|
On December 11 2012 19:50 Mia wrote:
i dont understand the point of this build, you would have much higher winrate tvz with standard macro play than doing silly allins. Eventually ppl will start to defend againts this build and you will hit a wall, you will need to learn to play macro, so why delay it? just learn to play macro now.
I'm going to answer this as 'Why should you learn aggressive builds when macro games will give you a higher winrate?', due to zergs powerful lategame army. As that seems to be the general question you are asking.
The issue is, that if you do not know any aggressive builds, your opponents don't need to worry about it.
Think about why you get the roach warren when you do after a standard 3 hatch before gas? It is gotten at that time to defend against 7 gate timings. What if your opponent doesn't know the 7 gate timings, what if you know they only know sentry/immortal? Well then you can delay the roach warren as sentry/immortal hits much later.
If you don't know how to early pool (9, 10, 11 w/e) then toss can just go nexus first every game, terran can just go low ground CC first every game etc. The possibility of early aggression limits the opponents capabilities to be greedy, knowing how to perform those early aggression builds allows you to use them and punish greedy opponents. If you don't know them, you make slight mistakes... maybe you were short one drone because you didn't know you could make 2 drones then an ovi after the pool and still make 6 initial lings, maybe you didn't have enough larva because you made too many drones, maybe your lings were a little late as you were supply capped and had to re-actively extractor trick rather than planning for it.
If you are new, yes go learn the 'standard' builds and timings and learn how to defend cheese with them etc, but after you start to get them down then you need to also learn aggressive builds and eco-cheese or whatever you want to call it.
|
On December 11 2012 19:27 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 15:57 theMutt wrote:
It won't change whether or not the build is viable, but ... If you aren't willing to listen to advice on your build, why come here and post in the first place? Edit: I may have misread your post as it can be read either way, i.e. "the build won't change whether or not you guys find the build viable" and "the replay I post won't change whether or not the build is viable".
Sorry for the confusing word choice, it made more sense in my head. What I meant was that I am willing to concede the point that at much higher level play the effectiveness of this build may taper off, but I cannot say until I am there. And I agree that, when that happens, you hit a wall that forces you to change your strategy pool. It is no different than laddering through lower ranks, what works in plat does not work in low diamond etc etc.
I am still convinced, from a good amount of play, that this build is powerful even after a failed push or ineffective trade however. The replay I provided http://drop.sc/283552/d shows that even with my sub-par play and several bad engages and/or trades, the early upgrades were necessary to a long-game win. In fact, in this particular match, the Terran player had started ups before my own. And my +1+1 finished during (or unfortunately, right after) an initial rine/hellion pressure. I point out that my play was not good, but his wasn't flawless either and I think this was a good example of how effective this is at a lower (high diamond, low/mid master) level play.
|
On December 10 2012 08:42 Crypdos wrote:
This hits way too late to work against standard play. Standard play will have an infinite amount of hellions out by the time you arrive (~10min). Banelingbusts only work if you hit way earlier, of terran goes for a greedy bio build or failed 2rax
This.
This is very all-in, but a very poor all-in. 60+ supply as Zerg means Hellions are out already and even though you have many Zerglings.
A good variation I use is something that hits sooner, before Hellions come out and before Tanks have seige. This only works with Terran FE's, mainly. 2 Rax screwes up the build as well as you cant make drones past 20 supply.
15-Hatchery
16-Pool
16- Extractor, 3 drones on gas, research speed at 100 gas
17-Ovie
2 Queens as soon as pool pops. Make sure to rally 4 or 5 drones when is done.
22- 2 zerglings, THATS IT.
24- Baneling Nest, pull 1 drone off gas
From here everything becomes standard until the point of 27 supply.
27- 2 Ovie's
27- And that's it for drones. You should have injected once since Queens have popped. All following injections will be spent on Zerglings
Attack at around 50 supply as you will have about 25 zerglings. Make 5 banes to bust.
The nice part about this build isnt so much what Zerg has, but what Terran doesn't have. If done correctly, impossible for Hellions to be out. Impossible for tanks to have seige. You'll be facing pure bio. It's not the quanity, but the tming, even thought you'll respectively have a lot of units for that time in game!!!
I'll get a replay up to show you cant have Hellions or Tanks at point of attack, 95% of time.
|
On December 13 2012 08:31 President Dead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 08:42 Crypdos wrote:
This hits way too late to work against standard play. Standard play will have an infinite amount of hellions out by the time you arrive (~10min). Banelingbusts only work if you hit way earlier, of terran goes for a greedy bio build or failed 2rax This. This is very all-in, but a very poor all-in. 60+ supply as Zerg means Hellions are out already and even though you have many Zerglings. A good variation I use is something that hits sooner, before Hellions come out and before Tanks have seige. This only works with Terran FE's, mainly. 2 Rax screwes up the build as well as you cant make drones past 20 supply. 15-Hatchery 16-Pool 16- Extractor, 3 drones on gas, research speed at 100 gas 17-Ovie 2 Queens as soon as pool pops. Make sure to rally 4 or 5 drones when is done. 22- 2 zerglings, THATS IT. 24- Baneling Nest, pull 1 drone off gas From here everything becomes standard until the point of 27 supply. 27- 2 Ovie's 27- And that's it for drones. You should have injected once since Queens have popped. All following injections will be spent on Zerglings Attack at around 50 supply as you will have about 25 zerglings. Make 5 banes to bust. The nice part about this build isnt so much what Zerg has, but what Terran doesn't have. If done correctly, impossible for Hellions to be out. Impossible for tanks to have seige. You'll be facing pure bio. It's not the quanity, but the tming, even thought you'll respectively have a lot of units for that time in game!!! I'll get a replay up to show you cant have Hellions or Tanks at point of attack, 95% of time.
Not sure of your level, but there're two points I disagree with in this build (I posted a similar build on the first page).
First of all, T can have hellions out. Typically it's 4 when this hits. Still at my level anyway, it's not usually enough (oftentimes because I catch 2 of the hellions out on the map).
Second, I disagree with pulling one drone off of gas. In my experience you need 3 on gas to have enough. It's possible that the build I posted hits slightly earlier, in which case I need the additional gas to morph enough banes, but 3 on gas is important in case you need additional banes. Also 6 is safer than 5 in case one dies for the initial bust.
Also, this can be countered by pure bio builds (FE into mass marine, basically). This means they will have a thick rax wall, and with proper micro/splitting, there's not a lot you can do. Still I think it's a very powerful build in the current meta.
|
Hey mutt, I'm a GM zerg who uses my own build that's very similar to this build and win with a 60% win ratio vs terran. Beat AcerMMA with it a couple weeks ago, I was his first North American player loss :D
I'll be making a guide on my ZvT build ( that's similar to this) and my ZvP opening that beat SK_MC after this finals week!
Don't listen to these haters. I understand you <3
|
On December 13 2012 09:12 FXOSirRobin wrote:
Hey mutt, I'm a GM zerg who uses my own build that's very similar to this build and win with a 60% win ratio vs terran. Beat AcerMMA with it a couple weeks ago, I was his first North American player loss :D
I'll be making a guide on my ZvT build ( that's similar to this) and my ZvP opening that beat SK_MC after this finals week!
Don't listen to these haters. I understand you <3
yup totaly understand, this type of build 50% easyer for terran to handle than late game zvt, even since even pro zergs at tournaments have 60% winrate, and have 80% zvt winrate on ladder. And i totally agree zergs should do inferior builds and give us terrans a chance.
All sarcasm off. every day i see from tvz streams of pro terrans, zergs try and fail bane bust while terran with basic wall of holds it off pretty easily and wins the game. Also i remember when dimaga used to do these big ass baneling bust even over raxes, why do you think he stopped its prolly not because he was having great winrate.
|
On December 13 2012 09:12 FXOSirRobin wrote:
Hey mutt, I'm a GM zerg who uses my own build that's very similar to this build and win with a 60% win ratio vs terran. Beat AcerMMA with it a couple weeks ago, I was his first North American player loss :D
I'll be making a guide on my ZvT build ( that's similar to this) and my ZvP opening that beat SK_MC after this finals week!
Don't listen to these haters. I understand you <3
Without going into your entire build, what significant differences are there?
I'm also trying to make a few small tweaks to get it to work with Toss as well. Definitely not as effective without drop tech becuase FF.
|
This is just a bad build. The Roach/Ling/Bane "Big Bust" hits at 8:30 earliest on 2 base saturation and oppurtunity for transition. Yet you're going strictly banelings to hit at 9mins? No tech whatsoever?
Doesn't make sense.
|
On December 14 2012 03:48 NarAliya wrote:
This is just a bad build. The Roach/Ling/Bane "Big Bust" hits at 8:30 earliest on 2 base saturation and oppurtunity for transition. Yet you're going strictly banelings to hit at 9mins? No tech whatsoever?
Doesn't make sense.
Tech is available but not necessary. You could just as easily skip an evo and an upgrade, just go for warren and carapace for about the same cost.
And again, usually infestor is being upped during your first push. If we're honest though, doing a bust like this tech is usually not necessary edit: tech is not crucial in the first push/bust, teching behind it is absolutely necessary . Gas towards roaches is less for banes and/or infestor. And it is very rare that I do so little damage that Terran pushes out right after the attack.
Worst case scenario, bust doesn't do much damage but I still have map control and take the opportunity to quickly get a third fully saturated and set up for late game. Watching replays shows how this situation pans out.
|
Terrible all in with a poor build. As others have suggested, skipping upgrades, putting macro as third, skipping third queen and mining gas earlier would lead to a much more successful bane all in.
|
What if I told you, this is not an all in build?
Then, short of scrapping it all together, what tweaks would you make. Guess what ladies, "There are better builds out there" will not contribute to innovative game play.
Don't think the macro hatch is a good idea? Okay, lets make a 3rd. What does this do? Open you to early pressure and force defense. But we could still apply the early ling bane timing. Now we have a "standard" build leading to some early pressure. Is it an effective build now?
The reason I have started doing a macro hatch and the reason it works so well in this build is it virtually eliminates that possibility of early pressure guaranteeing that your 3rd hatchery will not get sniped and drones will not be lost to hellions or an early banshee. It has worked well for me but you could just as easily put that third at a separate expansion depending upon the map. Given the build though you couldn't safely drone it up. Will the macro work in GM? Maybe not, it could put you too far behind if you don't do enough damage. But unless the terran has committed to bio by placing 3 rax at door to his natural to block the bust, you WILL do damage. Usually enough to put you ahead.
|
On December 10 2012 08:33 theMutt wrote:The is my first post here, so please allow me to start off by saying I may not be following the guidelines perfectly. I know the bane bust has been done before, but here is a build that I have been using against Terran with a great deal of success. The Build:The basic structure goes like this: 9 - Overlord 15 - Hatchery (@ Natural) 15 - Pool 17 - Overlord ~20 - 2 Queens (as soon as pool pops, one at each hatch) 26 - Overlord 28 - Hatchery (macro, usually inside main) 28 - Queen 42 - 3 Gas 44 - 2 Evo Chambers +1 carapace @ 150 gas +1 attack @ 100 gas +ling speed @ 100 gas +bane nest @ 50 gas Lair @ 100 gas 60 - spam lings, lings, more lings ~9 minutes - Rally to terran, make a bunch of banes and walk in. Typically GG right there, and that's ok. In action:I've been using this build to get to masters and find it extremely effective vs Terran. Of course, most will simply blow it off as another cheesy All-In bust but I think the beauty of it is that it is a very fluid in versatile strat. I do not care if mass blue flame is coming, the initial bust usually does enough damage to offset my cost. The followupEven if the game doesn't end right here, it accomplished several things. First off, I usually gain map control and Terran will not be strong enough to move out for some time. My 3rd goes up somewhere in this mix. Also, my lair has popped and more than likely infestor energy and +2+2 is well on the way to completion if I paid attention. I suppose the attack could be made more powerful if you skip lair and 3rd base, but this gives away your advantage should you not manage to get a GG after bust. The point I really hope to make is that this is not meant to be an all-in bust, because even if you fail and terran pushes out after your first bust attempt you should have infestors on way and army available in time to defend. Replays: http://drop.sc/283137/dhttp://drop.sc/283138/dhttp://drop.sc/283140/dPlease discuss, I'm wondering if this will at some skill level become less effective.
Mine goes 9 overlord
Drone up to 15 - Hatch
16 pool
18 - Q
18 - Q at nat
2 lings to scout
power drones up to around 28
drop evo chamber - get speed
@100 get speed
38 d @50 get bane nest
drone up to 44
and power lings
Macro hatch , take 1 drone off eachgas
get close to his base, make 10 - 15 banes and rally lings .
@100 - Lair (if you need more banes to gg do it)
Unless he has tanks with seige, which he shouldnt if he opens 1 rax expo or cc first.
Power lings till he says GG or lifts buildings, by then you should have lair up
GG if you break him and he doesnt catch ur 50 lings running at his base.
|
On December 14 2012 03:59 theMutt wrote:Tech is available but not necessary. You could just as easily skip an evo and an upgrade, just go for warren and carapace for about the same cost.
Says who? Do you really think you are going to stop a standard Hellion/Banshee or Greedy 3 OC with 9minute Banelings? At that point without tech, it would HAVE to be do or die (I don't like using the word allin).
On December 14 2012 03:59 theMutt wrote:And again, usually infestor is being upped during your first push. If we're honest though, doing a bust like this tech is usually not necessary edit: tech is not crucial in the first push/bust, teching behind it is absolutely necessary . Gas towards roaches is less for banes and/or infestor. And it is very rare that I do so little damage that Terran pushes out right after the attack.
Sorry but this just sounds awful. How do you start upping Infestors when you've devoted so much resources into Ling/Banelings? You'd need about 4 gases, so you won't have full mineral saturation. And if you did have full mineral saturation to justify 4 gases, then you might as well take a 3rd and just play passively like every other Zerg. You can't hit at 9minutes and do enough damage to then sit back and make Infestors. I won't go into the maths/economics of it but it just doesn't make sense to me.
On December 14 2012 03:59 theMutt wrote:Worst case scenario, bust doesn't do much damage but I still have map control and take the opportunity to quickly get a third fully saturated and set up for late game. Watching replays shows how this situation pans out.
I'm strictly comparing your build to the "Big Bust", mainly because that is my favourite build and I'm good at it.
I always go 14pool/16 hatch to get those early 2-4 lings out. Either way, I have 2 full gases and full mineral saturation. I have about 10 Roach and around 10 Banelings morphing at 7:30 outside of their base. Attack hits with an arbitrary number of lings anywhere between 8:00 and 8:30. Follow up with 2 Injects worth of lings. This is POWERFUL and will cripple or setback your enemy with good execution - even if you don't outright kill them. Even after the follow up, you have enough resources to tech, get a 3rd base AND start an upgrade.
So I wonder how you have 'success' with your build when it hits so late, without a single evo and no Roaches for tanking. Your opponents must not be scouting you or have their base wide open.
|
This thread as been around for a while now. You shouldn't put G unless you're a high level player, it just causes a lot of useless drama. Hitting a 10min baneling bust and making a guide about it are both ridiculous ideas.
Guess what ladies, "There are better builds out there" will not contribute to innovative game play.
You're not innovating anything your just making a non-efficient strategy and calling it a "build"
To be really innovative and find new builds that exploits weaknesses of standard play, you have to really understand the game at a level you're not even close of.
It's nice to see you have tried to share your own personal cute build, but you just shouldn't label it as a "guide" because, well, it's not helping anybody and your just getting flamed for nothing.
|
This isn't that far off from the build TLO beat marineking with in that clan war match back in yesteryear (on antiga). I was actually pissed at the time, because I'd been on a zvt tear with something near-identical of my own and it suddenly went fotm. I've also seen him win (and lose) with it more recently on the Korea ladder.
It has its issues but it has its strengths too.
|
With Hots, I wonder... what if we mix in some vipers with blinding cloud on the tanks (or even abduct them out of range of the bust)? That may make this more powerful, and maybe slow lords near their main with drops, in order to elevator up into the main... >
|
On December 18 2012 02:06 DuncanIdaho wrote:With Hots, I wonder... what if we mix in some vipers with blinding cloud on the tanks (or even abduct them out of range of the bust)? That may make this more powerful, and maybe slow lords near their main with drops, in order to elevator up into the main... >
rofl
User was warned for this post
|
Thanks for the build, I think it does beat greedy terrans as others have suggested but I've had more success with the 16 gas build that hits as early as possible making 6-7 banes. I don't really want to bank on my opponent not having enough hellions though, for a bigger bust like this. I was thinking that maybe you could do this if you manage to kill, or T suicides, his initial hellions, but even then he'll have more coming if he's going mech, or tanks if he's going bio. Can you scout no tank bio in an appropriate time to get the baneling nest down though, and will T not have a rax wall in front of the natural? It looks like too many problems to deal with, for me, to hit at this time. If you want to baneling bust just trust in the 'standard' bust because it's really best and kills the most terrans, it's really really powerful and doesn't need to be added to (with more units and later time, since in any case they're basic units that are unltimately easily controlled by terrans' BO).
I really don't want to be a hater but you're defending the indefensible on this one.
Stardroid
Space
|
On December 16 2012 07:23 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 03:59 theMutt wrote:Tech is available but not necessary. You could just as easily skip an evo and an upgrade, just go for warren and carapace for about the same cost. Says who? Do you really think you are going to stop a standard Hellion/Banshee or Greedy 3 OC with 9minute Banelings? At that point without tech, it would HAVE to be do or die (I don't like using the word allin). Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 03:59 theMutt wrote:And again, usually infestor is being upped during your first push. If we're honest though, doing a bust like this tech is usually not necessary edit: tech is not crucial in the first push/bust, teching behind it is absolutely necessary . Gas towards roaches is less for banes and/or infestor. And it is very rare that I do so little damage that Terran pushes out right after the attack. Sorry but this just sounds awful. How do you start upping Infestors when you've devoted so much resources into Ling/Banelings? You'd need about 4 gases, so you won't have full mineral saturation. And if you did have full mineral saturation to justify 4 gases, then you might as well take a 3rd and just play passively like every other Zerg. You can't hit at 9minutes and do enough damage to then sit back and make Infestors. I won't go into the maths/economics of it but it just doesn't make sense to me. Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 03:59 theMutt wrote:Worst case scenario, bust doesn't do much damage but I still have map control and take the opportunity to quickly get a third fully saturated and set up for late game. Watching replays shows how this situation pans out. I'm strictly comparing your build to the "Big Bust", mainly because that is my favourite build and I'm good at it. I always go 14pool/16 hatch to get those early 2-4 lings out. Either way, I have 2 full gases and full mineral saturation. I have about 10 Roach and around 10 Banelings morphing at 7:30 outside of their base. Attack hits with an arbitrary number of lings anywhere between 8:00 and 8:30. Follow up with 2 Injects worth of lings. This is POWERFUL and will cripple or setback your enemy with good execution - even if you don't outright kill them. Even after the follow up, you have enough resources to tech, get a 3rd base AND start an upgrade. So I wonder how you have 'success' with your build when it hits so late, without a single evo and no Roaches for tanking. Your opponents must not be scouting you or have their base wide open.
Any chance you could give a rough bo outline for that push? I've been trying something like that but for some reason I hit really late...
|
Team liquid members, in general, are not likely to praise a build until you give them a reason to. You are going to get lots of criticism until you provide some evidence that shows your build is better than the standard for whatever reasons. A terran that puts a bunker in a good position and gets out fast hellions is going to have at least 4 hellions before the push happens, which is problematic. Well microed hellions and sim city are the components of "standard" fast expand builds in the current meta that are supposed to deal with banneling busts. If you can demonstrate that your build can account for this or is too powerful in some way then you will have legions of zerg followers eager to stop terrans from three basing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
