EPTThe history bit really gave an epic feel to SC2 that I otherwise only get when I read the featured BW threads.
Protoss versus Zerg: The Guide - Page 25
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There are no plans for a guide to other match-ups at this time. This guide was an entirely organic effort from TL community members of similar interests. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
The history bit really gave an epic feel to SC2 that I otherwise only get when I read the featured BW threads. | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
TIME FOR PRACTISE INCOMING ! | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
My god, 51000 words... | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
Ha ha  I'm sure that's part of the reason TL released this - they knew it would get the Zerg players interested, too! | ||
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Zenatsu
100 Posts
Welcome to theory-crafting. This is | ||
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Smontage
United Kingdom2 Posts
Breathtakingly good. What a day to be Protoss. One minor gripe I did have is the images showing building placements, perhaps I'm the only one but I just can't take in the exact location of everything unless the building matrix is overlayed - I need to see the grid layout to really 'see' where the buildings are. But yeah maybe that's just me. Thanks again!! | ||
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Rossie
136 Posts
Also, it's going to obscure the game balance. Will it be fair if PvZ is still 50:50 in win ratios even though Protoss players go to all the trouble of creating and pouring over a guide like this one -- whereas Zerg players can't be bothered to create their own corresponding guide, and have to do do nothing but copy what they saw some other Zerg do? | ||
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Xyl
United States25 Posts
That's a ridiculous amount of content. Well done, fellas. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
Thanks didn't see it... every protoss player should print and have it next to their PC. | ||
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Achaia
United States643 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On November 27 2012 21:30 Rossie wrote: I don't like it. It's dumbing things down. I took pride in being able to find this stuff out for myself by paying close attention to VODs. Knowledge will no longer be a component of skill, because every Protoss player will know approximately the same stuff. Also, it's going to obscure the game balance. Will it be fair if PvZ is still 50:50 in win ratios even though Protoss players go to all the trouble of creating and pouring over a guide like this one -- whereas Zerg players can't be bothered to create their own corresponding guide, and have to do do nothing but copy what they saw some other Zerg do? I don't think that's something you should worry about, because it takes a lot more work than just reading the material once to be able to adequately incorporate it into your gameplay. This is a great resource for protoss players, but they still need to work to apply it, and they'll still need to be open-minded and flexible. It is also a great resource for zerg players, because they talk a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of what zerg can do, and what protoss needs to be afraid of at what times, etc. | ||
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Emuking
United States144 Posts
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Sephiroth6969
1 Post
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Shonof
Netherlands9 Posts
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cassurai
Singapore307 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Nobody seems to handle the specific situation of in-base proxy hatch vs nexus first FFE correctly, and I think it needs some addressing. My standard opening in ZvP has been 13 pool 15 hatch for probably a year or more. I'm glad DRG is finally coming around  Anyway, I scout on 13 very specifically to see the timing of my opponents forge/nexus. If Protoss goes nexus first, I proxy hatch his main every time and have won every game proceeding from this point onward with the exceptions being in the single digits I'm sure because it puts Protoss in a horrible position of having to choose which base to defend and not having the resources to do so UNLESS HE CANCELS HIS NATURAL NEXUS. I make 6 lings immediately at pool pop and send them to the front door while my overlord hangs out over my hatchery so I know how P is spending his money on that front. Pull too many probes and you are killing your economy, pull too few and you won't kill the hatchery in time to prevent the roach flood. You can't afford a pylon and 2 cannons at the in-base hatch because there is no time. You likely won't even finish your wall or the cannon at the front by the time the lings come (though that is possible, it requires dedication to that task and ignoring the hatch). I offer every Protoss a rematch when they lose to this so they can show me the flaw in my build, few take me up on my offer and none has ever convinced me that they can beat the build consistently. I offer the idea of cancelling the natural nexus which offers the ability to wall off the front and properly defend the hatchery as a viable build, but this puts Protoss behind and nobody wants to listen to my advice. If anybody wants to test me on this, I will be happy to play a few rounds to explore the viability of this build and Protoss defense options. | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On November 27 2012 21:30 Rossie wrote: I don't like it. It's dumbing things down. I took pride in being able to find this stuff out for myself by paying close attention to VODs. Knowledge will no longer be a component of skill, because every Protoss player will know approximately the same stuff. Also, it's going to obscure the game balance. Will it be fair if PvZ is still 50:50 in win ratios even though Protoss players go to all the trouble of creating and pouring over a guide like this one -- whereas Zerg players can't be bothered to create their own corresponding guide, and have to do do nothing but copy what they saw some other Zerg do? That's not true. Belial as an amazing ZvP guide. | ||
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sebvolc
Denmark20 Posts
This comprehensive guide to a single matchup from one perspective both shows why it takes time to master the game, and how much you really have to learn to be able to compete in all three matchups either race. And that is to say without a comprehensive and extensive guide such as this. I hope this can inspire to some more indepth guides to how to play the different races in the different matchups. Since I feel that game understanding is something that you should be able to look up, and not learn for you self from scratch. <3 <3 <3 TL <3 <3 <3 | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On November 28 2012 00:28 Jermstuddog wrote: I want to point out an issue with this guide and basically every Protoss I ever play on the ladder. Nobody seems to handle the specific situation of in-base proxy hatch vs nexus first FFE correctly, and I think it needs some addressing. My standard opening in ZvP has been 13 pool 15 hatch for probably a year or more. I'm glad DRG is finally coming around Anyway, I scout on 13 very specifically to see the timing of my opponents forge/nexus. If Protoss goes nexus first, I proxy hatch his main every time and have won every game proceeding from this point onward with the exceptions being in the single digits I'm sure because it puts Protoss in a horrible position of having to choose which base to defend and not having the resources to do so UNLESS HE CANCELS HIS NATURAL NEXUS. I make 6 lings immediately at pool pop and send them to the front door while my overlord hangs out over my hatchery so I know how P is spending his money on that front. Pull too many probes and you are killing your economy, pull too few and you won't kill the hatchery in time to prevent the roach flood. You can't afford a pylon and 2 cannons at the in-base hatch because there is no time. You likely won't even finish your wall or the cannon by the time the lings come (though that is possible, it requires dedication to that task and ignoring the hatch). I offer every Protoss a rematch when they lose to this so they can show me the flaw in my build, few take me up on my offer and none has ever convinced me that they can beat the build consistently. I offer the idea of cancelling the natural nexus which offers the ability to wall off the front and properly defend the hatchery as a viable build, but this puts Protoss behind and nobody wants to listen to my advice. If anybody wants to test me on this, I will be happy to play a few rounds to explore the viability of this build and Protoss defense options. So, see earlier pool, 15 forge into nexus into cannon + probe pull? Or do you actually have a proposed solution? | ||
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