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ZvZ Speedling expand
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rp5CJ.png)
Introduction
Hello and glad to see you reading my guide. If you opened this topic you probably have trouble with this match up, or atleast you're confused by it. I'd be glad to tell you how I do my ZvZ's and share my ideas about the matchup.
Rank and other off-topic banter
+ Show Spoiler +Please note that the following is written by a 2250 Diamond Zerg. If you are higher diamond than that and you prefer to compare ranks rather than information, please share your views in this topic as well  , I'd be glad to spark up a discussion.
The build: A quick introduction.
The build that I use as the title suggests is a speedling expand. It focusses on getting early map controll with speedlings to ensure your natural expansion to go up without the fuss of defending for the first half of the match when going hatch first.
Buildorder
- Send first spawned drone to scout ( Stylistic choice, reasons in the spoiler tags. )
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I prefer to send out a scouting drone because of the ease of defending early pool builds, and the ability to hatchblock should the opponent go for hatch first.
Some people prefer to stay in the dark and try to destroy early pool builds with good drone micro. I however prefer to get a 12 pool when facing a 6-7 pool because of the ease it gives of defending versus the lings. Besides, you're ahead by 6 drones anyway. Still, this isnt a neccesairy step if you are good enough with your drone micro.
- 9 Overlord
- 14 gas
- 14 pool
- 16 overlord
- Start taking off 2 drones when you have 88 gas.
- Build queen + zergling speed as pool finishes.
- Zerglings until 22 food
- 22 Overlord
- 22 Hatchery
- Continious zerglings until 26
After that everything is based off of scouting.
The build: Further explanation and why it works.
The reason why I use this build is its versatility and its macropower. After experimenting with Hatch first builds I came to the conclusion that it isnt actually more economical versus a pool-hatch build.
Zerg versus zerg in the early game relies completely on getting map controll, and holding on to it. Going quick roaches ensures that you need to defend until you get a sufficient number of roaches to come out on top versus speedlings. Going hatch first ensures that your speed research is delayed by a good amount, still giving up map controll versus a speedling build.
Map controll = droning. If you are sure your opponent can't move out for a while, you can drone up your expansion, and a macro advantage in ZvZ almost always guarantees a victory. Unlike for example ZvP, where an unscouted DT or Voidray can completely wreck your world.
Lets say we are up against a hatch first build. As you move out and reach his expansion, his lings will pop out. Probably enough to be even with your lings. However, as your speed upgrade finishes well before his, your zerglings will reach his base in no time.
As you pressure him into making more and more lings ( or even spinecrawlers. ) you drone up. Don't overdo it. 5 – 8 drones is enough for an advantage. If you're lucky you might even snipe his hatchery before he can retaliate well enough. As he gets speed himself you should retreat and rely on your defenders advantage. This tiny drone advantage is often enough to get a significant advantage in the mid game.
Scouting information ( 26 food and beyond ).
Here is a list of responses I use when scouting certain things. They made sure I maintain my macro advantage in many a game. I send my first overlord to my opponents base and hover it between their ramp and natural expansion, this ensures that you know when he gets his expo and what leaves his base.
Hatchery first.
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When you scout a hatchery first, you build more and more speedlings. His production will be behind yours as your queen is out sooner and your natural expansion hatchery will finish not all that long after his hatchery.
You should be able to outnumber his ling numbers and thus put significant damage on his hatchery. Make sure you engage his lings outside of ramps or tiny spaces. Your speedlings will surround his slowlings much faster in the open, giving you a greater advantage in battle.
If he puts down a spine don't hesitate to try and snipe it. Keep the pressure on him until his speedupgrade finishes. This ensures him making a lot of lings, any tiny drone advantage he will try to get will be punished by losing the ling number battle and being overrun. Make the occasional drone between speedling production and fall back as his speedupgrade or spinecrawler finishes.
Drone your heart out and react to his followup. As you near 50 gas with your lonely gas drone, build a banelings nest and put 2 drones back in gas. This gives you a defenders advantage versus speedlings. If you scout a roach warren in his main build 2 spines near your natural and cancel the baneling nest, building a roach warren instead.
You wont be able to match his roach numbers, but because you have lots of speedlings, a dash of roaches and spinecrawler support, you will be able to hold most pushes easily. You can even catch retreating roaches with your speedlings to kill them off.
Spinecrawlers up in the main or near the ramp.
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This shows you a critical thing. The opponent wants to defend for a while so he can tech or build an army. You have complete mapcontroll. Don't be light on your S and D buttons here. Drone up and get a roach warren. Build a spine if you are making non-stop drones. Keep a zergling outside his base to see when he is moving out. The possibilities of his choices include a one-base roach push ( often with +1 range attack ), a 2 hatch speedling agression or a one base mutalisk play. So change appropriately.
I find getting a roach army and building one or two spines to be sufficient against most pushes. But make sure you build an evolution chamber so you can put spores around your natural and main mineral lines incase he goes for mutalisks.
Roach warren.
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If you scout a roach warren, retreat your zerglings and make one yourself. Put 2 drones back on gas and build a couple of overlords. Make 2 or 3 drones as you stock up on minerals and gas. Once your roach warren pops you should have enough resources to build around 6 or 7 roaches. Enough to hold a roach push easily.
If his push doesnt come quick, build a spinecrawler or two. This makes engaging your natural with his roaches non-cost effective unless he greatly outnumbers your roaches ( which he shouldn't, you have the macro advantage after all ).
Speedling expand ( roughly or exactly the same build as this one ).
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This one is a bit more tricky. As his speedling numbers will match yours, you have to make a banelings nest once you hit 50 gas with your drone. When you put it down put 2 drones back in gas and continiue to build up speedlings.
Engage only when it favours you. If he has a better surround don't be afraid to simply pull back, he will crush your ling forces with ease if you let him get a better surround.
Keep the pressure on him. Make sure your ling forces are near his base, forcing some more zerglings out of him. There is a great difference between equal ling forces near your opponents base, and the same forces near yours.
Make banelings in a place where you are sure he won't engage for a while. This might mean you have to retreat back to your base for a while to make sure the banelings have enough time to complete. I have put some micro-tips for baneling usage later in this guide.
After the second engagement ( army trade or just general brawls ) build a roach warren and transition into a regular midgame roach army. If he continiues to build banelings, your roaches should be able to tank them.
After this micro-intensive phase, you'll want to macro up and do general midgame stuff ( build roaches, make sure he doesnt go spire and delaying his third ect. ). You're probably equal in macro right now. So don't let your guard down. This guide won't go lenghty about the midgame or lategame, as I feel my knowledge about those are not as sufficient to write about on TL. However I will put some tips that work for me in the stylistic choices section.
Early lair + 2 gas.
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Probably mutalisks. Make an evo chamber and start making queens from both your hatcheries. Start your lair after your second queen in your main pops. Build lots of drones and transition into roaches. When you scout his spire building, place a couple of sporecrawlers around your mineral line. His muta's have to do damage and because you have so much anti air, he won't be able to.
Simply outmacro and 1a into his base with a roach/hydra force.
Micro tips and stylistic choices I use.
This is an extra section filled with general ZvZ tips.
Eggs inside your controll group.
This ensures your lings and roaches will be inside your controll group before they spawn. Giving you more time to focus on the battle.
The trick is to spend your larva in waves. For example select 6 larva and make those into zergling eggs. With the eggs still selected, press Shift + your controll group. This will add the eggs to your controll group. As the units pop, they will remain in the controll group and so you won't have any lings left behind or a bad rally point ruining your day.
Baneling spread and controll grouping.
+ Show Spoiler +When you morph banelings, always keep them on a seperate hotkey. I use 2 or 3, depending on the stage of the game. Make sure your banelings aren't inside your other controll groups. You don't want to accidently detonate them on roaches when you attack with your lings. When you are done pressing 'E' , shift-controll click the banelings in your army controll group and press Controll + current controll group to 'clean' your controll group from banelings. Then put your banelings on a different hotkey, like 2. When your banelings are on a different controll group, click each baneling individually and give it a different rally point. Fan it out so each baneling will be a good bit away from his fellow banelings. Before ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/oHKKv.png) After ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/TRUQr.png) When given a move command ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Ud4qw.png) When you move your banelings now, you will have a line of seperate banelings without all the fuss of microing them during a battle. You can just move them and make sure each baneling has a maximum amount of kills each. If your opponent tries to combat this file of banelings by sending one ling in attack move towards you, just attackmove with your lings to keep your blings protected. Your banelings are cost-effective when they hit 4 or more zerglings, or 3 or more banelings. Never attack move across the map to make sure you don't lose them.
Taking care of lings when they are attacking your destructable rocks.
+ Show Spoiler +This one is an example of how to react to the opponents zerglings when they are trying to break your rocks on say, blistering sands, assuming you have banelings and roaches. Send your banelings into the lings escape path. On blistering that's most often the brush. Then attack with your roaches from the south. If he simply moves his lings away, they will run headfirst into banelings, giving you loads of kills.
Putting all your overlords on one controll group during the first stages of the game
+ Show Spoiler +This one is more of an ease of use for me. If I have all my overlords on one controll group and I spot mutalisks, I can more easily select all my overlords and retreat them to one specific point ( like a sporecrawler ) more quickly rather than leaving them across the map for my opponent to pick off.
Also I can just press 0g to make all my overlords spread creep. If I have placed them far enough apart from eachother I can ensure a good and quick creepbed.
Spawning pool placement
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/SfMr5.png) I like to place my spawning pool slightly overlapping my gas way, but not blocking the gas. This gives you a nice choke to work with, should a speedling runby ever occur. You can also block it off with a queen on hold position. Attempted runby, foiled by queen placement. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dcJAH.png) This also prevents someone blocking your gas with an evolution chamber.
Roach/ling micro
+ Show Spoiler +If you have a roach/zergling force, you should always try to move your speedlings behind the roaches before you engage. This traps them into place and makes sure they can't retreat if they find the fight to be non-beneficial. Push, wait, this isn't winable. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/u6yB0.png) RETREAT, GAAAHH ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/CiMoO.png) In the end, noone got to the chopper ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Fe9Yp.png)
General tips and common sence
- Fungal growth onehits banelings. If the opponent has forced hydra's on you because he went mutalisk, don't forget to get an infestor out. To catch the muta's or to counter his banelings. Its never a bad idea to tech for infestor versus baneling or mutalisks.
- If the opponent is going hydra with his roaches, be sure to get burrow and burrowmovement for roaches. If you can unburrow on top of his hydraball, you can decimate it quite quickly and overrun the remaining roaches.
- Always put your roaches on an additional controll group when you have hydra's in the mix. ( Hydra+ roaches on 1, roaches on 2 for example ) Before you engage, you can easily press 2 and get the roaches infront first, then attack to shield your hydra's from banelings.
- If you attack in the midgame with your roach force and the opponent opened speedlings, ALWAYS leave 5 roaches behind on your ramp on hold position. You don't want him equaling the hurt on you because you left your door open while your roaches were attacking him.
- Keep one speedling on the opponents future third. Not only can you scout when he is taking it, but you have a good chance of killing the drone if he doesnt bring support, delaying his third by a few precious seconds.
- Don't forget transfuse in those clutch engagements. If he is focussing a roach with a small force you can easily make him waste more shots on that roach, delaying damage on the rest of your army.
Replays
Eik is my username. This section contains both wins and losses to keep things objective.
Number of replays: 10
Wins:7 Losses:3
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Conclusion
I hope this guide helps someone out. Either by giving you a solid opening in ZvZ, or by broadening your knowledge about the match up. I use it in all my ZvZ's, and often it gives me a good advantage in the midgame. I find it to be the safest macro-oriented build for ZvZ out there, and I wouldn't ever hatch first anymore.
Let the discussion commence 
( will post more pictures, including replays later ).
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What if you scout speedlings + banelings w/o expand? Or just speedlings w/o expand?
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Well, This build is basically a normal speedling/baneling build with an expand behind it.
Some people go for an inbase hatchery and then mass speedlings. Which is roughly the same, except the placement of the hatchery is different ( and in my opinion, worse ).
You should be able to match any speedling build, the only difference this build has is that the baneling nest is slightly delayed, as you're taking drones off of gas for a little bit to keep speedling production to a maximum.
A speedling expand and a regular speedling/bane build are basically reacted to the same way. Except a regular speedling/baneling build has banelings out quicker. But with good building placement and micro that shouldn't be that much of a problem.
I will post pictures of my building/queen placement soon .
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I've been doing a similar opening for a while, but in zvz shouldnt you go lair first?
I am under the impression that an important rule of zvz is to wait until your opponent expands or until you have the initiative before you expand. Also, grabbing a fast lair and then a spire/hydra den before the expansion can get rid of the timing attack window after your lings died and your expo is coming up.
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I dislike pure speedling openings in ZvZ, especially pure speedling expand. Spling/Bling play is too strong against it. Your baneling nest and banelings will be too late. If you want I will play against you going spling/bling and you can do this build. ZvZ is probably my strongest matchup right now (probably win 90% of my ZvZs) and I almost always win early game with splinging and blinging and I have not lost to a FE in quite some time.
2564D Currently
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Just a note on the Baneling micro. After watching mrbitters coaching-sessions with egMachine, I've started doing as him. Morph 2 lings at a time into banes, rally them straight into his mineral line and forget about them. They are your enemies problem now.
Works extremely good ;D
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Why do you choose 14 Gas 14 Pool over 12 Pool 12 Gas?
Your build does not appear to be mineral starved -- trading 50 minerals for 2 bonus Larvae is surely the superior choice. Furthermore, the motivation for your very early scout no longer applies -- rather than having to scout early enough to decide between 12 Pool and 14 GasPool, you only have to scout early enough to decide whether or not to Drone up to 16.
(But honestly, I would get the early Zerglings anyways and go rush; if I want 16 Drones, I'll get the rest after my first 4-6 Zerglings hatch and are on their way)
14 GasPool doesn't get the Queen early enough to outproduce a 14 Hatchery anyways.
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I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.
The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.
I've always stuck to 14 gas/14 pool simply because you're almost never behind economically from the start. Then again, I haven't played 12 pool/12 gas before. So I do not know the difference.
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I think this is at least approximately how you should open mass lings (unlike all other mass sling posts). The goal of mass lings SHOULD BE to delay your opponents hatch as long as possible while freely expanding yourself. Unlike most idiots who suggest that MASS LINGS is the key to victory, OP reconizes that lings are only a means to an end, mainly winning the macro war.
If you see enemy roach/queen blocking (which is a decent counter to early ling heavy play), get your natural up asap, don't try to break his wall, just leave enough pressure to prevent his natural easily getting up and drone hard (as well as getting your own roach warren and evo chamber asap). He WILL see this with his OL chilling at your natural, but he can't do shit until he gets roach speed or he risks a ling runby. If makes enough roaches to block and still peek out to simply force his hatch up, you have already pulled far ahead in macro, and as long as you UPGRADE your roaches and keep an eye on his numbers (overseer contaminate will be especially damning on his 1 hatch), it will be an easy gg.
I usually am the guy responding with the roach/queen block when I realize whats up, and if they try to outmacro me and go roaches themselves instead of producing enough lings to kill +1 roaches with decent micro (hint, its a big fucking number), im totally fucked. Don't know about the exact BO, but I think this is the right idea here.
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On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.
The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner.
That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food.
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On January 03 2011 09:31 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.
The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner. That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food.
You don't need more, you just need good bling micro. If your bling micro is good, your lings should never even be touched, not to mention you will have speed much more quickly then a 14 hatch build will. Only way a 14 hatch survives is superb crawler placement, queens blocking ramp, and some luck. I have faced someone who went 14 hatch on LT, blocked his ramp with queens and had 2 crawlers up and a bunch of lings, and I still beat him while on 1 base, and I always go 14 gas/14 pool.
If 12/gas/12 Pool is really that much better I'll have to try it out. But i like the timings of everything and am comfortable with 14/14 so we will see.
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I like this Chaosvuistje, it feels very strong.
Does anyone have any tips for drone micro vs 6-10 pool? I need to get better at defending with just workers until my pool finishes. Thank you in advance! :D
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On January 03 2011 10:00 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 09:31 Hurkyl wrote:On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.
The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner. That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food. You don't need more, you just need good bling micro. If your bling micro is good, your lings should never even be touched, not to mention you will have speed much more quickly then a 14 hatch build will. Only way a 14 hatch survives is superb crawler placement, queens blocking ramp, and some luck. I have faced someone who went 14 hatch on LT, blocked his ramp with queens and had 2 crawlers up and a bunch of lings, and I still beat him while on 1 base, and I always go 14 gas/14 pool. If 12/gas/12 Pool is really that much better I'll have to try it out. But i like the timings of everything and am comfortable with 14/14 so we will see.
The OP wasn't getting a quick Baneling Nest -- he was trying to outproduce Hatch first builds.
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anyone that goes 14gas/14pool bling wars will gg u due to 12 more money invested in zerglings rather than the hatch, this could be viable against a roach player on a map such as on steppes of war, delta quad, close lt/meta u get the point. 3k diamond zerg.
edit: several ppl have done builds similar to this against me (opening 14/14) [i crush it everytime] then plopping down a hatch around this time, however, my ling micro is quite sick so that could be why i smash ppl so hard.
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On January 03 2011 10:09 N037 wrote:
I like this Chaosvuistje, it feels very strong.
Does anyone have any tips for drone micro vs 6-10 pool? I need to get better at defending with just workers until my pool finishes. Thank you in advance! :D
stack them with mineral move ---> a-move, R&R, your done, can try pulling if you have final few lings surrounded
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I don't think that a 6 pool poses a threat to the point where you want to scout earlier than normal tbh, just work on not freaking out when you see it coming and you should be okay.
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i absolutely would not ever scout with my first spawned drone, there is no point in doing that please trust me. say you are playing xel naga caverns and you want to open 14g14p youd generally just scout on 12 or 13 depending on the opponent and map.
the point of this is so that your drone will arrive at there base after youve laid your gas down (because before that with this build order there really is no logical reason for deviating from your true build before the 14 food mark) so you can see if he went early pool or hatch first in which case you either cut a drone and lay a 13pool, continue with your build as normal and make more lings to pressure your opponent, or just cut your pool and lay down a hatch immediately.
also, pulling a drone that early will hurt your economy MUCH more than you think, the more drones you have the less it matters but when you're taking one of your earliest drones and sacrificing a huge amount of economy to simply delay a hatchery by 5-10 seconds or so when you could just one base a little longer and pump more lings to accommodate for that instead is pretty irrational to do (also the mirror hatch option as well).
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On January 03 2011 10:42 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 10:00 MorsCerta wrote:On January 03 2011 09:31 Hurkyl wrote:On January 03 2011 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'll be honest with you, I havent done 12 pool 12 gas before. I do not know the numbers of that build.
The productionrate of a queen beats that of a regular 14 hatch once spawn larvae kicks in. And with the additional hatchery larva come quicker than that of a hatch first build, due to the queen being out sooner. That's the idea, but a late pool is too late for things to actually work out that way. Once the 14 Hatchery's first Zerglings hatch, I don't think there is ever a point in time where your build has more -- even if you move the Hatchery up to 18 food. You don't need more, you just need good bling micro. If your bling micro is good, your lings should never even be touched, not to mention you will have speed much more quickly then a 14 hatch build will. Only way a 14 hatch survives is superb crawler placement, queens blocking ramp, and some luck. I have faced someone who went 14 hatch on LT, blocked his ramp with queens and had 2 crawlers up and a bunch of lings, and I still beat him while on 1 base, and I always go 14 gas/14 pool. If 12/gas/12 Pool is really that much better I'll have to try it out. But i like the timings of everything and am comfortable with 14/14 so we will see. The OP wasn't getting a quick Baneling Nest -- he was trying to outproduce Hatch first builds.
Thanks? I know. My posts are concerning sling/bling vs FE's. I consider a speedling expand a FE in ZvZ. And someone brought up 12pool vs 14 and 14 hatch so I was responding to them.
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This is hugely popular build nowadays due to evolution. Roaches and/or queens tend to counter banes -> people don't do banebuilds. Spling fe is probably the strongest build if you don't expect banes, but when they come, you lose. I don't see anyone defending splingbling with this. So, it's somewhat risky considering opponent can always just transit to blings if he's got spling bo, and be likely to win.
However most common strats tend to have either roachwarren in it, or hat first. Spling bo works great against both, sometimes it even kills them if they don't expect it (they see you plant hat and expect droning), and when it doesn't it still forces them to make units to defend. Mostly gives map dominance for a while, if opponent decides to do something like roach fe.
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Just in the interest of adding more information into the thread, what if they go for banelings? Im not saying its a perfect counter to the build, Im just curious in what you should do if you scout a baneling nest, while using this build.
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Faster banelings would be very scary to face simply because they can have as many lings as you while still morphing banelings because you spent 300 on the early hatchery. In addition, their nest will be up faster. How do you stop 1 base baneling/sling? Because it seems like most zerg mirrors now are either a fast expand or a zergling baneling opening, and at least fast expand can sometimes defend with spine crawlers and the like depending on the map.
2900 Diamond
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On January 03 2011 12:30 Zergtastic wrote:
Just in the interest of adding more information into the thread, what if they go for banelings? Im not saying its a perfect counter to the build, Im just curious in what you should do if you scout a baneling nest, while using this build.
imho thats fine, expo and cut ling production and go roach, hold them from making their natural as long as possible with your early lings, until baneling speed you shouldnt have any problem with banes offcreep
I don't think OPs goal is to win with slings, just get early macro advantage by forcing late natural/inbase hatch, you can transition to roaches (as you should) as soon as you spot an enemy roach warren or baneling nest, just keep your slings harassing their natural as long as possible to delay them getting it up
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There is indeed a timing in which an early banelings nest will get you in trouble. But when I see such a thing with my early scouting drone ( not giving up on this one, might have a mineral disadvantage, but I value the information above all else ), I can simply plug some holes with an evo chamber.
My general way of going around this though is when I scout or suspect an early banelingsnest, I simply leave 2 drones in gas and delay my 3rd and 4th set of lings slightly. This will get the nest out quicker than usual in this build, but still after speed. This should give you ample time to defend with banelings of your own.
Should the opponent go for something like baneling nest with the first 50 gas he collects, that is the major obstacle in this build. However, his build relies SOLELY on his banelings doing tremendous amounts of damage to your economy. He isnt even with you unless he does.
That is why simply defending this first burst of banelings with minimal drone losses will often net you the win. When he moves in I put my queen in the little choke I made with my spawning pool ( as I explained under micro tips ) but slightly back, this will trick the banelings into moving into the tiny choke. If the opponent is smart, he will go around. All the while his banelings are being pummeled by the queen. Because he has to travel so far, you can easily run your drones away and circle your hatchery to let the queen kill the banelings off.
Do note that when only one baneling is left it does not matter that much if it hits healthy drones. One baneling doesn't kill drones, it simply wounds them into the red.
But yes, should his banelings kill off a majority of your drones, its only fair for him to win. After all, he invested everything in that first attack. ZvZ early is micro-intensive as hell, if you can't beat him with good micro, get better micro . That has always been my philosophy behind the match up.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Hey.
Nice guide. I hope you keep on improving it.
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On January 03 2011 19:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:There is indeed a timing in which an early banelings nest will get you in trouble. But when I see such a thing with my early scouting drone ( not giving up on this one, might have a mineral disadvantage, but I value the information above all else ), I can simply plug some holes with an evo chamber. My general way of going around this though is when I scout or suspect an early banelingsnest, I simply leave 2 drones in gas and delay my 3rd and 4th set of lings slightly. This will get the nest out quicker than usual in this build, but still after speed. This should give you ample time to defend with banelings of your own. Should the opponent go for something like baneling nest with the first 50 gas he collects, that is the major obstacle in this build. However, his build relies SOLELY on his banelings doing tremendous amounts of damage to your economy. He isnt even with you unless he does. That is why simply defending this first burst of banelings with minimal drone losses will often net you the win. When he moves in I put my queen in the little choke I made with my spawning pool ( as I explained under micro tips ) but slightly back, this will trick the banelings into moving into the tiny choke. If the opponent is smart, he will go around. All the while his banelings are being pummeled by the queen. Because he has to travel so far, you can easily run your drones away and circle your hatchery to let the queen kill the banelings off. Do note that when only one baneling is left it does not matter that much if it hits healthy drones. One baneling doesn't kill drones, it simply wounds them into the red. But yes, should his banelings kill off a majority of your drones, its only fair for him to win. After all, he invested everything in that first attack. ZvZ early is micro-intensive as hell, if you can't beat him with good micro, get better micro . That has always been my philosophy behind the match up.
What about when the person your facing kills your scouting drone with his first set of lings and then drops the baneling nest? This is what I do every game. I keep pumping lings and put pressure on my opponent till my bling nest is done and then fall back when it finishes, morph in some blings and move in.
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I dont leave my scouting drone at your base to die. It serves no purpose other than to scout the first building and the timing of it.
If I scout a pool first, without a gas. He probably wants to go 1base roach or get banelings up right as the pool finishes.
If I scout a gas before pool, great, hes getting speed first or he is delaying his speed research to get banelings out quicker, meaning I can pressure him until his bling nest pops up.
The point being is that you HAVE to do damage with that build, and I simply have to defend. Defending in ZvZ is a whole lot more easier than attacking well.
I dont find an early bling nest to be that hazardous. If I would be I'd go 1base roach everygame.
::Edit::
My Starcraft computer has for unknown reasons stopped working. My screen froze in a thousand different colours, and when I rebooted it couldnt get signal via the DVI channel. So I'm not able to provide sufficient ammounts of replays YET. Don't worry though, I'm collecting good amounts of ZvZ replays from myself now, I should be having a lot on this thread in a day or three.
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On January 03 2011 23:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I dont leave my scouting drone at your base to die. It serves no purpose other than to scout the first building and the timing of it.
If I scout a pool first, without a gas. He probably wants to go 1base roach or get banelings up right as the pool finishes.
If I scout a gas before pool, great, hes getting speed first or he is delaying his speed research to get banelings out quicker, meaning I can pressure him until his bling nest pops up.
The point being is that you HAVE to do damage with that build, and I simply have to defend. Defending in ZvZ is a whole lot more easier than attacking well.
I dont find an early bling nest to be that hazardous. If I would be I'd go 1base roach everygame.
::Edit::
My Starcraft computer has for unknown reasons stopped working. My screen froze in a thousand different colours, and when I rebooted it couldnt get signal via the DVI channel. So I'm not able to provide sufficient ammounts of replays YET. Don't worry though, I'm collecting good amounts of ZvZ replays from myself now, I should be having a lot on this thread in a day or three.
Normal bling builds go speed -> bling nest. How will you pressure until bling nest pops if you are using the same build or your gas and pool are later? You will either be even or behind in ling count.
I find it much easier to attack than defend in ZvZ, and I would much rather have the battle happening far away from my base. If you go 1 base roach vs spling/bling I would simply drop a roach warren and expand. Then you are now behind until you reach critical mass of roaches, which won't be before I have a good amount of roaches and splings myself. Roach/Spling > Pure Roach.
Not to mention if you open speedlings there is a window where your roaches aren't out yet but you are probably saving larvae for them, I have no trouble finding this window as I am usually in my opponents base or natural.
Just to clarify, I am not saying Speedling expand isn't a viable build, I am just saying against someone who plays like myself, super aggressive spling/bling, you will have issues unless your micro is spot on.
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Of course you're not claiming this build to not be viable. You're simply noting timings and ways this build may be unstable. And I appreciate that. In turn, I do not claim this build to be the next super build in ZvZ. Just one of the options available.
However, with the timings of my build, I am not behind in zergling numbers compared to a 14 gas 14 pool baneling build. When you place the hatchery down, you have aproximately 400 resources, no spawn larva out yet, and no larva waiting for resources. As zerglings are so cheap, you won't delay your ling numbers by any significant margin.
This build in itself is no more economical than a regular 14 gas 14 pool build. It gets the hatchery up at the natural by providing early map controll, a way to delay the opponents hatchery.
In a regular 14gas/14 pool speedling/baneling brawl, good micro will make you victorious. You still have to micro well in order to come out on top, just like you have to micro well to make up for the fact that your hatchery is delayed when compared to mine.
And to your roach comment. 1 base roach is simply inferior to this build. Yes you will have roaches out faster, but you have to stick to your ramp unless you want my speedlings to wither those roach numbers down. This gives me plenty of time to build up a reasonable amount of roaches.
If the opponent does decide to move out before he has enough roaches, simply do a runby and kill off some drones/queen. If he doesnt retreat back to his base, you can simply move back once you did some damage to the opponent and attack the roaches from the rear, keeping them busy while your roaches pop up.
Once you killed off his push, you have a hatchery at your natural expansion, and he doesn't. You've set yourself up for a midgame, and he set himself up for the early game. Having lost his map controll, your opponent will die a slow macro death as you drone up your expansion whilst maintaining equal roachnumbers with your opponent.
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I love you for this guide. I've got the same question as the poster above, because I love +1 spling expand too. I find them especially great against a 1 base roach or muta build.
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On January 04 2011 00:10 stickymayhem wrote:
Thanks this is my worst matchup and i'll definitely try this.
However I am a huge fan of +1 lings and find it is extremely effective. Is there a way to incorporate that into this build?
Hmmm. Interesting question. But I wouldn't suggest doing +1 lings.
The interresting thing about ZvZ is the interraction between roaches, zerglings and banelings.
In a sence, roaches are the best tier one unit. Least larva heavy, biggest hp and largest burst damage.
The reason I go speedling first is that you give up map controll for a slight amount of time if you go for roaches. This gives the oppenent time to get a hatchery up. You transition into roaches because once a roach ball gets too big, lings wont damage it enough. Infact, if the roaches are +1, they will completely decimate your ling forces.
Because banelings are so strong against zerglings, and because once roaches get their upgrades they start to lose their effectiveness, I wouldn't advocate getting +1 melee early in ZvZ using this build.
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On January 03 2011 23:55 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Of course you're not claiming this build to not be viable. You're simply noting timings and ways this build may be unstable. And I appreciate that. In turn, I do not claim this build to be the next super build in ZvZ. Just one of the options available.
However, with the timings of my build, I am not behind in zergling numbers compared to a 14 gas 14 pool baneling build. When you place the hatchery down, you have aproximately 400 resources, no spawn larva out yet, and no larva waiting for resources. As zerglings are so cheap, you won't delay your ling numbers by any significant margin.
This build in itself is no more economical than a regular 14 gas 14 pool build. It gets the hatchery up at the natural by providing early map controll, a way to delay the opponents hatchery.
In a regular 14gas/14 pool speedling/baneling brawl, good micro will make you victorious. You still have to micro well in order to come out on top, just like you have to micro well to make up for the fact that your hatchery is delayed when compared to mine.
And to your roach comment. 1 base roach is simply inferior to this build. Yes you will have roaches out faster, but you have to stick to your ramp unless you want my speedlings to wither those roach numbers down. This gives me plenty of time to build up a reasonable amount of roaches.
If the opponent does decide to move out before he has enough roaches, simply do a runby and kill off some drones/queen. If he doesnt retreat back to his base, you can simply move back once you did some damage to the opponent and attack the roaches from the rear, keeping them busy while your roaches pop up.
Once you killed off his push, you have a hatchery at your natural expansion, and he doesn't. You've set yourself up for a midgame, and he set himself up for the early game. Having lost his map controll, your opponent will die a slow macro death as you drone up your expansion whilst maintaining equal roachnumbers with your opponent.
Alright so as you place your hatchery you aren't behind in zerglings, but I am assuming that you will not have banelings if you place down your hatchery. I take it a given that I am going to micro well enough to come out on top against anyone who expands early. Do you take it a given your micro will be enough to defend with just splings for a while?
And my roach comment was I will drop a roach warren AND a hatchery. Therefor 2 base roach while teching to lair for speed roaches. And the only reason I would ever do this is if I saw the ramp blocked by roaches in 2 layers. 1 layer can be busted through for a ling surround. 2 Layers is more gas and harder to get through. I never ever ever go 1 base roach. I always go spling/bling, and if I have to tech to roaches I expand immediately after I drop my roach warren because the person that went roach first cannot move out for a while.
I only talked about roaches because you said if you were scared of banelings you would go 1 base roach.
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When the banelings come, my hatchery isnt done yet indeed.
I don't take it as a given that my micro will overcome his. But that is my task right then. He has to make something happen because he doesnt have a hatchery making. Either he attacks and then makes a hatchery, or simply transitions into mass speedling baneling off of 2 hatchery.
If my micro isnt enough and he kills around 4 drones, its not hard to just stick back and get your own banelings up after his have died. You can drone back up a bit while his forces are remaking. You'd be surprised how much you can delay speedlings attacking you with good baneling placement.
------------Conclusion about early banelings -----------
Micro will be needed either way, if you went roach first, speedling expand, 15 hatch or speedling/baneling. If you can't take the heat with a speedling expand, you probably cant take the heat with a regular speedling/baneling build.
This just allows you to have your expand making while your opponent can't kill it easily. If you lose to early pools or early banelings, work on your micro. Don't change your whole build around because you assume that you are too slow on your micro, simply get better.
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Thank you for the well-written guide. It is the first detailed explanation I've found on a speedling/speedling expand build and it is exactly what I'm working on this week.
I ingrained the habit of droning now and ZvZ went from my best match to my worst. I've been trying various speedling builds but missed the drone cut yours uses. I noticed this tidbit in my last ZvZ loss where he had 15 drones to my 31 and he overran me with speedlings. I assume it is worth the economy loss to establish map control first then do a drone pump?
The other observation I've had pertinent to ling builds is it is easy to fall to roach builds. Single roaches are no problem but anything more than about 7 roaches and the ball gets too tough. You noted that if a roach warren is scouted the response should be a roach warren and that jives with what I've seen. I've tried ling/hydra to counter mass roach; it was close but roaches are so cheap compared to hydras.
A build I was playing with was an early in-base hatch to boost production but reduce the stress of defending an early expansion. It has 12 lings and a queen at 5:30 and can either expand or boost lings with larvae pop at 6:00.
speedling in-base hatch:
+ Show Spoiler +- 9 - overlord
- 14 - gas
- 14 - pool
- 15 - hatch
- @100% pool - zergling speed
- pull drones from gas
- 14 - zergling
- 16 - overlord
- 16 - 2x zergling
- 18 - queen
- 20-26 - zerglings
- 26 - queen
Basically, I'm suffering from tons of build order losses in ZvZ. It feels like no matter what build I choose, it is wrong.
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OP: I am higher diamond than you and I beat the build your outlined many times with hatch first into roach warren. It won't always work on maps with short rush distances or maps where the expo is far from the ramp.
Slow lings and 2 queens blocking ramp buys me enough time for roach warren. If you keep pushing with your lings, I just get a spine crawler with the resource I save on zergling speed. I will have more minerals than you because I didn't mine gas so early. I don't even have to mine from my natural until I have 5+ roaches.
You said it pretty clear in your post, "when you see a roach warren, stop making lings". Which by definition makes the roach build superior for control.
People don't always get Roach warren for roach rush as you imply in your first post. I make just enough to defend my expo from early lings / banelings like everyone else uses. Of course, if you are able to do significant damage before my ramp defences are up, you will win.
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On January 04 2011 14:41 juw wrote:
OP: I am higher diamond than you and I beat your build many times with hatch first into roach warren. It won't always work on maps with short rush distances or maps where the expo is far from the ramp.
Slow lings and 2 queens blocking ramp buys me enough time for roach warren. With the resource I save on zergling speed, I get spine crawlers to render your lings useless. I don't even have to mine from my natural until I have 5+ roaches.
You said it pretty clear in your post, "when you see a roach warren, stop making lings". Which by definition makes the roach build superior for control.
People don't always get Roach warren for roach rush as you imply in your first post. I make just enough to defend my expo from early lings / banelings like you and everyone else uses. Unless you are able to snipe a queen, you won't come out ahead.
JC, how do you get crawlers in natural if you are holding at ramp (map like XNC), I wonder how lings can't just attack farside of your FE and take it out/force cancel?
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Hatch and pool finishes around the same time. Get the first crawler then.
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Well juw, with good defense, I'm sure you are able to defend this. I spend my first minerals on units to pressure you. Your job is to defend it properly, and mine is to STOP the spinecrawler from coming up.
Yes, with queens blocking I wont be able to come up your ramp and mess up your mineral line. But that isn't the focus of this build. ( although its certainly a nice bonus sometimes )
This build gets speed out sooner than a hatch first build. This gives a relationship between you defending well and me attacking well. Because I can't enter your base, you have defenses to drone up. Because you can't push out, I have created an 'invisible' wall and can drone up myself too.
On larger maps, a roach build won't be a problem since I can defend more easily because of the distance between us.
I want to give another major point. This build isn't designed to get drones up in the natural quickly, just like you won't saturate yours the moment it pops in a hatch first build. I just like the pressure it gives as opposed to a hatch first build.
Its not the speedlings that win you the game, its the transitions that you have to master in order to make this build work out well.
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On January 04 2011 14:50 juw wrote:
Hatch and pool finishes around the same time. Get the first crawler then.
If Hatch first requires a Spine Crawler, and you don't need one with Pool first FE, then you're better off doing the latter. (at least if I remember the numbers correctly)
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although this build is excellent against 1base roach and fast lair builds, its a HUGE mistake to expand without bling nest against someone who also goes gaspool. you cant put pressure on someone who went gas pool speed(nest) - thus making your expo a waste of 300minerals at 20food.
also small things to note:
-dont ever scout with the first drone. theres no valuable information before 13food, and even then theres very little.
-pull 1 drone off at a time at 92gas you'll end up with 100 and
-dont pull off gas if you're playing against gaspool openings until you're 100% sure hes pure roach
2600Z
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On January 04 2011 19:56 IVXX wrote:
although this build is excellent against 1base roach and fast lair builds, its a HUGE mistake to expand without bling nest against someone who also goes gaspool. you cant put pressure on someone who went gas pool speed(nest) - thus making your expo a waste of 300minerals at 20food.
also small things to note:
-dont ever scout with the first drone. theres no valuable information before 13food, and even then theres very little.
-pull 1 drone off at a time at 92gas you'll end up with 100 and
-dont pull off gas if you're playing against gaspool openings until you're 100% sure hes pure roach
2600Z
Thanks for the tips ^^ . I'll be sure to test not opening with a scouting drone and see how that goes as everyone is advocating against it. And I'll experiment a whole lot with gas variations in the near future.
Once again thanks everyone for bringing in input and giving their opinion. Having this as my first topic on TL certainly wasn't a mistake ( although most of the post are me replying to other people's questions,oh well, no matter  ).
Also, I'm willing to play grudgematches against people with an EU account in ZvZ and post the replays in this thread. I want to know if this build has serious holes in it or is a good opening. If anybody is up for some later ( once my regular starcraft computer is fixed, could take up to a week I reckon ), PM me and we'll set a date/time.
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Updated the first post with replays for all to see. Computer is working again so I'm accepting all invitations to ZvZ's on EU .
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I've fought early speedlings and have beaten it about 3/4ths the time. what do you believe is the best response to a spanishiwa-style FE? i use a closely similar build, and I wall with 2 queens, and i have 2 spines up before lings hit usually. because Ihatch first, i have fully saturated main and i can afford those spines and extra queens (which are also good vs void/muta harass). how would you respond to my build?
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This guide has been posted in early 2011, from that moment on I haven't stopped improving  . Plus the maps back then were a lot more different ( Lost temple, Scrap station .. ) .
Here's a more recent guide on ZvZ that I made : http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvz-alpha-omega
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EPT
