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On December 18 2012 12:31 tzui wrote:
i wish units in patrol mode would not get selected, then you can patrol at watchtowers and vs drops in your mineral line and use F2 instead of str-1
I guess, that would be too complicated to be newbie friendly. I understand the F2 key, like the 5-slot-queue (instead of just a 2-slot queue) in production buildings, as well as the mouse-clickable command card (instead the force of using the hotkey) as a less-than-optimal way to play by design just to keep it simple for a beginner. I guess that not everyone will ever learn hotkeys or even group hotkeys, because he has no real ambition to compete.
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On December 17 2012 17:24 Azoryen wrote:
Blizzard already got rid of ramp blocks by introducing unbuildable plates.
I believe the next step is to do something about natural blocks, and I have a small suggestion that could take care of that:
1) place unbuildable rocks at naturals
2) make those unbuildable rocks removable when you put down a CC/nexus/hatch (assume they get burried under the the structure).
SC2 has become a game where Fast Expands are the standard openings for every race in every MU. Imo, this makes the natural almost a right the players have that shouldn't be so easily denied/delayed.
Is that really necessary? I think ramp blocks were a bit different because it allows the opponent to build whatever they want in your natural (usually cannons or bunkers) making it hard to break down the wall without taking a stupid amount of damage while doing so.
Natural blocking doesn't do this, it just delays your expansion a small amount or forces you to expand somewhere else, which is usually a very good option (which may even put a protoss behind if they don't cancel the pylon since it doesn't really hinder you?) since fast thirds are so common.
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How do you guys deal with carrier-tempest lategame in ZvP? I have a feeling once they are maxed on 3/3 carriers with some tempest nothing can face it.
Also are mutas really bad in ZvP now? I played against someone who went reactive phoenix, he just made 5 and I could never touch him with the mutas, he just took potshots with the new range. Also recalled to defend between nexuses.
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So here is one for you all to scratch your head, Terran opens mech, and after massing a few thors and tanks, goes mass widow mine, viking BC. What on earth do you make against that.
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On December 19 2012 04:18 phrenzy wrote:
So here is one for you all to scratch your head, Terran opens mech, and after massing a few thors and tanks, goes mass widow mine, viking BC. What on earth do you make against that.
I have a similar question. My opponent went for bio instead but with an absurd number of widow mine. I dont know what to do against that mass widow mine. Zerglings just evaporate and Ultralisks didn't last long after that.
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I agree it the problem interchangeable
Is there a unit tester for HotS yet because i dont know how to engage widow mines cost effectively. It takes up so much micro and yet the terran that i play against spilt them out 4 at a time and have no worries even if im on 6 bases and they are on 3 and i have superior upgrades.
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On December 19 2012 04:18 phrenzy wrote:
So here is one for you all to scratch your head, Terran opens mech, and after massing a few thors and tanks, goes mass widow mine, viking BC. What on earth do you make against that.
A replay would be helpful for a specific game like this one.
Edit to avoid double post:
What are some ways to try to get an edge in an even muta vs muta war? I hate feeling like my opponent has to make a mistake for me to get ahead. Is it worth it to split into two groups if you aren't trying to engage anyway?
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In ZvT what is everyone's thoughts on the best way of taking a fast 3rd on Howling Peak. Most other maps the 6 queen opening I brought over from wings works pretty well. It just feels really really unsafe on Howling Peak with the multiple pathes to your base and the fairly long distance of the third.
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I make lings and kill the rocks then take third.
Can someone tell me what is you main composition against Bio. I just got rolled twice one just went pure marine, marauder, medivac and the other marine tank. I got upgrades for lings and banes all the way to 3/3 and just got rolled over by medivac super energy.
The one who went pure MMM i asked him how many bases, he said 3, i was on 5.
I used to use infestors about after the most recent balance change they still dont work, only for big armies(which dont die to fungal).
So i ask what do you go, because everytime i go muta, widow mines kill me and every time i go viper, either marines/marauder kills me, if they go mech then vikings get me.
I just havent got a clue anymore because its impossible for me at least to harrass with mutas, turrets and widows get me everytime.
SirPsycho: Sorry i cant find it, too many games, im sure it will come up again though.
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^^^^ totally agreeded with the above post. what do you do against the late game compisiton of mmm + tank/widowmine.
Your lings honestly die instantly. and it is nearly impossible to keep up with binding cloud with terran production. I just lost 5 Base to 3 Base to this...
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On December 21 2012 16:02 RimJaynor wrote:
^^^^ totally agreeded with the above post. what do you do against the late game compisiton of mmm + tank/widowmine.
Your lings honestly die instantly. and it is nearly impossible to keep up with binding cloud with terran production. I just lost 5 Base to 3 Base to this...
In my experience its quite important to have some mutas during the midgame to kill the medivacs off, i rather keep my mutas alive then doing a lot of harassdmg with them, the new dropship speed ability is just so strong with just ground based defense. After that i transition into fast ultralisks while i stay alive on muta ling bling with ~3infestors. I feel like infestors are a lot better against this kind of terran army then vipers. If you can hold him in place your ultras will absolutely shred them, and a 2-2 timing wont kill you with this kind of defense when ure on creep. You could check out the replays vs NSHGolem in my replay pack if youre interested
BTW regards the widow mines, i dont feel like theyre a huge deal at all. I tend to get overlord speed and an overseer with my mutas, as soon as you have i think 11 (?) you can kill a mine before it can shoot, which helps you a lot regards harassing.
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BTW regards the widow mines, i dont feel like theyre a huge deal at all. I tend to get overlord speed and an overseer with my mutas, as soon as you have i think 11 (?) you can kill a mine before it can shoot, which helps you a lot regards harassing.
WOW that is amazing to know! Thanks man!
I too strugle with Bio in Mid and Lategame. I find the time before my Ultras spawn incredibly hard to survive and generally Medivacs seem way to strong (i cant even really kill them off with mutas because of the speed ability ...)
I am really feeling we need some kind of reliable AoE in form of a UNIT not a spellcaster, but i doubt enything will change in the beta enymore (eccept for balance ofc)
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On December 23 2012 22:51 gCgCrypto wrote:Show nested quote +BTW regards the widow mines, i dont feel like theyre a huge deal at all. I tend to get overlord speed and an overseer with my mutas, as soon as you have i think 11 (?) you can kill a mine before it can shoot, which helps you a lot regards harassing. WOW that is amazing to know! Thanks man! I too strugle with Bio in Mid and Lategame. I find the time before my Ultras spawn incredibly hard to survive and generally Medivacs seem way to strong (i cant even really kill them off with mutas because of the speed ability ...) I am really feeling we need some kind of reliable AoE in form of a UNIT not a spellcaster, but i doubt enything will change in the beta enymore (eccept for balance ofc)
Np, but i really dont think we need another unit to deal with that. With good mapcontrol (e.g. just by taking towers) you should notice every mine that comes across your way. If you know its there its no problem at all, at the moment (i hope thats right) you cant stop the attack from the mine. Means, you can send one Unit to activate it and then you have 40 seconds (?) to kill it off. If you go for an attack you just need to scout the front with an overseer. You can also use the overseer to try to sneak some changelings in, which is really huge. I also cant mention enough how important it is to get Overseer + Ovi speed in the midgame. It doesnt just save you completly from mines, it helps you get a lot more control on the map, more scouting, delay expansions via creep and not all your well positioned overlords will die to 1 viking which clears the line for drops.
And if you go for an early bust, you do it the same way as in zvz: send single zerglings to activate mines, in zvz you need that against banelings too if youre going up a ramp
No matter what build i do regards zvt, i always start with ovispeed and overseer once my lair finishes. Its quite a investment, not just for killing mines tho. It allows you to get super quick scouting all game long (which is even a bit more important than it is in WoL imo), furthermore you get enough energy to contaminate at a very crucial timing. In almost all cases i was able to delay a keyupgrade, which gives you one full larva inject more time to react to a timing push.
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How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
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On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote:
How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
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hey guys. is there some way to deal with gateway openings in ZvP then he goes stargate into oracle? 1 stalker denies all scouting so i never know which tech he is going for and since 4 oracles kill queens and spores so fast right now i dont see how to defend this. i cant just blindly build 4 spores per base because you just die to robo and TC play. is oracle just too strong vs non-light right now and we have to wait for a fix or is there some way to deal with it in a standard way?
and another problem ZvP. i just dont see a way to deal with airtoss. like imo there is no way to beat an airtoss army with HT/archon support (and he doesnt need many HT or archons). is that also just bad play from my side or is it just OP right now? tried every comp but everything sucks more (hydras...funny how retardedly bad they are) or less (corruptor + infestor).
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On December 24 2012 20:17 Decendos wrote:
hey guys. is there some way to deal with gateway openings in ZvP then he goes stargate into oracle? 1 stalker denies all scouting so i never know which tech he is going for and since 4 oracles kill queens and spores so fast right now i dont see how to defend this. i cant just blindly build 4 spores per base because you just die to robo and TC play. is oracle just too strong vs non-light right now and we have to wait for a fix or is there some way to deal with it in a standard way?
and another problem ZvP. i just dont see a way to deal with airtoss. like imo there is no way to beat an airtoss army with HT/archon support (and he doesnt need many HT or archons). is that also just bad play from my side or is it just OP right now? tried every comp but everything sucks more (hydras...funny how retardedly bad they are) or less (corruptor + infestor).
I feel like you have to be very aggressive versus Protoss air builds. If you let them build 200/200 carrier/tempest army of course you lose the game because Zerg doesn't have anythign which can beat this straight up. I've never lost to skytoss but I've also never faced a protoss who managed to get out a good sky army so probably my advice isn't very helpful. So what I do is just normal 3hatch opener into double upgraded Roach/Hydra and fast tech to Vipers. If I see the protoss goes for some weird double stargate play I just get more hydras and attack quite fast so he has to use his gas for other units like sentrys to be able to stay alive. But as I've said: I've only faced stargate builds 2 or 3 times and the protoss never was able to build up a really strong air army.
Aside from this I have a question for ZvT: Do you go Roach/Hydra/Viper against every strategy? Or only versus Mech? I feel like it's pretty hard to play it versus Bio or Marine/Tank. I've tried to go Ling/Bling/Muta instead versus this which worked out nicely but I feel only because the Terran didn't set up widow mines to defend versus the mutas or adding in some hellbats.
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On December 24 2012 13:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote:
How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense. Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Against 11-11 you can buy time with your drones, a reaper just laughs at you if you try to do that. It also doesnt help a single bit to keep all workers in your main until you have units
Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
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On December 24 2012 21:07 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:24 blade55555 wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote:
How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense. Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not. I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds. In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered. Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
mineral walk your drones from 1 base to another (attack his reaper if he gets too close). you will always lose some drones vs this opening but also this opening is very all in. the second your pool pops go for double queen, 1 spine and DRONES. dont build any lings because slow lings are just wasted minerals vs reaper. go for spine queen defense and safe as many drones as possible. its okay to lose some since his expansions will be very delayed.
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On December 24 2012 20:41 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 20:17 Decendos wrote:
hey guys. is there some way to deal with gateway openings in ZvP then he goes stargate into oracle? 1 stalker denies all scouting so i never know which tech he is going for and since 4 oracles kill queens and spores so fast right now i dont see how to defend this. i cant just blindly build 4 spores per base because you just die to robo and TC play. is oracle just too strong vs non-light right now and we have to wait for a fix or is there some way to deal with it in a standard way?
and another problem ZvP. i just dont see a way to deal with airtoss. like imo there is no way to beat an airtoss army with HT/archon support (and he doesnt need many HT or archons). is that also just bad play from my side or is it just OP right now? tried every comp but everything sucks more (hydras...funny how retardedly bad they are) or less (corruptor + infestor). I feel like you have to be very aggressive versus Protoss air builds. If you let them build 200/200 carrier/tempest army of course you lose the game because Zerg doesn't have anythign which can beat this straight up. I've never lost to skytoss but I've also never faced a protoss who managed to get out a good sky army so probably my advice isn't very helpful. So what I do is just normal 3hatch opener into double upgraded Roach/Hydra and fast tech to Vipers. If I see the protoss goes for some weird double stargate play I just get more hydras and attack quite fast so he has to use his gas for other units like sentrys to be able to stay alive. But as I've said: I've only faced stargate builds 2 or 3 times and the protoss never was able to build up a really strong air army.
I had some similiar problems with ZvP vs air too. I couldnt bust them, because they stayed very very defensively with tons of cannons on three bases, until they have their critical mass.
In the game im mentioning, i had DOUBLE the gas income for almost all game, i had double spire with 2-3 upgrades, maxed ground upgrades as well as a couple of Vipers and a bank to remax at least twice.
I couldnt NEARLY kill his army, it felt invincible. My army did consist mainly out of curropters with a bounch of hydras and vipers. You also cant go for basetrade situations because of the MScore.
After thinking about that situation a few times, i came to the conclusion that you either gotta bust before its that far (which is allin and quite of a gamble), or you probably need to go very infestor heavy combined with curropters. Hydras just die way too fast and have too small range.
In theory i think now that curropter infestor would be the best way to deal with that army. Fungal allows you to kill tons of interceptors if their is a huge amount of carriers, furthermore you either force protoss to split his army up (which is nice against fungal), this gives you the opportunity to fungal one part of the army and kill the other one off with your curropters whichout taking too much damage. The other way for protoss would be to keep his air army together (which is nice against non-infestor based armies) which allows you to completly kill them with chainfungals.
Thats just theory tho, i have just played 3 times against a decent air toss so far
I dont think that Z has any other choice than cutting of a part of the P army with fungals and engage the other one atm, the battle where i had curropter hydra viper was not even close, despite dbl gas income.
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EPT
