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Just a thought....
What might be more efficient...vs (HOTS MMM/Marine Tank/MMM Tank
Old style, Ling/Bane/Infestor/ultra
Ultra/Ling/Hydra/Viper
Ultra/Ling/Muta
What im trying to get at here...is can the Ultra be the new substitute for banes (in the late game)? Cleave does essentially the same dmg as a bane, and essentially they can get more shots off since its an attack not a suicidal unit. With the lack of banes, and possibly infestors you can supplement your army with more vipers and hydras/muta (to focus down dropships).
Is this viable?
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I think for zvp roach hydra with drops early-ish is really strong in what I've seen so far. I usually get +1 ranged then add a second evo and get +2/+1 ranged/carapace and go ling/roach/hydra for quite a while and then slowly tech up to some vipers + broodlords if necessary. It seems like a good way to prevent the protoss from getting to the really strong lategame that they are capable of.
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On December 31 2012 15:47 Voodoo[z] wrote:
I think for zvp roach hydra with drops early-ish is really strong in what I've seen so far. I usually get +1 ranged then add a second evo and get +2/+1 ranged/carapace and go ling/roach/hydra for quite a while and then slowly tech up to some vipers + broodlords if necessary. It seems like a good way to prevent the protoss from getting to the really strong lategame that they are capable of.
That only really works if the protoss stays on classic crappy Gateway units+colosi tech, HOTS most top toss go right for sky toss.
It's not like WOL where toss has to "transition" into sky toss for late game, HOTS makes it so toss can open double stargate off a FFE and be safe from early attacks via msc/oracle worker harassment/voids ect. Broodlords near useless vs protoss in Hots 100% wast.
Ultras are decent if the protoss stays on weak gateway units all game, (most wont ) You would need to do large amounts of dmg with your drops, or you will lose.
A standard roach/hydra/viper vs a colosi based army, and standard Infestor/hydra/corrupter vs the popular skytoss+storm/zealot armies. Been watching alot of Pro HOTS matches , rootcatz ect who steam often and thats exactly what they been doing as far as standard macro games go.
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On December 31 2012 12:01 RimJaynor wrote:
Just a thought....
What might be more efficient...vs (HOTS MMM/Marine Tank/MMM Tank
Old style, Ling/Bane/Infestor/ultra
Ultra/Ling/Hydra/Viper
Ultra/Ling/Muta
What im trying to get at here...is can the Ultra be the new substitute for banes (in the late game)? Cleave does essentially the same dmg as a bane, and essentially they can get more shots off since its an attack not a suicidal unit. With the lack of banes, and possibly infestors you can supplement your army with more vipers and hydras/muta (to focus down dropships).
Is this viable?
In WoL banelings are generally used as stepping stones to higher tech as opposed to part of the main composition. Once hive tech is up, you could use the gas you didn't spend on banelings elsewhere. I see them with the same role in HotS. Ultras come out too late to defend pre-hive timing attacks so you need either banelings or infestors.
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What do you think about skipping roach warren in ZvP until much later and get a faster lair + hydra den?
My reasoning is:
- hydras are better against immortal/sentry and obviously air
- roaches also require lair speed, so not very different timings for both units to be 100% effective, which is compensated by earlier lair.
Problem would be holding 8min pushes like 7gate, but you can make the roach warren at 6:30 as usual if you scout that, otherwise go lair with first 100 gas.
Am I missing any obvious reason to build a roach warren other than holding these earlier pushes like 7gate?
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Someone explain muta vs muta zvz
is fucking retarded, no amtter what i do i loose it
If i upgrade lings to get that advantage, i loose. Double spire upgrades, i loose. No ling ups, single spire, i loose. Fast gasses, i loose.
i just dont know how to play this fucking retarded matchup anymore
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On January 06 2013 02:39 tehcaekftw wrote:
Someone explain muta vs muta zvz
is fucking retarded, no amtter what i do i loose it
If i upgrade lings to get that advantage, i loose. Double spire upgrades, i loose. No ling ups, single spire, i loose. Fast gasses, i loose.
i just dont know how to play this fucking retarded matchup anymore
Well don't get ling upgrades and don't double spire.
Get your 2nd gas at 5:50 and then at 6:30 go lair and take your 3rd and 4'th gas. Then once you drone up a bit make mass ling/bane and do some pressure while taking a third and starting your spire. Then after this period if both get mutas out then try to be aggressive, but not to aggressive.
Send some lings for a counter attack while attacking another point if possible.
Make sure you don't miss to many injects and you are always macroing.
For muta upgrades get + 1 armor first, then +1 attack, then +2 armor if the game is still going.
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Doing that really, exept the harrassing thing.
I'll try harrassing a lot more, thanks.
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Just started playing the beta, wondering how much defense do you really need against the 2 port skytoss harassment? I think i've been either overdefending then getting crushed lategame, or underdefending and just losing all my drones to oracle/pheonix.
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On January 06 2013 13:38 cerebralz wrote:
Just started playing the beta, wondering how much defense do you really need against the 2 port skytoss harassment? I think i've been either overdefending then getting crushed lategame, or underdefending and just losing all my drones to oracle/pheonix.
too vague a question depends on how much of waht they make
a couple spores should be enough to scare them off and then you can get hydras and either go for a counter or use them to help defend the more oracls and phoenixs the worse there army will be
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On January 06 2013 02:39 tehcaekftw wrote:
Someone explain muta vs muta zvz
is fucking retarded, no amtter what i do i loose it
If i upgrade lings to get that advantage, i loose. Double spire upgrades, i loose. No ling ups, single spire, i loose. Fast gasses, i loose.
i just dont know how to play this fucking retarded matchup anymore
You basically want to take a fast expansion and get really fast banelings to either be aggressive with or defend against a ling swell. Take a fast lair and begin to save up on gas and drop a spire. Stock up as much gas as you can without dying and as soon as spire pops, make sure you have gas/min and supply saved up so you can make 5-8 mutas right away. As soon as they pop go do damage with them and just spend as much gas on muta as you can. get +1 armor for the mutas and keep making them.
If he is going roach he will try to counter you with a big roach swell, but spines and muta/ling defend this really well. I also like trying to snipe his hydra den if he is going that route
dont upgrade zerglings or double spire. Dont transition out of muta/ling. Make a couple banes if you have to, but the rest of your gas goes mutas
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Now, I have my own question
How are you guys handling ZvP? It's a very tough match up for me right now. Using in-game stastistics, my ZvZ is 50% exactly, my ZvT is 67% (ultras are good) and my ZvP is 34%
I open 3hatch gasless against FFE, but most of my wins are when they 1gate expand since you can kill them with early game compositions like roach/ling or roach/hydra before they get colossi out
but as soon as the mid-game starts and everyone's on 3 bases I have no idea how to kill them. Mutas are worthless since they don't stop you from dying. Roach/Hydra/Viper doesn't work if they hit a critical mass of colossi. You can't get ultras out fast enough to not die to a timing and even if you do get them out, voidrays and storm are pretty fucking good.
Really need some help here. Alternatively, if anyone has been experimenting with good all-in/cheese in ZvP that would be good too. I just want to win
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On January 07 2013 11:52 RedZ wrote:
Now, I have my own question
How are you guys handling ZvP? It's a very tough match up for me right now. Using in-game stastistics, my ZvZ is 50% exactly, my ZvT is 67% (ultras are good) and my ZvP is 34%
I open 3hatch gasless against FFE, but most of my wins are when they 1gate expand since you can kill them with early game compositions like roach/ling or roach/hydra before they get colossi out
but as soon as the mid-game starts and everyone's on 3 bases I have no idea how to kill them. Mutas are worthless since they don't stop you from dying. Roach/Hydra/Viper doesn't work if they hit a critical mass of colossi. You can't get ultras out fast enough to not die to a timing and even if you do get them out, voidrays and storm are pretty fucking good.
Really need some help here. Alternatively, if anyone has been experimenting with good all-in/cheese in ZvP that would be good too. I just want to win
Hm roach/hydra aggression with vipers while you say vipers are useless I heavily disagree. Doing a roach/hydra/corruptor timing then adding vipers is pretty strong to but you do have to transition out of it.
You should be adding infestors at some point as well.
I saw idra doing a ling double upgrade into very fast hive into ultra/ling/bane/infestor with corruptors if the toss is going heavy air. He beat seed with it.
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Greetings everyone.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks.
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I don't know where to post it, so I will try here.
What do you guys think about idea of changing banelings, so if you detonate them manually (by pressing hotkey), they will hit air above them? And this is why it would be good: In ZvT it won't change that much. But, there is a little problem right now. Mutas are not longer a good option, due to widow mines. So zerg doesn't have any good AA to deal with new faster medivacs, banshee etc. Baneling won't kill, won't even take 50% of its HP but still, it will be always an option, and it might help.
In ZvP Protoss is often going for stargate, or even double stargate. Zerg needs to go either hydra, or spire, as I feel infestors won't be enough. So banelings might help a bit, and maybe won't force tech swich. (For example I enjoy playing ling/bling/ultra in both ZvT and ZvP, and I have no AA at all there).
But here is the real thing. ZvZ. Right now it's in 95% muta vs muta. Hydras just don't do their job against mutas. Infestors are still good but it's not game ending when you see those. As long as I like muta vs muta, I feel that there should be more options. My little change could add a lot of them. It will add some more micro, you will need to watch not to detonate blings on lings under mutas etc. And most important, one hit won't end the game, and kill all mutas, like fungal does.
What do you guys think about it?
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On January 07 2013 14:30 MuffinCookie wrote:
Greetings everyone.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks.
I'm about platinum/diamond and while I see lots of different stuff (especially cheese) there are a few trends I've noticed
ZvT - I open hatch first, 3-4 queen with a relatively fast gas around 20 supply and then I stay on line/bane and take a fast third and get a really fast hive into ultralisks. Does well against everything except a thor ball with a lot of tanks. Against bio, Ultra/ling/bling/viper is really, really good and it'll work against mech too, but not quite as well depending on how many thors to tanks he has. If he is going mech, I favor an ultra/hydra style leaning more towards ultras.
ZvP - I struggle here so I really can't comment, sorry. But I was watching Idra play today and he won a couple games off Seed with ling/bling/muta and ling/bling/infestor/ultra, neither of which I have tried. (thanks blade for the suggestion). But your opener is still 3hatch gasless against FFE. You'll see some 1gate expands, however, that's pretty easy to respond to. Just 15pool/16hatch and take a fast gas and check if he is cheesing you or just expanding. I feel like you can punish him if he expands with roach/ling and definitely with roach/hydra
ZvZ - Mutas are the game here. If you do anything else, you basically lose. I like a safe opener of either speedling expand or 14p/16h and fast speed and banelings. Either defend or be aggressive from here, but ultimately you want to get into mutas and never stop. Even if he goes roach/hydra, the upgraded mutalisks are tough enough to snipe the hydra den and assist in a fight.
I always build a few vipers when I get hive, too, but the effectiveness varies. I might not be that good with them. Blade or someone more educated, feel free to correct this write up
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On November 11 2012 08:14 gCgCrypto wrote:
hey, i need help beating Terran in ZvT ...
Terran just goes Viking and Widdow mine, Tons and tons of widdow mines.
Because of the Vikings i have no detection eccept for sporecrawlers and the widdow mines kil EVERYTHING...
I played a 1 hour long game in wich i tried Broodlord corruptor infestor, wich got obliterated, i tried ultras, swarm hosts, Zergling Baneling, Roaches, all got obliterated.
Hydras seemed to work best but his vikings picking off my Overseers made this fail aswell.
I feel like there is literaly nothing, no unit compositon, that can beat this simple midgame composition.
Enyone having to deal with this aswell?
Help?
Edit: After more games vs this i found my Misstake, I opened Mutas vs this and thus his Widdow mine numbers got out of hand. Should´ve just started with Swarm hosts to slowly push hi back and use spores for detection.
The solution is simple. INFESTOR. If u see that comp, just max out on hydra infestors. Why do you ask? Fungal REVEALS mines and that is the only detection that cannot be sniped by vikings. If vikings land, well, your hydras will make mince meat out of them while they're transforming for them to be even close to being cost efficient. If you haven't noticed, mass mines are the clear answer to attack move units. But when infestors are in play, they won't even touch your army.
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On January 07 2013 18:09 RedZ wrote:
ZvP - I struggle here so I really can't comment, sorry. But I was watching Idra play today and he won a couple games off Seed with ling/bling/muta and ling/bling/infestor/ultra, neither of which I have tried. (thanks blade for the suggestion). But your opener is still 3hatch gasless against FFE. You'll see some 1gate expands, however, that's pretty easy to respond to. Just 15pool/16hatch and take a fast gas and check if he is cheesing you or just expanding. I feel like you can punish him if he expands with roach/ling and definitely with roach/hydra
I'm about the same lv as you are on the beta (which mean not much right? :p) but I feel very confident in ZvP, especially against any ground army.
My general game-plan is Ling/Hydra (with range upgrade) pressure (which is safe until AOE are out and very efficient at dealing damage and pressuring the third) into roach/hydra/viper (I out-right kill the protoss with this or contain him on 3-Bases while trading very efficiently with his high gaz units, building lots of static defenses and teching to everything I want) into Ultra and everything else.
A mid-game with Mutas or infestors (with transitions into Ultra) is also good but I feel weaker with this against everything the protoss can throw at me on three bases.
In general, I feel like the ultimate composition a zerg army has to reach against a ground protoss is something like ling/bling/infestor/ultra.
Against skytoss I try to kill him with ling/hydra and if I'm not able to, mix in corruptors and infestors but it's a bit hard if it gets out of hand.
What I find hard is to do early damage to the toss with something like fast roaches or baneling bust. I feel like with the MSC it's near impossible to pull out these kind of agression.
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On January 06 2013 04:45 blade55555 wrote:
For muta upgrades get + 1 armor first, then +1 attack, then +2 armor if the game is still going.
I never understood why get +1 attack over +2 armor. Is it "only" because +2 armor take longer and cost more ressources, so that if one player go attack and the other armor, the player going attack upgrade can hit a timing with 1-1 against 0-1?
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On January 07 2013 18:09 RedZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 14:30 MuffinCookie wrote:
Greetings everyone.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks. I'm about platinum/diamond and while I see lots of different stuff (especially cheese) there are a few trends I've noticed ZvT - I open hatch first, 3-4 queen with a relatively fast gas around 20 supply and then I stay on line/bane and take a fast third and get a really fast hive into ultralisks. Does well against everything except a thor ball with a lot of tanks. Against bio, Ultra/ling/bling/viper is really, really good and it'll work against mech too, but not quite as well depending on how many thors to tanks he has. If he is going mech, I favor an ultra/hydra style leaning more towards ultras.
I've heard of this 3-4 queen style before, I think from Wings of the Liberty too. What are the timings for the 3rd and 4th queen? Do you just make them right after the 1st and 2nd queens? What I have been doing so far is just a 14hatch/15pool with two queens almost immediately after the pool pops (preferably producing simultaneously). And then I just wing it. Which is terrible, because it works in the Bronze League. My placement matches went pretty badly. 
And for ZvP, I played against someone who didn't do the usual FFE, and went for a Mothership Core/Gateway push which basically killed me. In this case, I wouldn't take a third, right? Thanks.
*Edit: I have one more question. I really like using the Swarm Host, it seems to just kill things really well. Even if it feels like I have a smaller/weaker army, everything on the ground just dies to Locusts. What goes well with Swarm Hosts? Thanks again.
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EPT
