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On January 03 2011 12:30 Zergtastic wrote:
Just in the interest of adding more information into the thread, what if they go for banelings? Im not saying its a perfect counter to the build, Im just curious in what you should do if you scout a baneling nest, while using this build.
imho thats fine, expo and cut ling production and go roach, hold them from making their natural as long as possible with your early lings, until baneling speed you shouldnt have any problem with banes offcreep
I don't think OPs goal is to win with slings, just get early macro advantage by forcing late natural/inbase hatch, you can transition to roaches (as you should) as soon as you spot an enemy roach warren or baneling nest, just keep your slings harassing their natural as long as possible to delay them getting it up
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There is indeed a timing in which an early banelings nest will get you in trouble. But when I see such a thing with my early scouting drone ( not giving up on this one, might have a mineral disadvantage, but I value the information above all else ), I can simply plug some holes with an evo chamber.
My general way of going around this though is when I scout or suspect an early banelingsnest, I simply leave 2 drones in gas and delay my 3rd and 4th set of lings slightly. This will get the nest out quicker than usual in this build, but still after speed. This should give you ample time to defend with banelings of your own.
Should the opponent go for something like baneling nest with the first 50 gas he collects, that is the major obstacle in this build. However, his build relies SOLELY on his banelings doing tremendous amounts of damage to your economy. He isnt even with you unless he does.
That is why simply defending this first burst of banelings with minimal drone losses will often net you the win. When he moves in I put my queen in the little choke I made with my spawning pool ( as I explained under micro tips ) but slightly back, this will trick the banelings into moving into the tiny choke. If the opponent is smart, he will go around. All the while his banelings are being pummeled by the queen. Because he has to travel so far, you can easily run your drones away and circle your hatchery to let the queen kill the banelings off.
Do note that when only one baneling is left it does not matter that much if it hits healthy drones. One baneling doesn't kill drones, it simply wounds them into the red.
But yes, should his banelings kill off a majority of your drones, its only fair for him to win. After all, he invested everything in that first attack. ZvZ early is micro-intensive as hell, if you can't beat him with good micro, get better micro  . That has always been my philosophy behind the match up.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Hey.
Nice guide. I hope you keep on improving it.
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On January 03 2011 19:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:There is indeed a timing in which an early banelings nest will get you in trouble. But when I see such a thing with my early scouting drone ( not giving up on this one, might have a mineral disadvantage, but I value the information above all else ), I can simply plug some holes with an evo chamber. My general way of going around this though is when I scout or suspect an early banelingsnest, I simply leave 2 drones in gas and delay my 3rd and 4th set of lings slightly. This will get the nest out quicker than usual in this build, but still after speed. This should give you ample time to defend with banelings of your own. Should the opponent go for something like baneling nest with the first 50 gas he collects, that is the major obstacle in this build. However, his build relies SOLELY on his banelings doing tremendous amounts of damage to your economy. He isnt even with you unless he does. That is why simply defending this first burst of banelings with minimal drone losses will often net you the win. When he moves in I put my queen in the little choke I made with my spawning pool ( as I explained under micro tips ) but slightly back, this will trick the banelings into moving into the tiny choke. If the opponent is smart, he will go around. All the while his banelings are being pummeled by the queen. Because he has to travel so far, you can easily run your drones away and circle your hatchery to let the queen kill the banelings off. Do note that when only one baneling is left it does not matter that much if it hits healthy drones. One baneling doesn't kill drones, it simply wounds them into the red. But yes, should his banelings kill off a majority of your drones, its only fair for him to win. After all, he invested everything in that first attack. ZvZ early is micro-intensive as hell, if you can't beat him with good micro, get better micro . That has always been my philosophy behind the match up.
What about when the person your facing kills your scouting drone with his first set of lings and then drops the baneling nest? This is what I do every game. I keep pumping lings and put pressure on my opponent till my bling nest is done and then fall back when it finishes, morph in some blings and move in.
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I dont leave my scouting drone at your base to die. It serves no purpose other than to scout the first building and the timing of it.
If I scout a pool first, without a gas. He probably wants to go 1base roach or get banelings up right as the pool finishes.
If I scout a gas before pool, great, hes getting speed first or he is delaying his speed research to get banelings out quicker, meaning I can pressure him until his bling nest pops up.
The point being is that you HAVE to do damage with that build, and I simply have to defend. Defending in ZvZ is a whole lot more easier than attacking well.
I dont find an early bling nest to be that hazardous. If I would be I'd go 1base roach everygame.
::Edit::
My Starcraft computer has for unknown reasons stopped working. My screen froze in a thousand different colours, and when I rebooted it couldnt get signal via the DVI channel. So I'm not able to provide sufficient ammounts of replays YET. Don't worry though, I'm collecting good amounts of ZvZ replays from myself now, I should be having a lot on this thread in a day or three.
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On January 03 2011 23:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I dont leave my scouting drone at your base to die. It serves no purpose other than to scout the first building and the timing of it.
If I scout a pool first, without a gas. He probably wants to go 1base roach or get banelings up right as the pool finishes.
If I scout a gas before pool, great, hes getting speed first or he is delaying his speed research to get banelings out quicker, meaning I can pressure him until his bling nest pops up.
The point being is that you HAVE to do damage with that build, and I simply have to defend. Defending in ZvZ is a whole lot more easier than attacking well.
I dont find an early bling nest to be that hazardous. If I would be I'd go 1base roach everygame.
::Edit::
My Starcraft computer has for unknown reasons stopped working. My screen froze in a thousand different colours, and when I rebooted it couldnt get signal via the DVI channel. So I'm not able to provide sufficient ammounts of replays YET. Don't worry though, I'm collecting good amounts of ZvZ replays from myself now, I should be having a lot on this thread in a day or three.
Normal bling builds go speed -> bling nest. How will you pressure until bling nest pops if you are using the same build or your gas and pool are later? You will either be even or behind in ling count.
I find it much easier to attack than defend in ZvZ, and I would much rather have the battle happening far away from my base. If you go 1 base roach vs spling/bling I would simply drop a roach warren and expand. Then you are now behind until you reach critical mass of roaches, which won't be before I have a good amount of roaches and splings myself. Roach/Spling > Pure Roach.
Not to mention if you open speedlings there is a window where your roaches aren't out yet but you are probably saving larvae for them, I have no trouble finding this window as I am usually in my opponents base or natural.
Just to clarify, I am not saying Speedling expand isn't a viable build, I am just saying against someone who plays like myself, super aggressive spling/bling, you will have issues unless your micro is spot on.
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Of course you're not claiming this build to not be viable. You're simply noting timings and ways this build may be unstable. And I appreciate that. In turn, I do not claim this build to be the next super build in ZvZ. Just one of the options available.
However, with the timings of my build, I am not behind in zergling numbers compared to a 14 gas 14 pool baneling build. When you place the hatchery down, you have aproximately 400 resources, no spawn larva out yet, and no larva waiting for resources. As zerglings are so cheap, you won't delay your ling numbers by any significant margin.
This build in itself is no more economical than a regular 14 gas 14 pool build. It gets the hatchery up at the natural by providing early map controll, a way to delay the opponents hatchery.
In a regular 14gas/14 pool speedling/baneling brawl, good micro will make you victorious. You still have to micro well in order to come out on top, just like you have to micro well to make up for the fact that your hatchery is delayed when compared to mine.
And to your roach comment. 1 base roach is simply inferior to this build. Yes you will have roaches out faster, but you have to stick to your ramp unless you want my speedlings to wither those roach numbers down. This gives me plenty of time to build up a reasonable amount of roaches.
If the opponent does decide to move out before he has enough roaches, simply do a runby and kill off some drones/queen. If he doesnt retreat back to his base, you can simply move back once you did some damage to the opponent and attack the roaches from the rear, keeping them busy while your roaches pop up.
Once you killed off his push, you have a hatchery at your natural expansion, and he doesn't. You've set yourself up for a midgame, and he set himself up for the early game. Having lost his map controll, your opponent will die a slow macro death as you drone up your expansion whilst maintaining equal roachnumbers with your opponent.
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I love you for this guide. I've got the same question as the poster above, because I love +1 spling expand too. I find them especially great against a 1 base roach or muta build.
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On January 04 2011 00:10 stickymayhem wrote:
Thanks this is my worst matchup and i'll definitely try this.
However I am a huge fan of +1 lings and find it is extremely effective. Is there a way to incorporate that into this build?
Hmmm. Interesting question. But I wouldn't suggest doing +1 lings.
The interresting thing about ZvZ is the interraction between roaches, zerglings and banelings.
In a sence, roaches are the best tier one unit. Least larva heavy, biggest hp and largest burst damage.
The reason I go speedling first is that you give up map controll for a slight amount of time if you go for roaches. This gives the oppenent time to get a hatchery up. You transition into roaches because once a roach ball gets too big, lings wont damage it enough. Infact, if the roaches are +1, they will completely decimate your ling forces.
Because banelings are so strong against zerglings, and because once roaches get their upgrades they start to lose their effectiveness, I wouldn't advocate getting +1 melee early in ZvZ using this build.
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On January 03 2011 23:55 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Of course you're not claiming this build to not be viable. You're simply noting timings and ways this build may be unstable. And I appreciate that. In turn, I do not claim this build to be the next super build in ZvZ. Just one of the options available.
However, with the timings of my build, I am not behind in zergling numbers compared to a 14 gas 14 pool baneling build. When you place the hatchery down, you have aproximately 400 resources, no spawn larva out yet, and no larva waiting for resources. As zerglings are so cheap, you won't delay your ling numbers by any significant margin.
This build in itself is no more economical than a regular 14 gas 14 pool build. It gets the hatchery up at the natural by providing early map controll, a way to delay the opponents hatchery.
In a regular 14gas/14 pool speedling/baneling brawl, good micro will make you victorious. You still have to micro well in order to come out on top, just like you have to micro well to make up for the fact that your hatchery is delayed when compared to mine.
And to your roach comment. 1 base roach is simply inferior to this build. Yes you will have roaches out faster, but you have to stick to your ramp unless you want my speedlings to wither those roach numbers down. This gives me plenty of time to build up a reasonable amount of roaches.
If the opponent does decide to move out before he has enough roaches, simply do a runby and kill off some drones/queen. If he doesnt retreat back to his base, you can simply move back once you did some damage to the opponent and attack the roaches from the rear, keeping them busy while your roaches pop up.
Once you killed off his push, you have a hatchery at your natural expansion, and he doesn't. You've set yourself up for a midgame, and he set himself up for the early game. Having lost his map controll, your opponent will die a slow macro death as you drone up your expansion whilst maintaining equal roachnumbers with your opponent.
Alright so as you place your hatchery you aren't behind in zerglings, but I am assuming that you will not have banelings if you place down your hatchery. I take it a given that I am going to micro well enough to come out on top against anyone who expands early. Do you take it a given your micro will be enough to defend with just splings for a while?
And my roach comment was I will drop a roach warren AND a hatchery. Therefor 2 base roach while teching to lair for speed roaches. And the only reason I would ever do this is if I saw the ramp blocked by roaches in 2 layers. 1 layer can be busted through for a ling surround. 2 Layers is more gas and harder to get through. I never ever ever go 1 base roach. I always go spling/bling, and if I have to tech to roaches I expand immediately after I drop my roach warren because the person that went roach first cannot move out for a while.
I only talked about roaches because you said if you were scared of banelings you would go 1 base roach.
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When the banelings come, my hatchery isnt done yet indeed.
I don't take it as a given that my micro will overcome his. But that is my task right then. He has to make something happen because he doesnt have a hatchery making. Either he attacks and then makes a hatchery, or simply transitions into mass speedling baneling off of 2 hatchery.
If my micro isnt enough and he kills around 4 drones, its not hard to just stick back and get your own banelings up after his have died. You can drone back up a bit while his forces are remaking. You'd be surprised how much you can delay speedlings attacking you with good baneling placement.
------------Conclusion about early banelings -----------
Micro will be needed either way, if you went roach first, speedling expand, 15 hatch or speedling/baneling. If you can't take the heat with a speedling expand, you probably cant take the heat with a regular speedling/baneling build.
This just allows you to have your expand making while your opponent can't kill it easily. If you lose to early pools or early banelings, work on your micro. Don't change your whole build around because you assume that you are too slow on your micro, simply get better.
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Thank you for the well-written guide. It is the first detailed explanation I've found on a speedling/speedling expand build and it is exactly what I'm working on this week.
I ingrained the habit of droning now and ZvZ went from my best match to my worst. I've been trying various speedling builds but missed the drone cut yours uses. I noticed this tidbit in my last ZvZ loss where he had 15 drones to my 31 and he overran me with speedlings. I assume it is worth the economy loss to establish map control first then do a drone pump?
The other observation I've had pertinent to ling builds is it is easy to fall to roach builds. Single roaches are no problem but anything more than about 7 roaches and the ball gets too tough. You noted that if a roach warren is scouted the response should be a roach warren and that jives with what I've seen. I've tried ling/hydra to counter mass roach; it was close but roaches are so cheap compared to hydras.
A build I was playing with was an early in-base hatch to boost production but reduce the stress of defending an early expansion. It has 12 lings and a queen at 5:30 and can either expand or boost lings with larvae pop at 6:00.
speedling in-base hatch:
+ Show Spoiler +- 9 - overlord
- 14 - gas
- 14 - pool
- 15 - hatch
- @100% pool - zergling speed
- pull drones from gas
- 14 - zergling
- 16 - overlord
- 16 - 2x zergling
- 18 - queen
- 20-26 - zerglings
- 26 - queen
Basically, I'm suffering from tons of build order losses in ZvZ. It feels like no matter what build I choose, it is wrong.
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OP: I am higher diamond than you and I beat the build your outlined many times with hatch first into roach warren. It won't always work on maps with short rush distances or maps where the expo is far from the ramp.
Slow lings and 2 queens blocking ramp buys me enough time for roach warren. If you keep pushing with your lings, I just get a spine crawler with the resource I save on zergling speed. I will have more minerals than you because I didn't mine gas so early. I don't even have to mine from my natural until I have 5+ roaches.
You said it pretty clear in your post, "when you see a roach warren, stop making lings". Which by definition makes the roach build superior for control.
People don't always get Roach warren for roach rush as you imply in your first post. I make just enough to defend my expo from early lings / banelings like everyone else uses. Of course, if you are able to do significant damage before my ramp defences are up, you will win.
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On January 04 2011 14:41 juw wrote:
OP: I am higher diamond than you and I beat your build many times with hatch first into roach warren. It won't always work on maps with short rush distances or maps where the expo is far from the ramp.
Slow lings and 2 queens blocking ramp buys me enough time for roach warren. With the resource I save on zergling speed, I get spine crawlers to render your lings useless. I don't even have to mine from my natural until I have 5+ roaches.
You said it pretty clear in your post, "when you see a roach warren, stop making lings". Which by definition makes the roach build superior for control.
People don't always get Roach warren for roach rush as you imply in your first post. I make just enough to defend my expo from early lings / banelings like you and everyone else uses. Unless you are able to snipe a queen, you won't come out ahead.
JC, how do you get crawlers in natural if you are holding at ramp (map like XNC), I wonder how lings can't just attack farside of your FE and take it out/force cancel?
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Hatch and pool finishes around the same time. Get the first crawler then.
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Well juw, with good defense, I'm sure you are able to defend this. I spend my first minerals on units to pressure you. Your job is to defend it properly, and mine is to STOP the spinecrawler from coming up.
Yes, with queens blocking I wont be able to come up your ramp and mess up your mineral line. But that isn't the focus of this build. ( although its certainly a nice bonus sometimes )
This build gets speed out sooner than a hatch first build. This gives a relationship between you defending well and me attacking well. Because I can't enter your base, you have defenses to drone up. Because you can't push out, I have created an 'invisible' wall and can drone up myself too.
On larger maps, a roach build won't be a problem since I can defend more easily because of the distance between us.
I want to give another major point. This build isn't designed to get drones up in the natural quickly, just like you won't saturate yours the moment it pops in a hatch first build. I just like the pressure it gives as opposed to a hatch first build.
Its not the speedlings that win you the game, its the transitions that you have to master in order to make this build work out well.
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On January 04 2011 14:50 juw wrote:
Hatch and pool finishes around the same time. Get the first crawler then.
If Hatch first requires a Spine Crawler, and you don't need one with Pool first FE, then you're better off doing the latter. (at least if I remember the numbers correctly)
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although this build is excellent against 1base roach and fast lair builds, its a HUGE mistake to expand without bling nest against someone who also goes gaspool. you cant put pressure on someone who went gas pool speed(nest) - thus making your expo a waste of 300minerals at 20food.
also small things to note:
-dont ever scout with the first drone. theres no valuable information before 13food, and even then theres very little.
-pull 1 drone off at a time at 92gas you'll end up with 100 and
-dont pull off gas if you're playing against gaspool openings until you're 100% sure hes pure roach
2600Z
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On January 04 2011 19:56 IVXX wrote:
although this build is excellent against 1base roach and fast lair builds, its a HUGE mistake to expand without bling nest against someone who also goes gaspool. you cant put pressure on someone who went gas pool speed(nest) - thus making your expo a waste of 300minerals at 20food.
also small things to note:
-dont ever scout with the first drone. theres no valuable information before 13food, and even then theres very little.
-pull 1 drone off at a time at 92gas you'll end up with 100 and
-dont pull off gas if you're playing against gaspool openings until you're 100% sure hes pure roach
2600Z
Thanks for the tips ^^ . I'll be sure to test not opening with a scouting drone and see how that goes as everyone is advocating against it. And I'll experiment a whole lot with gas variations in the near future.
Once again thanks everyone for bringing in input and giving their opinion. Having this as my first topic on TL certainly wasn't a mistake ( although most of the post are me replying to other people's questions,oh well, no matter  ).
Also, I'm willing to play grudgematches against people with an EU account in ZvZ and post the replays in this thread. I want to know if this build has serious holes in it or is a good opening. If anybody is up for some later ( once my regular starcraft computer is fixed, could take up to a week I reckon ), PM me and we'll set a date/time.
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EPT
