On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
mineral walk your drones from 1 base to another (attack his reaper if he gets too close). you will always lose some drones vs this opening but also this opening is very all in. the second your pool pops go for double queen, 1 spine and DRONES. dont build any lings because slow lings are just wasted minerals vs reaper. go for spine queen defense and safe as many drones as possible. its okay to lose some since his expansions will be very delayed.
Im gonna try that, but if your pool is about 90% completed by the time the reaper jumps up to your base, you gonna lose a fucking ton of drones until your first queen pops. I know slow lings are bad vs reaper, i just use them against non proxy reaper openings to camp up cliffs and try to catch, furthermore they buy me the time i need until i have my queen out. A drone costs the same and has less speed on creep as well as lower health compared to a set of lings. So i think building 2-3 sets is a little bit better than just continue building drones, even though i understand what your point.
But like i said, by the time your first lings pop you lose, i dont know, 7-10 drones i would say? Despite mineral walking of course. Assuming you have about 17 drones total it seems quite problematic. Sure you have queen and 2 hatcheries after that, but not the money to quickly boost up your drone count.
Yes, it is very allin from terran, thats why i compared it to 11-11 proxy. But to be honest i think its even a little bit less allin than that, because you dont need to pull a ton of scvs to buffer - you simply dont need any buffer as terran for your reapers. So if you lose 7-10 drones, it would be 7-10 drones vs 14 SCVs (checked the replay from the game i mentioned) + mule. I still feel like it sets you very, very far behind, even if you micro and react properly.
A 10 scout also wouldnt help against that kind of scenario, you get the information too late. Maybe you can 10 scout and then cancle your natural and go for quick gas and roaches to try to punish that reaper style. But as slow as roaches are i dont know if it would really work.
@doggy: Thanks man, your answer (to the ZvT question of mine and a few others) was really helpful to me. I did some testing with Muta vs Mines and it takes 10 Mutas to kill the mine prior to its missle to be fiered so that gives ZvT a entierly new dynamic and i really love it.
I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
I don't get what ure talking about, did you even read my post? and how do you think its generally bad to go mutas? im asking because my zvt winrate is very good so far in hots and i always play mutas. I also did never suggested to sac mutas to kill widow mines, a overseer helps with that ^^ Playing perfect, you trade nothing vs 75-25, not 100-100 to 75-25. Furthermore you neither need to sac eco or tech. it depends when you wanna get your mutas out. i get dbl gas at 4.30, 4 queen, speed into lair, as soon as i take my lair i get another two gases. after full saturation dbl evo and bane nest, after that your third. For sure you can also go for some kind of 3 base muta play. Roaches would be a lot more important here against a lot of helions, but thats all personal preference. You cant just generally say something like that ;-)
I would be interested to know in what league youre playing, the viability of builds depends a lot on that.
and no, you dont need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play. buldingplacement, creep, queens lings and blings will do more than fine if you engage correctly
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
I don't get what ure talking about, did you even read my post? and how do you think its generally bad to go mutas? im asking because my zvt winrate is very good so far in hots and i always play mutas. I also did never suggested to sac mutas to kill widow mines, a overseer helps with that ^^ Playing perfect, you trade nothing vs 75-25, not 100-100 to 75-25. Furthermore you neither need to sac eco or tech. it depends when you wanna get your mutas out. i get dbl gas at 4.30, 4 queen, speed into lair, as soon as i take my lair i get another two gases. after full saturation dbl evo and bane nest, after that your third. For sure you can also go for some kind of 3 base muta play. Roaches would be a lot more important here against a lot of helions, but thats all personal preference. You cant just generally say something like that ;-)
I would be interested to know in what league youre playing, the viability of builds depends a lot on that.
and no, you dont need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play. buldingplacement, creep, queens lings and blings will do more than fine if you engage correctly
you dont need a roach warren if you go 2 base mutas, thats correct. but i described a build on how to get a pretty fast 3rd.
as for your statement on 2 base muta: ofc you sac eco because you delay your 3rd for a long time. in WoL thats not a problem since your mutas always do some damage. with mines in play you dont do any damage even if you keep a slowmoving overseer with your army. so no, mutas arent viable in ZvT on high level. blade and other toplevel HOTS Z share that opinion because mutas are terrible in a straight up fight and if you cant harrass with them there is simply no reason to get them.
On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Against 11-11 you can buy time with your drones, a reaper just laughs at you if you try to do that. It also doesnt help a single bit to keep all workers in your main until you have units
Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
I do have experience (I also play a guy that only does that lol).
I scout for proxies now at 10 supply (vs the guy I know who does it I do 9 supply). Just scout proxy locations around your base then scout him. This is worth it because proxy reaper is actually really, really powerful and I think does enough damage to kill you if you do 15 hatch 16 pool (which I do to).
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
I don't get what ure talking about, did you even read my post? and how do you think its generally bad to go mutas? im asking because my zvt winrate is very good so far in hots and i always play mutas. I also did never suggested to sac mutas to kill widow mines, a overseer helps with that ^^ Playing perfect, you trade nothing vs 75-25, not 100-100 to 75-25. Furthermore you neither need to sac eco or tech. it depends when you wanna get your mutas out. i get dbl gas at 4.30, 4 queen, speed into lair, as soon as i take my lair i get another two gases. after full saturation dbl evo and bane nest, after that your third. For sure you can also go for some kind of 3 base muta play. Roaches would be a lot more important here against a lot of helions, but thats all personal preference. You cant just generally say something like that ;-)
I would be interested to know in what league youre playing, the viability of builds depends a lot on that.
and no, you dont need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play. buldingplacement, creep, queens lings and blings will do more than fine if you engage correctly
you dont need a roach warren if you go 2 base mutas, thats correct. but i described a build on how to get a pretty fast 3rd.
as for your statement on 2 base muta: ofc you sac eco because you delay your 3rd for a long time. in WoL thats not a problem since your mutas always do some damage. with mines in play you dont do any damage even if you keep a slowmoving overseer with your army. so no, mutas arent viable in ZvT on high level. blade and other toplevel HOTS Z share that opinion because mutas are terrible in a straight up fight and if you cant harrass with them there is simply no reason to get them.
Like i said, for sure there are other builds which allow you to have a quicker third, for that you sac tech. With going 2base mutas, its the other way round. Both is viable, its personal preference. You cant just say style x/y/z is not viable just because some other good players mentioned that there are other styles which they prefer. Honestly i dont think that you have any high level experience of yourself, according to your argumentation. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with that. But please stop making claims about viability without even writing your level. I dont wanna be cocky or something, but playstyle differes a lot between leagues. I got all my experience from GM level play at hots, so i guess there has to be some viability.
And again, you havent really read what i posted. Why do you even argue with me then? I posted multiple times that i ALWAYS get a overseer with overlord speed as soon as my lair finishes, which is also just a personal preference. I will have a weaker mutaflock at the beginning, so i wont be able to suprise my opponent and kill a ton of workers. But with the small amount of mutas i will be able to deny mines, helions, banshees and other harassment, as well as getting complete mapcontrol and scouting, which allows me to make correct decisions in midgame on what im going to do next. Thats also an advantage. Furthermore, mutas were always terrible in a straight up fight, but thats not what theyre supposed for. If you have any WoL experience you ought to know that. And - for the third time - you can harass with your mutas for sure, you just need to scout the front with an overseer.
@Blade
Yea, i also think like scouting for proxies is the only way to stop that accordingly. I just dont really like the way it is heading to. For a early dronescout i wanna get full information regards the early game - and for that i sac a ton of early eco. With just scouting for proxies i can make sure i dont die to a rush, but the information i wanted to get from the scout will still be missing (exact opening, gas timings, etc.). I dont know if its intentional from blizzard or not to force zerg into scouting for early proxies every time in zvt. But im pretty sure youre right about that, cant imagine a other way to play hatch first safe atm
Btw, i spoke to a mate of mine, he came to the conclusion that 15p16h (standard zvp opening) would may be pretty good and save against proxy reaper. Regarding eco it also doesnt set you behind. I dunno, but 15h15p like in WoL doesnt seem viable anymore the way it was
So far im really unimpressed with the new zerg units in hots, with the only exception being vipers against mech zvt (until vikings come out). What are some good ways to incorporate swarm host and viper in zvp and zvt? To me, ZvP seems like it's actually worse to try the new units..
15 hatch 16 pool is quiet a bit better then 15 pool just in regards you get double queen, faster natural, etc. I do not see proxy reaper being standard because if it were, all a zerg player has to do is scout and then they will be ahead.
Will it be something mixed in? Sure, but I don't think it will force zergs to 15 pool as a standard.
Does anyone have a high level replay that involves pulling ultras or other of your own units into the opponents base? I didn't realize until recently that one can pull friendly units with the viper. :-P a pm would be nice.
On December 25 2012 10:01 KimJongChill wrote: So far im really unimpressed with the new zerg units in hots, with the only exception being vipers against mech zvt (until vikings come out). What are some good ways to incorporate swarm host and viper in zvp and zvt? To me, ZvP seems like it's actually worse to try the new units..
Going speedling roach with swarmhosts and a few spines in ZvP when you go fast 3rd vs Protoss who goes forge FE and then you expect immortal sentry all in, or any all in , swarmhosts do good vs all , all ins, Swarmhost is like zergs anti all in unit IMO.
On December 25 2012 10:14 blade55555 wrote: I disagree Doggy.
15 hatch 16 pool is quiet a bit better then 15 pool just in regards you get double queen, faster natural, etc. I do not see proxy reaper being standard because if it were, all a zerg player has to do is scout and then they will be ahead.
Will it be something mixed in? Sure, but I don't think it will force zergs to 15 pool as a standard.
yea youre right, i think i'll just scout for proxies if i think my opponent may goes for that. Btw was it also the barcode guy u played who did that reaper build? he does that every game^^
On December 25 2012 10:14 blade55555 wrote: I disagree Doggy.
15 hatch 16 pool is quiet a bit better then 15 pool just in regards you get double queen, faster natural, etc. I do not see proxy reaper being standard because if it were, all a zerg player has to do is scout and then they will be ahead.
Will it be something mixed in? Sure, but I don't think it will force zergs to 15 pool as a standard.
yea youre right, i think i'll just scout for proxies if i think my opponent may goes for that. Btw was it also the barcode guy u played who did that reaper build? he does that every game^^
Yes he does that or tries to every game. I lost to it the first game, I scout every game after and he pretty much leaves within 7 minutes xD.
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
EPT
