EPTIf he DOES move out, you simply basetrade him. Your army, his base. Mutas kill stuff really really fast, so does zerglings. You will most of the time win a basetrade if you react fast enough and dont loose your army while moving across the map.
The (HotS) Zerg Help Me Thread Beta - Page 13
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tehcaekftw
Denmark138 Posts
If he DOES move out, you simply basetrade him. Your army, his base. Mutas kill stuff really really fast, so does zerglings. You will most of the time win a basetrade if you react fast enough and dont loose your army while moving across the map. | ||
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RedZ
16 Posts
On January 07 2013 23:53 MuffinCookie wrote: I've heard of this 3-4 queen style before, I think from Wings of the Liberty too. What are the timings for the 3rd and 4th queen? Do you just make them right after the 1st and 2nd queens? What I have been doing so far is just a 14hatch/15pool with two queens almost immediately after the pool pops (preferably producing simultaneously). And then I just wing it. Which is terrible, because it works in the Bronze League. My placement matches went pretty badly.  And for ZvP, I played against someone who didn't do the usual FFE, and went for a Mothership Core/Gateway push which basically killed me. In this case, I wouldn't take a third, right? Thanks. *Edit: I have one more question. I really like using the Swarm Host, it seems to just kill things really well. Even if it feels like I have a smaller/weaker army, everything on the ground just dies to Locusts. What goes well with Swarm Hosts? Thanks again. Yes, 3rd and 4th queen almost immediatly after your first two pop. 15hatch/16pool is a bit better though since you will be able to start your first two queens at the same time and if they open gate expand or basically anything except FFE, you need to send an overlord in their base at 5:30 to try and see their tech (dark shrine, stargate, a shit ton of warp gates). If that happens, no third until they expand re: swarm hosts - I dont use swarm hosts, but i imagine corruptors and/or hydralisks as they will cover the air while swarm hosts handle the ground | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
From what I read, Roach/Hydra/Viper for ZvT and Muta/Ling/Bane for ZvZ? Is that correct? What about ZvP? Where can I find good vods/reps? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 09 2013 08:58 raybasto wrote: I'm starting to get into HotS. What are the standard strategies and unit compositions for each match up? From what I read, Roach/Hydra/Viper for ZvT and Muta/Ling/Bane for ZvZ? Is that correct? What about ZvP? Where can I find good vods/reps? Um roach/hydra/viper is good vs mech not good vs bio zvt. Not sure but I think the best composition late game zvt that isn't bl/corr/infestor is ultra/ling/bane/viper/infestor. I would watch idra vods and you will see what he does in all the match ups so far. zvz is muta for the most part. zvp is roach/hydra/viper, muta/ling/bane - ultra. | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
On January 09 2013 09:08 blade55555 wrote: Um roach/hydra/viper is good vs mech not good vs bio zvt. Not sure but I think the best composition late game zvt that isn't bl/corr/infestor is ultra/ling/bane/viper/infestor. I would watch idra vods and you will see what he does in all the match ups so far. zvz is muta for the most part. zvp is roach/hydra/viper, muta/ling/bane - ultra. So still Ling/Bane/Infestor midgame into Broodlord/Infestor/Ling/Bane late game ZvT? How is ZvZ late game? Just upgraded Muta/Ling/Bane? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 09 2013 10:21 raybasto wrote: So still Ling/Bane/Infestor midgame into Broodlord/Infestor/Ling/Bane late game ZvT? How is ZvZ late game? Just upgraded Muta/Ling/Bane? um zvt it might be the best not sure I go fast ultra with ling/bane/ultra/infestor/viper. But that's a lot harder to use then bl/corr/infestor so not sure. I honestly have no idea if terran can beat bl/corr/infestor or not in hots. zvz late game its only muta if both players go muta. | ||
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ghost_face
Australia33 Posts
I start building roaches once I'm saturated on 2 bases. 2-3 spores at each base ~8 minutes. I throw down a nydus before I get infesters. When they start harassing with mutas, I drop a nydus worm near their base (usually in their third) and I'm almost always able to do some nice damage, maybe even snipe their natural if they invested too much in mutas. I also drop a third while I'm doing this. The nydus removes a lot of the mutas map control, and the roaches will usually be able to do more damage then the mutas will. (Edit: If you have burrow you can even snipe their spire or spawning pool or roach warren if they forget detection) Usually they will have some defenses so the roaches won't be enough to win, so I just start getting some infestors (4-6) and then start getting hydras. Once the infestors are out you are in a very good position. They should be behind economically (can snipe third with nydus if they try to take it) and infestors are no where near as bad against mutas in HoTs as people are making them out to be (once you get the timing down). Anyone else refusing to go muta vs muta and getting away with it at a higher level? Or is this only working because I'm in gold? | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 09 2013 11:22 ghost_face wrote: I am only in gold league (in hots) but I have been doing fine in ZvZ without going muta (I think I'm 7 wins 2 losses). I start building roaches once I'm saturated on 2 bases. 2-3 spores at each base ~8 minutes. I throw down a nydus before I get infesters. When they start harassing with mutas, I drop a nydus worm near their base (usually in their third) and I'm almost always able to do some nice damage, maybe even snipe their natural if they invested too much in mutas. I also drop a third while I'm doing this. The nydus removes a lot of the mutas map control, and the roaches will usually be able to do more damage then the mutas will. (Edit: If you have burrow you can even snipe their spire or spawning pool or roach warren if they forget detection) Usually they will have some defenses so the roaches won't be enough to win, so I just start getting some infestors (4-6) and then start getting hydras. Once the infestors are out you are in a very good position. They should be behind economically (can snipe third with nydus if they try to take it) and infestors are no where near as bad against mutas in HoTs as people are making them out to be (once you get the timing down). Anyone else refusing to go muta vs muta and getting away with it at a higher level? Or is this only working because I'm in gold? that third should never go up agaisnt a competent muta player until you have hydras or infesters to babysit it and should have there third up around the time the mutas start popping | ||
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ghost_face
Australia33 Posts
On January 09 2013 13:27 Forikorder wrote: that third should never go up agaisnt a competent muta player until you have hydras or infesters to babysit it and should have there third up around the time the mutas start popping What usually happens is that I nydus into their third when their mutas hit my base, so I can force a cancel on the third/snipe it and then start to damage the nat. The mutas may be able to delay my third, you're right, but it depends on whether they want to bring them back to defend or not. The lack of mid game map control is definitely the biggest weakness. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 09 2013 17:55 ghost_face wrote: What usually happens is that I nydus into their third when their mutas hit my base, so I can force a cancel on the third/snipe it and then start to damage the nat. The mutas may be able to delay my third, you're right, but it depends on whether they want to bring them back to defend or not. The lack of mid game map control is definitely the biggest weakness. your relying on them not noticing the nydus, if they do you just lose immediately also yhey should have cleaned up any OLs near the third | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On January 07 2013 23:53 MuffinCookie wrote: I've heard of this 3-4 queen style before, I think from Wings of the Liberty too. What are the timings for the 3rd and 4th queen? Do you just make them right after the 1st and 2nd queens? What I have been doing so far is just a 14hatch/15pool with two queens almost immediately after the pool pops (preferably producing simultaneously). And then I just wing it. Which is terrible, because it works in the Bronze League. My placement matches went pretty badly. And for ZvP, I played against someone who didn't do the usual FFE, and went for a Mothership Core/Gateway push which basically killed me. In this case, I wouldn't take a third, right? Thanks. *Edit: I have one more question. I really like using the Swarm Host, it seems to just kill things really well. Even if it feels like I have a smaller/weaker army, everything on the ground just dies to Locusts. What goes well with Swarm Hosts? Thanks again. 4 queen build is basically an economic hatch first (typically a 15h/16p). Then build two queens as soon as your pool finishes. Build two more queens immediately after the first 2 finish. Finally you take either double gas at 30ish supply or 3-4 gas at 40ish supply. | ||
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Mephtral
Sweden60 Posts
I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas. I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push. I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro. I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again. Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents.. So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper? Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 10 2013 01:09 Mephtral wrote: Ok so.. I'm a "midmaster" Zerg (WOL), and i simply cannot deal with these new reapers once they commit to them(more than 3-4) I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas. I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push. I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro. I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again. Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents.. So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper? Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me. What about making roachs and instead of walking across the map just leave them near your mineral lines to kill the reapers....? | ||
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Mephtral
Sweden60 Posts
On January 10 2013 01:13 Forikorder wrote: What about making roachs and instead of walking across the map just leave them near your mineral lines to kill the reapers....? Sorry should've mentioned why i dont do that; it requires quite a few roaches to hold off mass reapers, because of how much more mobility they have For example on cloud kingdom i cant defend my main and my natural with roaches unless i make an actual army, because its impossible to position myself above cliffs to catch him or gain a advantage over him, because he can see up cliffs and got same range(actually 0,5 more someone told me, dont know if it matters tho) + shoots and heals faster. And sure it's true i could do something like, take double gas and go mass roach, and THEN drone.. but during that he still got a good eco behind it if he just makes a 2nd cc by delaying 1 round of reapers during his harass. And as i said, he already got techlabs, so if he wants to do a marauder heavy push when he sees i'm commiting to roaches, he can easily do so, so i want to avoid that if at all possible /Edit: I'm not saying it wont work, i'll continue trying roaches to defend, and combine it with better building placement and overall better army control, but i would personally prefer not to rely on roaches vs a terran with 3+ techlabs when i i'm barely on 2 base eco. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 10 2013 01:26 Mephtral wrote: Sorry should've mentioned why i dont do that; it requires quite a few roaches to hold off mass reapers, because of how much more mobility they have For example on cloud kingdom i cant defend my main and my natural with roaches unless i make an actual army, because its impossible to position myself above cliffs to catch him or gain a advantage over him, because he can see up cliffs and got same range(actually 0,5 more someone told me, dont know if it matters tho) + shoots and heals faster. And sure it's true i could do something like, take double gas and go mass roach, and THEN drone.. but during that he still got a good eco behind it if he just makes a 2nd cc by delaying 1 round of reapers during his harass. And as i said, he already got techlabs, so if he wants to do a marauder heavy push when he sees i'm commiting to roaches, he can easily do so, so i want to avoid that if at all possible you dont need mass reapers just enough to zone him out of the mineral line marauder pushs are easy enough to hold with spine/ling/roach it may suck having to go so far to defend reapers but theres no other way really im prettty sure blizz said reaper nerfs incoming to just wait it out i guess | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On January 10 2013 01:26 Mephtral wrote: Sorry should've mentioned why i dont do that; it requires quite a few roaches to hold off mass reapers, because of how much more mobility they have For example on cloud kingdom i cant defend my main and my natural with roaches unless i make an actual army, because its impossible to position myself above cliffs to catch him or gain a advantage over him, because he can see up cliffs and got same range(actually 0,5 more someone told me, dont know if it matters tho) + shoots and heals faster. And sure it's true i could do something like, take double gas and go mass roach, and THEN drone.. but during that he still got a good eco behind it if he just makes a 2nd cc by delaying 1 round of reapers during his harass. And as i said, he already got techlabs, so if he wants to do a marauder heavy push when he sees i'm commiting to roaches, he can easily do so, so i want to avoid that if at all possible /Edit: I'm not saying it wont work, i'll continue trying roaches to defend, and combine it with better building placement and overall better army control, but i would personally prefer not to rely on roaches vs a terran with 3+ techlabs when i i'm barely on 2 base eco. Earlier gas is better when you see a 13 gas from a T player. A 15 pool 17 gas would be quite strong. From there you'd just follow Stephano's 7-8 roach opening off 2 bases (6-7 min warren). THese roaches are used defensively against those incoming reapers. The one big advantage Z has against reapers is overlords. At that point you will have enough to position along vulnerable cliffs to see reapers coming from a mile away. This makes roach positioning alot easier which culminates to 0 losses. Try to fight on creep since roaches move faster than reapers and focus fire (4 to 1 shot 1). Each reaper is costly to the terran. Also, try transitioning to 2 base muta with this build. If they 3-4 rax reaper, they can only pump so many marines and the mutas could usually 1) End the game if he over commits to reapers, go for banshee tech. 2) Forces more raxes, turrets and turtling to occur. For result 2, this is where the zerg shines, because of the constant muta threat, u can keep harassing them and keep T contained to 2 bases, while you freely DOUBLE expand, with enough resources to build a medium sized ling/bling army and transition to hive as your 4th is saturated properly. Just don't lose those mutas early on and slowly replace them as your upgrades and eco becomes strong (the ideal comp i'd go for is typically ultra/viper and infestor). That should end the game with good flanks in place or even an attack move if the T has too many rines. This is a good day to be a zerg my friend. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
On December 29 2012 06:28 Atthasit wrote: Speaking of the devil, has anyone figured a legit way to use swarm hosts yet? ZvP - Host/Corruptor/Roach/Overseer/Infestor seems like a good composition. Heavy on SH, infestors for support, corruptors to kill observers | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL? | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure? What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL? only if they FFE | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure? What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL? Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate). | ||
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