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The is my first post here, so please allow me to start off by saying I may not be following the guidelines perfectly.
I know the bane bust has been done before, but here is a build that I have been using against Terran with a great deal of success.
The Build:
The basic structure goes like this:
9 - Overlord
15 - Hatchery (@ Natural)
15 - Pool
17 - Overlord
~20 - 2 Queens (as soon as pool pops, one at each hatch)
26 - Overlord
28 - Hatchery (macro, usually inside main)
28 - Queen
42 - 3 Gas
44 - 2 Evo Chambers
+1 carapace @ 150 gas
+1 attack @ 100 gas
+ling speed @ 100 gas
+bane nest @ 50 gas
Lair @ 100 gas
60 - spam lings, lings, more lings
~9 minutes - Rally to terran, make a bunch of banes and walk in. Typically GG right there, and that's ok.
In action:
I've been using this build to get to masters and find it extremely effective vs Terran. Of course, most will simply blow it off as another cheesy All-In bust but I think the beauty of it is that it is a very fluid in versatile strat. I do not care if mass blue flame is coming, the initial bust usually does enough damage to offset my cost.
The followup
Even if the game doesn't end right here, it accomplished several things. First off, I usually gain map control and Terran will not be strong enough to move out for some time. My 3rd goes up somewhere in this mix. Also, my lair has popped and more than likely infestor energy and +2+2 is well on the way to completion if I paid attention. I suppose the attack could be made more powerful if you skip lair and 3rd base, but this gives away your advantage should you not manage to get a GG after bust. The point I really hope to make is that this is not meant to be an all-in bust, because even if you fail and terran pushes out after your first bust attempt you should have infestors on way and army available in time to defend.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/283137/d
http://drop.sc/283138/d
http://drop.sc/283140/d
Please discuss, I'm wondering if this will at some skill level become less effective.
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15H 16P lines up with the timing of the natural better- why not optimize the build? Also, why would you waste time and gas on carapace? This bane bust hits so late siege mode can easily be out..
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This hits way too late to work against standard play. Standard play will have an infinite amount of hellions out by the time you arrive (~10min). Banelingbusts only work if you hit way earlier, of terran goes for a greedy bio build or failed 2rax
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This hits way too late to work against standard play.
Can and does work. Has worked well into masters. While my replays were against relatively unskilled Terrans with little early pressure, I did this to present the timings. Still works against higher level play and early pressure.
That said, mass blue flame can be problematic. I will look for a replay in which the simple reaction is to pop down roach warren and continue with infestor tech already allowed with build. You don't have to win, just be ahead.
As long as you keep ahead with upgrades, small numbers of hellions (10-15) is still easily manageable with lings, banes, and creepspread. This build is usually strong enough to A-move and take GG 75% of the time.
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Does anyone do the "standard" bane bust anymore? I've had some success with it because T's play so greedy now. It's a very simple BO, goes something like this:
15h/16p/16g
When pool finishes, double Q (maybe 1 at nat is enough; not sure), stop droning and pump lings
@100gas, metabolic
@50gas, bane nest
Rally to his base and attack
Kill his scouting scv ASAP and try to deny scouting with lings. It usually hits when he has 2 hellions coming out on the map for map control, and before banshee. It may be holdable with 4 hellions in-base, but requires very good micro. The only games I typically lose with this build is when they went for mass rax play (sturdier wall, more units).
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10-15 is a small number of hellions? o.o
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10-15 hellions is the most before you really have to abandon ling or mix in roaches.
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On December 10 2012 08:55 theMutt wrote:Can and does work. Has worked well into masters. While my replays were against relatively unskilled Terrans with little early pressure, I did this to present the timings. Still works against higher level play and early pressure. That said, mass blue flame can be problematic. I will look for a replay in which the simple reaction is to pop down roach warren and continue with infestor tech already allowed with build. You don't have to win, just be ahead. As long as you keep ahead with upgrades, small numbers of hellions (10-15) is still easily manageable with lings, banes, and creepspread. This build is usually strong enough to A-move and take GG 75% of the time.
Sorry but "working well into masters" doesn't mean a thing. Low masters are almost indiscernible from diamonds and often cut defenses or vital sim city formations.
I agree that 10 minutes is far too late. For one thing, you'll have already faced a serious push or some harassment by Terran. So he'll know exactly what you're doing. The best you could hope for here is using this like a counter-attack and that's assuming the Terran opponent bad.
Its true that pre-masters and even into lower masters, you might get away with this sort of things (sad though that statement is). However that doesn't really make it good. It actually demonstrates very little knowledge of the game's flow or how to gain several small advantages for the snowball effect.
Please discuss, I'm wondering if this will at some skill level become less effective.
I'm willing to bet around mid-master to high masters level, you will no longer find Terrans who try to skip vital defenses or scout timings and who know how to react and build walls.
Also remember hellion/banshee hits well before 9 minutes (the move-out, not even the arrival timing) and you'll be under pressure while all the while their banshees can easily see everything.
I would greatly prefer seeing some sort of attack from 3 base opening since it would literally hit at the same time except I'd have 3 bases and 4 hatches with 2 evos a lair started before yours, and about 25 more drones than I saw in your replays. Not to mention I'd have already weathered Terran's 7-9 minute harassment options and scouted his follow-up already.
I would have better economy, much bigger army, and the ability to get to lategame very easily with a good setup.
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What is the purpose of making a macro hatch as opposed to a third? You'll only make the Terran more suspect an allin is incoming.
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Why do you get dual evo's for upgrades when you're allining? It would be much more effective to cut the upgrades for a faster attack; the attack is pretty late compared to a more standard baneling bust, as mentioned already. There's very few cases where you have upgrades in an allin, such as an immortal sentry allin PvZ, and that's because it flows to well due to you already having a forge from the expo and the timing is flexible due to chrono capabilities. Even then, there's only one upgrade building.
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I try to stress that this isn't an all in, but better seen as an opener, thus the ups and later timing. I'm really curious to see someone with a little more skill tinker around with it, since I have none.
I find that 3rd is harder to defend due to mentioned banshee timings. The hatch is needed for ling numbers, so macro hatch allows this without needing queens for defense.
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60 - spam lings, lings, more lings
~9 minutes - Rally to terran, make a bunch of banes and walk in. Typically GG right there, and that's ok.
Uhhh this doesn't exactly sound like a standard opener to me. If you don't do significant damage you're behind. Your third is late since you're making a macro hatch in the main, you're low on drones, and your tech isn't particularly ahead of his either. This is like halfway between and allin and a standard macro build and therefore doesn't really achieve anything. Stuff like this can even work up to masters, but so do other more effective builds.
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On December 10 2012 12:07 theMutt wrote:
I try to stress that this isn't an all in, but better seen as an opener, thus the ups and later timing. I'm really curious to see someone with a little more skill tinker around with it, since I have none.
I find that 3rd is harder to defend due to mentioned banshee timings. The hatch is needed for ling numbers, so macro hatch allows this without needing queens for defense.
If you have a regular third timing, you should be able to have the hatch either finished or really close to finished at the same time you already have spores in the main and natural. Simply morph a spine and spore up on the creep between your nat and third and move them down when the creep finishes if somehow its not finished.
If they go CC first though, you can literally just build a spine and spore down at the third when its done and then blast drones until you have 3 base saturation. You'll have 3 bases PLUS the macro hatch.
Its a much better opener the way the "standard" ZvT style is right now.
The way you have it because specifically it lacks tech and it emphasizes army timing over economic power, you're not planning for the lategame and thusly its not good for transitioning and its certainly not versatile because I can make any tech changes I want and can run fully into muta or infestor tech in mass whereas you're stuck on 2 bases trying to secure a third while I'm taking over the whole map and put pressure on T's expansion (or attempt to expand if they're slow/bad).
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Thanks for the effort put into this guide, always good to have new content. I do think there are earlier, stronger timing attacks in ZvT though - whether it's an earlier earlier bane bust without upgrades, a Roach/ling, or roach/ling/baneling.
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If you want a 2 base baneling bust, try out the muta/ling/baneling attack
Basically you make ~8 mutas, then morph a ton of banelings and hit the front around 10 minutes after some initial harassment
A typical 3cc opener will have just begun their production around this time, so it's likely to cripple either their army or their economy. You also take a 3rd behind it, so it's possible to transition somewhat easily.
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On December 10 2012 12:07 theMutt wrote:
I'm really curious to see someone with a little more skill tinker around with it, since I have none.
This sentence of yours should get you thinking...
Basically you state you have no skill, yet you devise a build which players of much higher caliber should try out?
A "build" is actually the most optimum way to get an idea done, btw, which takes a ton of time to figure out. A build is NOT something you extract out of a replay of yourself which happened to be working against someone)
Compare that to... say... an engineering student in the 2nd year who "devises" some kind of new engine and expects experienced engineers to "tinker around" with his idea.
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Cut out the upgrades and the lair and suddenly you have something somewhat viable on your hands. I really don't see the point in bothering with upgrades or teching to lair when your intent is to end the game with the baneling bust.
It almost seems like you're trying to assure yourself that you're not going all-in because you're "transitioning" to lair tech.
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http://drop.sc/283552/d
It won't change whether or not the build is viable, but here is another decent match vs a terran that I believe was a much higher skill player than me (but dont tell him that!) His APM is much higher, his play much more intensive than my typical A-move.
I'll drop it here though. Thanks for the input.
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On December 11 2012 15:57 theMutt wrote:
It won't change whether or not the build is viable, but ...
If you aren't willing to listen to advice on your build, why come here and post in the first place?
Edit: I may have misread your post as it can be read either way, i.e. "the build won't change whether or not you guys find the build viable" and "the replay I post won't change whether or not the build is viable".
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i dont understand the point of this build, you would have much higher winrate tvz with standard macro play than doing silly allins. Eventually ppl will start to defend againts this build and you will hit a wall, you will need to learn to play macro, so why delay it? just learn to play macro now.
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EPT
