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There are no plans for a guide to other match-ups at this time. This guide was an entirely organic effort from TL community members of similar interests. |
On November 28 2012 00:31 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 00:28 Jermstuddog wrote:I want to point out an issue with this guide and basically every Protoss I ever play on the ladder. Nobody seems to handle the specific situation of in-base proxy hatch vs nexus first FFE correctly, and I think it needs some addressing. My standard opening in ZvP has been 13 pool 15 hatch for probably a year or more. I'm glad DRG is finally coming around  Anyway, I scout on 13 very specifically to see the timing of my opponents forge/nexus. If Protoss goes nexus first, I proxy hatch his main every time and have won every game proceeding from this point onward with the exceptions being in the single digits I'm sure because it puts Protoss in a horrible position of having to choose which base to defend and not having the resources to do so UNLESS HE CANCELS HIS NATURAL NEXUS. I make 6 lings immediately at pool pop and send them to the front door while my overlord hangs out over my hatchery so I know how P is spending his money on that front. Pull too many probes and you are killing your economy, pull too few and you won't kill the hatchery in time to prevent the roach flood. You can't afford a pylon and 2 cannons at the in-base hatch because there is no time. You likely won't even finish your wall or the cannon by the time the lings come (though that is possible, it requires dedication to that task and ignoring the hatch). I offer every Protoss a rematch when they lose to this so they can show me the flaw in my build, few take me up on my offer and none has ever convinced me that they can beat the build consistently. I offer the idea of cancelling the natural nexus which offers the ability to wall off the front and properly defend the hatchery as a viable build, but this puts Protoss behind and nobody wants to listen to my advice. If anybody wants to test me on this, I will be happy to play a few rounds to explore the viability of this build and Protoss defense options. So, see earlier pool, 15 forge into nexus into cannon + probe pull? Or do you actually have a proposed solution?
Vs Forge first, I try to block the natural and cancel when the time comes. Forge first is plenty safe vs in-base hatch shenanigans, but Nexus first is more standard right now, and nobody seems to handle it properly.
For scouting, I would say you need to learn the difference between a 13 pool and 14 pool if you really want to be safe. 13 pool goes down around 1:51. 14 pool is usually around 1:55+ Those 4 seconds make all the difference. If you can't tell the timing, I'd suggest Forge first.
You can also count drones to see Zergs options. The only reason my build works so well is because I have the drone in position to in-base hatch immediately when I hit 300 minerals. If Z doesn't scout until later, he likely won't have the means to punish nexus first.
Alternatively, you could set 2 probes to chase my drone around in your base as mentioned in the guide. 1 is not enough to stop a hatchery from going down, I don't care if you scout it when you don't have the resources to stop it, but 2 probes doesn't allow the space to place the hatchery.
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On November 27 2012 19:55 xAdra wrote:
A question:
In the portion about using base-trades to combat infestor-broodlords, there is this paragraph:
"In addition, try not to engage in a full base trade. Zerg can always uproot his Spores and Spines and move them with his army. Then you will still have to eventually be forced to fight his army, a battle you usually will not be able to win."
What is and is not considered a "full" base trade?
all bases get destroyed vs. everyone is left with 1/2 bases...
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Thank you! "Carrier transition" was all I needed to see to have faith that Protoss players are actually learning
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Wow, just wow. This must be the mother of all guides. Have not had time to read all of it just yet , but from what I have read and seen it is simply awesome!
The aspiring protoss players out there are really lucky to have this kind of comprehensive guide to help them.
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AWESOME!
you gotta do this for every matchup though its probably quite some work but it will really pay off!
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The longest guide ever made for SC2. This shows the state of the game, and it's prety sad, but i applaud the proactive approach. It's still just a guide, how to play well and yet lose, but it's the best we can do
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
I am somewhat glad the Sad Zealot is back. :3
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Amazing! ^^
It's even hard to imagine the amount and hard work and time that took in putting all of this together. Great work! Thank you
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Awesome job. Had a quick glance through most of it and seems like some really solid stuff in here. Will enjoy giving it a thorough read through now to absorb some of the finer points! Thanks.
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"Unless you're a Terran, then go away!" No one loves me! 
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Damn, that's comprehensive. Just wish I had the time or the patience to actually sit down and read guides like this. But I don't, so instead I'll just play tons of games and improve really slowly.
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I am terran and on my way to... well, away I suppose.
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Amazing! Thank you for writing all this up. Gonna be a great read.
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This is helluva big work done by the authors - thanks for the article! I've printed out the first 28 pages to be read while commuting to work hoping to appreciate watching PvZ more after this. Being a gold Terran player means I have no clue whatsoever about the MU. Thanks! :-)
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I didn't have time to read the whole guide yet, but what I've read looks amazing! Fantastic work, thank you so much!
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I guess it wouldn't hurt to practice Protoss as well...
And yeah, to all who took part in creating this, you deserve an award or something. Fantastic job.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 28 2012 01:27 derpface wrote:
Nice read. 10/10
Yes, I'm sure you read the entirety of the OP.
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EPT
