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On December 27 2012 12:01 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 11:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions.
I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU.
(This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe:
- roach/hydra
- muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe?
Thx. zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling. Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too. Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile. Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right?
Hydras seem still too bad in some MU.
I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
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i dont think muta is a really stable option for ZvP still. It still play like a huge gimmick:
Do i get 2base allinned? if so then i´m dead ...
Does my oponent open 2 Stargate? Welp i´m dead ...
If both of these don´t apply however its almost like a autowin because the new Mutas are incredibly strong vs nonstargate openings.
I actually find Roach/ Hydra Viper to be the best ZvP strat.
The Hydras make the Immortal allin (and every other 2 Base allin) easily holdable but unlike WoL the Hydras still have value after Protoss gets a 3ds because:
1. The Speed upgrade makes Hydras microable so you can split them, run away or dodge storms.
2. The Viper can come soon enough to eliminate threats like colossi to support the Hydralisk.
ZvZ however is a huge Mutafeast.
I currently see no disadvantage to building more mutas (sth like a scourge is lacking, maby Blizz will do sth intresting about the Corrupter that dosnt make Mutas unplayable but gives muta/corruptor an edge over pure muta)
At least ZvZ has now gotten way more demanding because its not all the muta, the right balance of Lings, Banelings and Groundupgrades seems to be key.
If we both mirror eachothers Builds but i get 2 Mutas less in favour of 8 Banelings i probably win beacue i can kill of your lings and either attack your eco with my left lings or tank glaves so my lower muta amount still wins vs your higher one etc.
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Vipers are Hive tech though, you'd need a pretty early Hive if you want to have vipers out before P gets more than 3-4 collosus.
I've used Roach Hydra with success though.
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On December 28 2012 01:33 tehcaekftw wrote:
Vipers are Hive tech though, you'd need a pretty early Hive if you want to have vipers out before P gets more than 3-4 collosus.
I've used Roach Hydra with success though.
Well you need a pretty early hive anyway if you want to achive anything vs Protoss anyway (12 minutes hive done so you can get your broods in time is standard in wings)
The Thing with the Viper is that you ONLY need hive. No tech building, no upgrade, just some seconds to drain some energy.
And it comes totaly in time for any scary colosus based push, if you time it correctly.
Most of the time I defend 8minute 2 Pushes with Roach Ling or 10+ Minute 2 base pushes (Immo sentry allin, some Blink allins or stargate allins) with Ling Hydra and then transition into a 4th Roaches and a relativly early hive so i get vipers around the 12 minute mark.
If he pushes out with about 1-2 colossi before i have Hydras i can still beat it with a good surround of Roach Hydra.
Honestly its easier to get Vipers out vs Colossi then corrupters because if you get corrupters youre fucked when you over/under commit to them while 2 Vipers are enough to hold a push.
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couldnt agree more @gCgCrypto
btw, getting vipers out is the same time like getting a spire for curropters, so its not a huge deal. i also feel like (roach) ling, hydra viper into ultra is the best way to play zvp atm, i also couldnt find a way to use mutas well in zvp so far
its never wrong to build 2-3 infestors (without any upgrades) as soon as you have your pit, you will stockpile a lot of energy and theres nothing more deadly than infestor + viper
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Hmm, so some people think hydras are a safer option than mutas in ZvP.
However hydras are still not very good in ZvT are they?
What about hydras in ZvZ, can they beat mutas?
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On December 28 2012 02:45 doggy wrote:
couldnt agree more @gCgCrypto
btw, getting vipers out is the same time like getting a spire for curropters, so its not a huge deal. i also feel like (roach) ling, hydra viper into ultra is the best way to play zvp atm, i also couldnt find a way to use mutas well in zvp so far
its never wrong to build 2-3 infestors (without any upgrades) as soon as you have your pit, you will stockpile a lot of energy and theres nothing more deadly than infestor + viper
You are entierly right (in fact its even longer by time because you need a infestation pit first) about how fast you can get corrupters / Vipers. I was more referring to the fact that while 2-3 Vipers are entierly sufficient and will stay usefull throughout the lategame, you´d need 10++ Corruptors to deal with a push at that time and those corruptors would become rather useless later on (i dont feel like Broodlords are much of a option ZvP now anymore)
On December 28 2012 03:44 Azoryen wrote:
Hmm, so some people think hydras are a safer option than mutas in ZvP.
However hydras are still not very good in ZvT are they?
What about hydras in ZvZ, can they beat mutas?
Hydras are AMAZING vs Terran if Terran mechs (Roach Hydra Viper is near unbeatable for mech if pulled off correctly)
In ZvZ you have to go Mutas if you plan on not doing a 2base allin.
There is no way you will beat Mutas with Hydras, even in a straight army battle, wich should never happen if the Muta player is any good (assuming there are no infestors)
Also Infestors dont do much against a good Muta player anymore because it is very easy to dodge the fungal now.
For ZvZ i´d recommend 2 Base muta and then try to defend you 3rd for additional gass.
ZvZ is incredibly fast paced at the momend.
Not only do you need to keep your muta numbers and upgrades up (allways carapace!) but you need to find the right balance of Lings, banelings and ground upgrades to surpass your oponents ground army (when you have lings under a muta fight you have a huge advantage because some of the enemys glaves bounce on the Lings instead of your mutas)
Also there is a lot of counterattacking and multipronged herrass in ZvZ atm.
Overall i feel like its the most demanding matchup (at least when it comes to ZvX) but it can be a lot of fun ^^
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You did understand me wrong bro, i was arguing for vipers instead of curropters like you did, not the other way round :D
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How do i deal with a marine/tank timing with widow mines and 1-2 hellbats? This was hard enough to hold in WoL, when teh terran pushes in the late midgame with 2/2, but i cant handle it with the widow mines and the hellbats. Roach/hydra doesnt work cause viper is t3. I dont have enough units when i go fast hive. Swarm host is just terrible. Lings get facerolled by al the terran's stuff, and mutas dont work at all because of widow mine. I can't even harrass with them. Does anyone know how to hold this off?
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On December 27 2012 18:22 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 12:01 blade55555 wrote:On December 27 2012 11:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions.
I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU.
(This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe:
- roach/hydra
- muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe?
Thx. zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling. Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too. Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile. Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout).
I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp.
zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else.
zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D.
On December 28 2012 05:02 NonameAI wrote:
How do i deal with a marine/tank timing with widow mines and 1-2 hellbats? This was hard enough to hold in WoL, when teh terran pushes in the late midgame with 2/2, but i cant handle it with the widow mines and the hellbats. Roach/hydra doesnt work cause viper is t3. I dont have enough units when i go fast hive. Swarm host is just terrible. Lings get facerolled by al the terran's stuff, and mutas dont work at all because of widow mine. I can't even harrass with them. Does anyone know how to hold this off?
Need to do roach/ling/bane. I think I have vipers out when that 2/2 timing hits but I can't remember, I do get a really fast hive and with flanking roach/ling/bane will hold it pretty well.
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On December 28 2012 04:51 doggy wrote:
You did understand me wrong bro, i was arguing for vipers instead of curropters like you did, not the other way round :D
I did understand you right, was just clarifying my point ^^
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How do u trade efficiently against skytoss? Very hard to deal with... Corruptor melt against new void ray and hydra/infest dont do the job late game imo.
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On December 28 2012 08:20 syroz wrote:
How do u trade efficiently against skytoss? Very hard to deal with... Corruptor melt against new void ray and hydra/infest dont do the job late game imo.
You need to be aggressive. You can not let protoss get their killer late game air army or you lose.
You need to be denying expansions as long as possible, using hydra/corruptor to be aggressive if he is going mainly air to try and keep it down as low as possible.
If you give the protoss time to get his army of voidray/carrier/templar then you are dead (assuming he is on 4+ bases like you).
In short just be aggressive and try to prevent him from getting that army.
Think of it as opposite of WoL zvp where tosses try to kill zerg before they get their army, now we as zergs have to kill or cripple toss so they can't get their strong army.
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On December 28 2012 03:44 Azoryen wrote:
Hmm, so some people think hydras are a safer option than mutas in ZvP.
However hydras are still not very good in ZvT are they?
What about hydras in ZvZ, can they beat mutas?
Eh, hydras are alright vs protoss but mutas are much more effective I think. Sure you can't always go muta but there is really a lot of ways to get them out. Like, obviously if protoss is 2base allinning you want to hold with roachling or whatever but that goes for any matchup really. If protoss opens stargate ill often open with a hydra den to try and force the protoss into colossus tech while I build my spire...if they go robo I go muta and if they keep making air I can go roach hydra corruptor.
Right now mutas are my go-to unit in every matchup, they're really quite great.
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On December 28 2012 08:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 08:20 syroz wrote:
How do u trade efficiently against skytoss? Very hard to deal with... Corruptor melt against new void ray and hydra/infest dont do the job late game imo. You need to be aggressive. You can not let protoss get their killer late game air army or you lose. You need to be denying expansions as long as possible, using hydra/corruptor to be aggressive if he is going mainly air to try and keep it down as low as possible. If you give the protoss time to get his army of voidray/carrier/templar then you are dead (assuming he is on 4+ bases like you). In short just be aggressive and try to prevent him from getting that army. Think of it as opposite of WoL zvp where tosses try to kill zerg before they get their army, now we as zergs have to kill or cripple toss so they can't get their strong army.
You're quite right, so far I've had no problem ever beating skytoss with a mostly hydra and corruptor army, just keep attacking and remaxing.
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On December 28 2012 05:54 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 18:22 Azoryen wrote:On December 27 2012 12:01 blade55555 wrote:On December 27 2012 11:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions.
I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU.
(This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe:
- roach/hydra
- muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe?
Thx. zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling. Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too. Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile. Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them. Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout). I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp. zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else. zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D.
So let me try to summarize all the great inputs.
ZvP you can go muta in some scenarios, but not all (e.g. vs stargate builds). You can go roach/hydra in any case, so if I want a similar build/plan for the entire MU, this is the best option. Ultra/bane/viper is a good lategame composition in either case.
Question: if I you go roach/hydra should I get any range upgrades?
ZvT roach/hydra vs mech adding viper later.
Vs bio I suppose ling/bane->infestor/ultra?
ZvZ muta rules atm.
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On December 28 2012 18:22 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:54 blade55555 wrote:On December 27 2012 18:22 Azoryen wrote:On December 27 2012 12:01 blade55555 wrote:On December 27 2012 11:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions.
I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU.
(This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe:
- roach/hydra
- muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe?
Thx. zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling. Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too. Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile. Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them. Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout). I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp. zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else. zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D. So let me try to summarize all the great inputs. ZvP you can go muta in some scenarios, but not all (e.g. vs stargate builds). You can go roach/hydra in any case, so if I want a similar build/plan for the entire MU, this is the best option. Ultra/bane/viper is a good lategame composition in either case. Question: if I you go roach/hydra should I get any range upgrades? ZvT roach/hydra vs mech adding viper later. Vs bio I suppose ling/bane->infestor/ultra? ZvZ muta rules atm.
I don't get the ranged attack upgrade, I do get the hydra upgrades though.
Also zvz infestors are as good possibly better then wol infestors and I am players not going mutas again cause infestors so good T_T. But luckily I still get mainly muta wars :D
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I dont feel like the infestor is stronger in zvz, at least not vs mutas. The projectile seems very balanced to me vs mutas (you also need to think of the new mutaspeed). As soon as i see an infestor i have time to instantly pull back, you can also do very well regards harassing by splitting up your mutas in tinier groups.
It also helps to get banespeed imo, if he really gets your mutas fungalled and wastes all his energy you can kill his entire eco or/and his infestors with ling bling rolling in to all bases.
He needs fungal to stop the banes, for that he cant just spend everything on those mutas. Its really amazing to me how much attacking advantage you have with zvz speed blings due the creep in your opponents base. Makes it so unbelieveable hard to defend multiprong ling bling muta attacks
I have played like 5-10 games vs decent opponent who didnt play muta too, so i may be wrong. Thats just the experience i got so far
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On December 28 2012 18:22 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:54 blade55555 wrote:On December 27 2012 18:22 Azoryen wrote:On December 27 2012 12:01 blade55555 wrote:On December 27 2012 11:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions.
I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU.
(This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe:
- roach/hydra
- muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe?
Thx. zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling. Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too. Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile. Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them. Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout). I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp. zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else. zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D. So let me try to summarize all the great inputs. ZvP you can go muta in some scenarios, but not all (e.g. vs stargate builds). You can go roach/hydra in any case, so if I want a similar build/plan for the entire MU, this is the best option. Ultra/bane/viper is a good lategame composition in either case. Question: if I you go roach/hydra should I get any range upgrades? ZvT roach/hydra vs mech adding viper later. Vs bio I suppose ling/bane->infestor/ultra? ZvZ muta rules atm.
I allways get 3/3 for my roaches and Hydras in ZvP because i like to have some (especially) Hydras in my composition and Roach hydra is allways a good remax composition if you managed to kill all the high tech Protoss units and he is flooding you with stalkers.
Thats also my way to go vs Skytoss if i didnt manage to kill kim inbefore.
Max on Corrupters and kill off all the Air and colossi (while loosing my corrupters) and then remax with roach hydra while spines hold mach his stalkers.
For ZvT i feel like you really NEED to go muta first, if not you get demolished by Drops with the new medivac.
Its really unlikely to catch a medivac with fungal nowadays, if the Terran player pays attention. Same for Hydras.
If you fear widdow mines, thats what doggy tought me ^^, keep a overseer with your mutas and 10 mutas can kill the mine before it shoots.
The rest about ZvT what you summarized is correct. Muta ling bane into Ultra ling bane viper is my way to go (with the leftover mutas to kill off medivacs and vikings)
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Russian Federation22 Posts
how can zerg beat reapers + mines?
terran just opens with 1 rax reaper + factory and 2nd gas, then he adds 2 more rax, making speed for reapers and +2 CC
so he have like 8-10 speed reapers and some mines, and zerg must build 3-4 roaches per base and 1 spine, or he will lose tons of workers, cuz reapers are really fast + they have heal, but when you build 8 early roaches and don't attack with them, you already economically behind
and finally mines don't let you take 3rd, cuz you can't move out of natural, so there is no way to allin him, and mutas also doesn't work, because if you will go mutas, you should skip roaches and then reapers will kill a lot of workers, and mines can counter muta really easy
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EPT
