing.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123934-1v1-zerg-delta-quadrant

WIN - Speedling Expand versus overpool -> roach transition.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123936-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

WIN - Speedling Expand versus 15 hatch 15 pool ( NOTE, the build ret goes doesn't involve going straight to roaches, this guy did and lost the game due to my ability to snipe the hatchery ).
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123939-1v1-zerg-delta-quadrant

LOSS - Speedling Expand versus early INBASE hatch first then pool then natural expo hatch. Impeccable micro lost me like 15 zerglings to one baneling. Lategame lost due to expansions being blocked.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123943-1v1-zerg-lost-temple

LOSS - Speedling Expand versus a late expand build. Sniped hatchery with speedlings, but later lost to mutalisks containing me. He got more bases up with his midgame mapcontroll and overran me.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/123944-1v1-zerg-lost-temple



Conclusion

I hope this guide helps someone out. Either by giving you a solid opening in ZvZ, or by broadening your knowledge about the match up. I use it in all my ZvZ's, and often it gives me a good advantage in the midgame. I find it to be the safest macro-oriented build for ZvZ out there, and I wouldn't ever hatch first anymore.

Let the discussion commence

( will post more pictures, including replays later ).
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-02 21:50:09
January 02 2011 21:49 GMT
#2
What if you scout speedlings + banelings w/o expand? Or just speedlings w/o expand?
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-02 21:56:59
January 02 2011 21:56 GMT
#3
Well, This build is basically a normal speedling/baneling build with an expand behind it.
Some people go for an inbase hatchery and then mass speedlings. Which is roughly the same, except the placement of the hatchery is different ( and in my opinion, worse ).

You should be able to match any speedling build, the only difference this build has is that the baneling nest is slightly delayed, as you're taking drones off of gas for a little bit to keep speedling production to a maximum.

A speedling expand and a regular speedling/bane build are basically reacted to the same way. Except a regular speedling/baneling build has banelings out quicker. But with good building placement and micro that shouldn't be that much of a problem.

I will post pictures of my building/queen placement soon .
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
January 02 2011 22:24 GMT
#4
I've been doing a similar opening for a while, but in zvz shouldnt you go lair first?
I am under the impression that an important rule of zvz is to wait until your opponent expands or until you have the initiative before you expand. Also, grabbing a fast lair and then a spire/hydra den before the expansion can get rid of the timing attack window after your lings died and your expo is coming up.
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
January 02 2011 22:27 GMT
#5
I dislike pure speedling openings in ZvZ, especially pure speedling expand. Spling/Bling play is too strong against it. Your baneling nest and banelings will be too late. If you want I will play against you going spling/bling and you can do this build. ZvZ is probably my strongest matchup right now (probably win 90% of my ZvZs) and I almost always win early game with splinging and blinging and I have not lost to a FE in quite some time.

2564D Currently
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
ribboo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1842 Posts
January 02 2011 22:32 GMT
#6
Just a note on the Baneling micro. After watching mrbitters coaching-sessions with egMachine, I've started doing as him. Morph 2 lings at a time into banes, rally them straight into his mineral line and forget about them. They are your enemies problem now.

Works extremely good ;D
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-02 23:32:23
January 02 2011 23:24 GMT
#7
Why do you choose 14 Gas 14 Pool over 12 Pool 12 Gas?

Your build does not appear to be mineral starved -- trading 50 minerals for 2 bonus Larvae is surely the superior choice. Furthermore, the motivation for your very early scout no longer applies -- rather than having to scout early enough to decide between 12 Pool and 14 GasPool, you only have to scout early enough to decide whether or not to Drone up to 16.

(But honestly, I would get the early Zerglings anyways and go rush; if I want 16 Drones, I'll get the rest after my first 4-6 Zerglings hatch and are on their way)


14 GasPool doesn't get the Queen early enough to outproduce a 14 Hatchery anyways.
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
January 02 2011 23:38 GMT
#8
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.

The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.

I've always stuck to 14 gas/14 pool simply because you're almost never behind economically from the start. Then again, I haven't played 12 pool/12 gas before. So I do not know the difference.
eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
January 03 2011 00:03 GMT
#9
I think this is at least approximately how you should open mass lings (unlike all other mass sling posts). The goal of mass lings SHOULD BE to delay your opponents hatch as long as possible while freely expanding yourself. Unlike most idiots who suggest that MASS LINGS is the key to victory, OP reconizes that lings are only a means to an end, mainly winning the macro war.

If you see enemy roach/queen blocking (which is a decent counter to early ling heavy play), get your natural up asap, don't try to break his wall, just leave enough pressure to prevent his natural easily getting up and drone hard (as well as getting your own roach warren and evo chamber asap). He WILL see this with his OL chilling at your natural, but he can't do shit until he gets roach speed or he risks a ling runby. If makes enough roaches to block and still peek out to simply force his hatch up, you have already pulled far ahead in macro, and as long as you UPGRADE your roaches and keep an eye on his numbers (overseer contaminate will be especially damning on his 1 hatch), it will be an easy gg.

I usually am the guy responding with the roach/queen block when I realize whats up, and if they try to outmacro me and go roaches themselves instead of producing enough lings to kill +1 roaches with decent micro (hint, its a big fucking number), im totally fucked. Don't know about the exact BO, but I think this is the right idea here.

Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
January 03 2011 00:31 GMT
#10
On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.

The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.

That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food.
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
January 03 2011 01:00 GMT
#11
On January 03 2011 09:31 Hurkyl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.

The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.

That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food.

You don't need more, you just need good bling micro. If your bling micro is good, your lings should never even be touched, not to mention you will have speed much more quickly then a 14 hatch build will. Only way a 14 hatch survives is superb crawler placement, queens blocking ramp, and some luck. I have faced someone who went 14 hatch on LT, blocked his ramp with queens and had 2 crawlers up and a bunch of lings, and I still beat him while on 1 base, and I always go 14 gas/14 pool.

If 12/gas/12 Pool is really that much better I'll have to try it out. But i like the timings of everything and am comfortable with 14/14 so we will see.
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
N037
Profile Joined September 2008
Australia9 Posts
January 03 2011 01:09 GMT
#12
I like this Chaosvuistje, it feels very strong.

Does anyone have any tips for drone micro vs 6-10 pool? I need to get better at defending with just workers until my pool finishes. Thank you in advance! :D
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
January 03 2011 01:42 GMT
#13
On January 03 2011 10:00 MorsCerta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 09:31 Hurkyl wrote:
On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.

The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.

That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food.

You don't need more, you just need good bling micro. If your bling micro is good, your lings should never even be touched, not to mention you will have speed much more quickly then a 14 hatch build will. Only way a 14 hatch survives is superb crawler placement, queens blocking ramp, and some luck. I have faced someone who went 14 hatch on LT, blocked his ramp with queens and had 2 crawlers up and a bunch of lings, and I still beat him while on 1 base, and I always go 14 gas/14 pool.

If 12/gas/12 Pool is really that much better I'll have to try it out. But i like the timings of everything and am comfortable with 14/14 so we will see.

The OP wasn't getting a quick Baneling Nest -- he was trying to outproduce Hatch first builds.
BroboCop
Profile Joined December 2010
United States373 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 01:46:58
January 03 2011 01:45 GMT
#14
anyone that goes 14gas/14pool bling wars will gg u due to 12 more money invested in zerglings rather than the hatch, this could be viable against a roach player on a map such as on steppes of war, delta quad, close lt/meta u get the point. 3k diamond zerg.

edit: several ppl have done builds similar to this against me (opening 14/14) [i crush it everytime] then plopping down a hatch around this time, however, my ling micro is quite sick so that could be why i smash ppl so hard.
eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 01:59:46
January 03 2011 01:47 GMT
#15
On January 03 2011 10:09 N037 wrote:
I like this Chaosvuistje, it feels very strong.

Does anyone have any tips for drone micro vs 6-10 pool? I need to get better at defending with just workers until my pool finishes. Thank you in advance! :D


stack them with mineral move ---> a-move, R&R, your done, can try pulling if you have final few lings surrounded

-edit-

I don't think that a 6 pool poses a threat to the point where you want to scout earlier than normal tbh, just work on not freaking out when you see it coming and you should be okay.
Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
GT
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)141 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 01:57:53
January 03 2011 01:55 GMT
#16
i absolutely would not ever scout with my first spawned drone, there is no point in doing that please trust me. say you are playing xel naga caverns and you want to open 14g14p youd generally just scout on 12 or 13 depending on the opponent and map.

the point of this is so that your drone will arrive at there base after youve laid your gas down (because before that with this build order there really is no logical reason for deviating from your true build before the 14 food mark) so you can see if he went early pool or hatch first in which case you either cut a drone and lay a 13pool, continue with your build as normal and make more lings to pressure your opponent, or just cut your pool and lay down a hatch immediately.

also, pulling a drone that early will hurt your economy MUCH more than you think, the more drones you have the less it matters but when you're taking one of your earliest drones and sacrificing a huge amount of economy to simply delay a hatchery by 5-10 seconds or so when you could just one base a little longer and pump more lings to accommodate for that instead is pretty irrational to do (also the mirror hatch option as well).
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
January 03 2011 02:13 GMT
#17
On January 03 2011 10:42 Hurkyl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 10:00 MorsCerta wrote:
On January 03 2011 09:31 Hurkyl wrote:
On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.

The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.

That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food.

You don't need more, you just need good bling micro. If your bling micro is good, your lings should never even be touched, not to mention you will have speed much more quickly then a 14 hatch build will. Only way a 14 hatch survives is superb crawler placement, queens blocking ramp, and some luck. I have faced someone who went 14 hatch on LT, blocked his ramp with queens and had 2 crawlers up and a bunch of lings, and I still beat him while on 1 base, and I always go 14 gas/14 pool.

If 12/gas/12 Pool is really that much better I'll have to try it out. But i like the timings of everything and am comfortable with 14/14 so we will see.

The OP wasn't getting a quick Baneling Nest -- he was trying to outproduce Hatch first builds.

Thanks? I know. My posts are concerning sling/bling vs FE's. I consider a speedling expand a FE in ZvZ. And someone brought up 12pool vs 14 and 14 hatch so I was responding to them.
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
Ouga
Profile Joined March 2008
Finland645 Posts
January 03 2011 03:21 GMT
#18
This is hugely popular build nowadays due to evolution. Roaches and/or queens tend to counter banes -> people don't do banebuilds. Spling fe is probably the strongest build if you don't expect banes, but when they come, you lose. I don't see anyone defending splingbling with this. So, it's somewhat risky considering opponent can always just transit to blings if he's got spling bo, and be likely to win.

However most common strats tend to have either roachwarren in it, or hat first. Spling bo works great against both, sometimes it even kills them if they don't expect it (they see you plant hat and expect droning), and when it doesn't it still forces them to make units to defend. Mostly gives map dominance for a while, if opponent decides to do something like roach fe.
Zergtastic
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia81 Posts
January 03 2011 03:30 GMT
#19
Just in the interest of adding more information into the thread, what if they go for banelings? Im not saying its a perfect counter to the build, Im just curious in what you should do if you scout a baneling nest, while using this build.
Forever wearing a leather gracket
dCrumpets
Profile Joined September 2010
United States22 Posts
January 03 2011 03:38 GMT
#20
Faster banelings would be very scary to face simply because they can have as many lings as you while still morphing banelings because you spent 300 on the early hatchery. In addition, their nest will be up faster. How do you stop 1 base baneling/sling? Because it seems like most zerg mirrors now are either a fast expand or a zergling baneling opening, and at least fast expand can sometimes defend with spine crawlers and the like depending on the map.

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