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On January 17 2013 21:30 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 17:59 Rallerbabz wrote:On January 17 2013 17:38 doggy wrote:On January 11 2013 20:04 blade55555 wrote:On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote:
How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure?
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL? Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate). Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case. I don't know man. I feel like Zerg has to play greedy and get a relative early fourth, thus I can't effort to delay my third. The reason why I think this, is that Protoss is being so damn greedy in hots - they tend to take their third extremely early - earlier than you have time to get hydras out, which means if they have the mothershipcore, a VR and some sentries, you can't deny his third with roaches. What's your solution on this? Thats exactly what i was refering to :-) vs 3 base P/T i feel like i need to get asap 10 gases for not getting behind. That being said i cannot afford a early gas just because protoss opened gateway instead of forge. Its the same in zvt, i dont get early gases against gas builds of terran either, simply because i need to play as much on the edge as humanly possible to not get behind. In hots i feel like zerg has to play even more greedy than in wol. still, against gateway builds u cant get ur third before 6mins safely, at least in the most of situations. I do have more problems in ZvT though regards not getting behind. If a terran opens 1 rax expand into 4min dbl gas, i cannot scout what hes doing (heavy aggression or just slight aggression into early third). The scout will just get denied by 1-3 marines patrolling. Which means i have to prepair for the hardest pressure which can come at me (mostly heavy helion banshee commitment or/and widow mines). That leads to situations where i start my third when the one of my opponent is already done. I couldnt figure out so far what i need to mix up to change that
Most 2 base Terran attacks come around 10 minutes, so you're pretty much free to take your third and drone up until around 8:30 ~9:00 minutes.
But if you don't feel comfortable, you could stay on 2 base, get faster lair, and check with your overseer what he's doing. If you are indeed still on 2 base, 2 base push from a Terran should be real easy to deal with.
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I didnt mean pushes, at 10 minute mark im more than comfortable holding everything when i dont take dmg before. I meant heavy harass which hits u at around 8min mark or even shortly before. i might should post some reps too explain my difficulties better, its quite hard to find the right words
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I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
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On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote:
I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
I think people are too quick to criticize what blizzard is doing. Some things just take time to develop. Maybe if player x does y build, then z build can kill it. At the moment there are not enough consistent builds to be able to determine things. Each player is kinda doing his/her own thing and that is why sometimes it is hard to adjust.
Personally in ZvP i go ling/hydra (some roaches) if they open stargate and pressure with that and get a spire behind it. If they over prepare for the spire by making loads of pheonix then I just continue on with ling/hydra and maybe add some corrupters and transition into late game. However if they go robo or open robo then I like going mutas. Again this is how I play and what works for me might now work for you but currently I have roughly 65~70% winrate vs Protoss at GM level.
Against Terran I have had much success with ling/bane/muta into ultra/infestor/viper/bane. I think mutas are very useful to stop and more importantly discourage drop play. If facing widow mines, getting ovie speed and using a speed overlord with a pack of mutas is helpful (ie. run in a muta to tank the widow shot, then kill it with the rest of the mutas while sending the injured muta home until it regens). Speed overlords are also useful since it takes 2 widow mines (150/50) which is 4 supply worth to take out a no supply (100/0) unit. Sending in a group of speed ovies ahead of your army will help tank the widow mine shots. Late game I believe zerg is at an advantage since ultras are much better.
ZvZ is very versatile I think nowadays. Most people have trouble defending mass muta which is why they tend to go mutas themselves, however it is not impossible to hold. Also +1 ling infestors are strong currently. With games I have played it seems that it is possible to play ZvZ in 3 ways. Old roach/infestor/hydra, ling/infestor/ultra, and mass muta. This seems to give more flexibility to the match up where in my opinion roach>ling>muta>roach. By greater than I just mean that with the games I have played and seen that the person that counters the other persons build is slightly ahead or has an easier time. This could also make scouting more important and seeing clues with what their composition in the mid and late game will be.
Obviously this is all my opinion so if any of you disagree then obviously you are eligible to have your own opinion on things. However I think that we as a community are too quick to criticize some things. If you could travel back in time to early WoL and play somebody that was slightly better then you, you would still probably win since your understanding of the game is greater, and that's what I think the greatest problem in HotS is. It is too short of time to get used to how to play with patches coming every 2 weeks or so and with each player having their own style some builds that might be terrible in 2 years time will beat you now since we do not know how to react properly.
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On January 18 2013 04:52 LonelyClock wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote:
I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it. I think people are too quick to criticize what blizzard is doing. Some things just take time to develop. Maybe if player x does y build, then z build can kill it. At the moment there are not enough consistent builds to be able to determine things. Each player is kinda doing his/her own thing and that is why sometimes it is hard to adjust. Personally in ZvP i go ling/hydra (some roaches) if they open stargate and pressure with that and get a spire behind it. If they over prepare for the spire by making loads of pheonix then I just continue on with ling/hydra and maybe add some corrupters and transition into late game. However if they go robo or open robo then I like going mutas. Again this is how I play and what works for me might now work for you but currently I have roughly 65~70% winrate vs Protoss at GM level. Against Terran I have had much success with ling/bane/muta into ultra/infestor/viper/bane. I think mutas are very useful to stop and more importantly discourage drop play. If facing widow mines, getting ovie speed and using a speed overlord with a pack of mutas is helpful (ie. run in a muta to tank the widow shot, then kill it with the rest of the mutas while sending the injured muta home until it regens). Speed overlords are also useful since it takes 2 widow mines (150/50) which is 4 supply worth to take out a no supply (100/0) unit. Sending in a group of speed ovies ahead of your army will help tank the widow mine shots. Late game I believe zerg is at an advantage since ultras are much better. ZvZ is very versatile I think nowadays. Most people have trouble defending mass muta which is why they tend to go mutas themselves, however it is not impossible to hold. Also +1 ling infestors are strong currently. With games I have played it seems that it is possible to play ZvZ in 3 ways. Old roach/infestor/hydra, ling/infestor/ultra, and mass muta. This seems to give more flexibility to the match up where in my opinion roach>ling>muta>roach. By greater than I just mean that with the games I have played and seen that the person that counters the other persons build is slightly ahead or has an easier time. This could also make scouting more important and seeing clues with what their composition in the mid and late game will be. Obviously this is all my opinion so if any of you disagree then obviously you are eligible to have your own opinion on things. However I think that we as a community are too quick to criticize some things. If you could travel back in time to early WoL and play somebody that was slightly better then you, you would still probably win since your understanding of the game is greater, and that's what I think the greatest problem in HotS is. It is too short of time to get used to how to play with patches coming every 2 weeks or so and with each player having their own style some builds that might be terrible in 2 years time will beat you now since we do not know how to react properly.
I have very similiar experiences and ideas, respect sir.
VS toss I think that 3 base Hydra ling Corruptor timing attacks are deadly vs protoss, if he goes old collosus route just snipe collosi(once u run out of lings, u retreat) and go back, expand and tech to BL's or vipers. If he goes air heavy style just go allin with this composition and keep sending waves of lings (3 base + macro hatch, 4th on the way) to tank cannons and ground army while corruptors and hydras deal with air somewhat well. Corruptor hydra seems like the best things that currently has zerg vs toss air. In this timing toss won't have storms yet so hydras will still deal huge dmg while corruptors are good meatshield + corruption + not that bad damage + are more mobile. Once you let toss build huge deatbhall then you are probably fucked but let's hope blizz will fix this somehow. (i predict voidray nerf)
The key is to balance composition correctly vs what u face
Vs Terran i think 3 base muta ling bane with big emphasis on creep spread and flanking(this!) basically makes your economy and bases untouchable if you macro and engage correctly. Then big switch to ultra infestor bane ling (vipers are okay too i guess) once you have your 5 bases established. The key here is to make just 8-12 mutas and just deny drops and gain total map control and focus on lings and banelings and teching and ecoing. Pretty much old style of WoL but polished; flanking, ovie speed (gain full map vision, all ovies spreaded) to snipe mines, burrow mines yourself, creep spread etc. Mutas dont even need to deal huge damage, they just are good map control tool
Vs zerg i basically totally agree. In current metagame mass +1+1 lings are especially powerful
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On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote:
I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
Zerg isn't unplayable in hots. Luckily most protoss players aren't competent or are very kind not go do mass void rays. In my high GM level I play tosses who add in void rays, but they don't add in like a ton or go full out. But yeah I agree with you if the toss knows how to turtle while getting his mass air army you can't win it's over if your aggression doesn't break him at all.
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
zvz is awesome cause muta vs muta is actually fun unlike the mass infestor play that is used 99.9% of the time in WoL.
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zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
Have u ever played late game vs a terran turtling with mass siege tank / widow mines / vikings/ a few thors behind his planetaries + turrets, cutting the map in half (what mech did in old days on maps like shakuras)
That was the most frustrating 1 hour long game vs terran I've had which I lost... and yes this is in GM. I got every upgrade there is in the game, I guess I maxed on fully upgraded t3 armies like 4 times and ended up losing. Tried max ultra / ling / queen, then broods / corruptors / queens / festors, then ultra / hydra / viper.... I just maxed with every comp I thought would be good vs his style but eventually got broke on resourses lol. The thing with ultras was that they got like 1 shooted if u came too close to the widow mines, thought hydras would be good to clean them up, but siege tanks with vikings granting vision for his tanks and microing back widow mines .. T_T
Got any suggestions on what to do next time I meet a turtle terran like that??
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On January 18 2013 05:38 Siggeh wrote:Show nested quote +
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
Have u ever played late game vs a terran turtling with mass siege tank / widow mines / vikings/ a few thors behind his planetaries + turrets, cutting the map in half (what mech did in old days on maps like shakuras) That was the most frustrating 1 hour long game vs terran I've had which I lost... and yes this is in GM. I got every upgrade there is in the game, I guess I maxed on fully upgraded t3 armies like 4 times and ended up losing. Tried max ultra / ling / queen, then broods / corruptors / queens / festors, then ultra / hydra / viper.... I just maxed with every comp I thought would be good vs his style but eventually got broke on resourses lol. The thing with ultras was that they got like 1 shooted if u came too close to the widow mines, thought hydras would be good to clean them up, but siege tanks with vikings granting vision for his tanks and microing back widow mines .. T_T Got any suggestions on what to do next time I meet a turtle terran like that??
I would recommend thinking about widow mines late game as similar to tanks, where they do splash damage to friendly units. So along with tanks and widow mines, either swarm hosts or broodlords (because of free units) would be a good idea. A few vipers are also handy for the planetaries and because mech is slow, blinding cloud is very effective. You could also add in a few swarm hosts since they are more mobile then broodlords. The good thing is if they make lots of vikings just switch to more swarm host heavy. Having some ultras/infestors/queens is also great just so they cant run their thors under you. I'm assuming you can get all of this since it seems like it was more or less a split map game.
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On January 18 2013 05:38 Siggeh wrote:Show nested quote +
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
Have u ever played late game vs a terran turtling with mass siege tank / widow mines / vikings/ a few thors behind his planetaries + turrets, cutting the map in half (what mech did in old days on maps like shakuras) That was the most frustrating 1 hour long game vs terran I've had which I lost... and yes this is in GM. I got every upgrade there is in the game, I guess I maxed on fully upgraded t3 armies like 4 times and ended up losing. Tried max ultra / ling / queen, then broods / corruptors / queens / festors, then ultra / hydra / viper.... I just maxed with every comp I thought would be good vs his style but eventually got broke on resourses lol. The thing with ultras was that they got like 1 shooted if u came too close to the widow mines, thought hydras would be good to clean them up, but siege tanks with vikings granting vision for his tanks and microing back widow mines .. T_T Got any suggestions on what to do next time I meet a turtle terran like that??
Yeah well if you maxed out on bl/corr/infestor with 3-3 upgrades I can't see a viking/widow mine army beating that unless you didn't have detection.
It is really powerful, widow mines are really frustrating to play against when the terran uses them correctly. But in general I still rarely lose to mech cause vipers are still good 
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Whats the way to win every matchup
lost 6 games in a row, dont know how to play anymore
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Hey guys, WoL-silver Zerg here
Due to my lack of time in the past for WoL I decided to switch to HotS as soon as it's out. So I got my Beta-Key last week and now I want to train to get a feeling for the game again and to have a very good start after it's officially released.
I haven't played WoL for a very long time so I'm not used to common BOs anymore, so here are some questions for HotS:
Does anyone have some good BOs to start with for every match-up and some decent over-all plans?
In ZvT I used to start 14/14 get my expansion at 21 and tried to get Ling/bling/muta, is this still viable in HotS? Furthermore I have no plan what to do in ZvP and ZvZ. I've read some threads here in the forums but didn't find any useful hints.
I used to play very defensively vs Zerg in WoL, staying on 1-base for some time and insta-tech to Mutas which was back then a very good tactic in my league as I experienced, but how do I play ZvZ in general nowadays in HotS? Last but not least how do I play vs Protoss...I'm really clueless in this match-up.
So thanks for reading and it would be really awesome if you guys could help me out, because I want to get higher than silverleague this time 
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On January 21 2013 03:57 Tampuk wrote:Hey guys, WoL-silver Zerg here Due to my lack of time in the past for WoL I decided to switch to HotS as soon as it's out. So I got my Beta-Key last week and now I want to train to get a feeling for the game again and to have a very good start after it's officially released. I haven't played WoL for a very long time so I'm not used to common BOs anymore, so here are some questions for HotS: Does anyone have some good BOs to start with for every match-up and some decent over-all plans? In ZvT I used to start 14/14 get my expansion at 21 and tried to get Ling/bling/muta, is this still viable in HotS? Furthermore I have no plan what to do in ZvP and ZvZ. I've read some threads here in the forums but didn't find any useful hints. I used to play very defensively vs Zerg in WoL, staying on 1-base for some time and insta-tech to Mutas which was back then a very good tactic in my league as I experienced, but how do I play ZvZ in general nowadays in HotS? Last but not least how do I play vs Protoss...I'm really clueless in this match-up. So thanks for reading and it would be really awesome if you guys could help me out, because I want to get higher than silverleague this time
in ZvZ and ZvT go 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas as you start getting better in ZvT you can skp the gas and get gas after you ahve 4 queens
in ZvP go 14 pool, 15 hatch (assuming theres no pylon block) and if they FFE (thats frogefast expand) then take a third at 4:30 and double gas at 6:00
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ZvT: I'm not sure I understand the match up correctly. So I usually go Muta/Ling/Bane and do incredibly well against Bio or even MarineTank but when I go up against Mech, it can get a little shaky. I tend to go double upgrade (Melee/Carapace) before Lair but when I actually end up scounting Mech, my Melee upgrades are about halfway done. Should I Carapace/Lair first and upgrade attack a little later? You can't really scout multiple Factories until much later anyways. Also army composition wise, should I be going Muta/Ling/Bane or go WoL style with Ling/Bane/Infestors?
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On January 22 2013 14:24 raybasto wrote:
ZvT: I'm not sure I understand the match up correctly. So I usually go Muta/Ling/Bane and do incredibly well against Bio or even MarineTank but when I go up against Mech, it can get a little shaky. I tend to go double upgrade (Melee/Carapace) before Lair but when I actually end up scounting Mech, my Melee upgrades are about halfway done. Should I Carapace/Lair first and upgrade attack a little later? You can't really scout multiple Factories until much later anyways. Also army composition wise, should I be going Muta/Ling/Bane or go WoL style with Ling/Bane/Infestors?
against mech you want raoch/hydra/viper dont know why you think ling/bane wold work well against mech
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On January 22 2013 14:24 raybasto wrote:
ZvT: I'm not sure I understand the match up correctly. So I usually go Muta/Ling/Bane and do incredibly well against Bio or even MarineTank but when I go up against Mech, it can get a little shaky. I tend to go double upgrade (Melee/Carapace) before Lair but when I actually end up scounting Mech, my Melee upgrades are about halfway done. Should I Carapace/Lair first and upgrade attack a little later? You can't really scout multiple Factories until much later anyways. Also army composition wise, should I be going Muta/Ling/Bane or go WoL style with Ling/Bane/Infestors?
Just keep the melee upgrades going.
Best way to fight mech that I have been doing personally (well even easier then roach/hydra/viper) is going roach/hydra - fast hive - vipers - add in ultra/ling after initial vipers. That's what I do, so I get melee/carapace no matter what and go fast hive and once I get ultra/viper out easy peasy :p.
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Thanks for the advice. Couple more questions.
ZvT: Against Battle Hellions/Marine and going Ling/Bane, do you just make a bunch of Banes to combat this? Obviously going mass Ling, like what I used to do against Hellions in WoL, don't work anymore and going reactive Roach den when you see Battle Hellion don't come out fast enough
ZvZ: I've been going +1 Carapace over Banes in ZvZ and have been seeing some success, but by the time they get Mutas out, I don't get out as many as they do. Anyone else go +1 Carapace and know how to make this work out?
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On January 22 2013 15:05 raybasto wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Couple more questions.
ZvT: Against Battle Hellions/Marine and going Ling/Bane, do you just make a bunch of Banes to combat this? Obviously going mass Ling, like what I used to do against Hellions in WoL, don't work anymore and going reactive Roach den when you see Battle Hellion don't come out fast enough
ZvZ: I've been going +1 Carapace over Banes in ZvZ and have been seeing some success, but by the time they get Mutas out, I don't get out as many as they do. Anyone else go +1 Carapace and know how to make this work out?
ZvT: might be a good idea to jsut always get an early roach warren and get a few roachs out to help against stuff like that but otherwise you would want banelings and stry to jsut blow up as much as you can as fast as you can also if you can lure him into spines would help you immensly
ZvZ: if you skip the baneling nest you shouldnt be that far behind him gas wise, your spending 150 gas on the +1 carapace and hes spending 50 gas on the nest and probably another 50 on safety banelings so youd only wind up max 100 gas behind so sounds like a macro problem on your end, maybe not getting gas fast enough or something
if you do go for +1 carapace you should be suing your lings to counter when his mutas move out since there more durable and more reliable then his lings (probably) are
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On January 22 2013 15:05 raybasto wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Couple more questions.
ZvT: Against Battle Hellions/Marine and going Ling/Bane, do you just make a bunch of Banes to combat this? Obviously going mass Ling, like what I used to do against Hellions in WoL, don't work anymore and going reactive Roach den when you see Battle Hellion don't come out fast enough
ZvZ: I've been going +1 Carapace over Banes in ZvZ and have been seeing some success, but by the time they get Mutas out, I don't get out as many as they do. Anyone else go +1 Carapace and know how to make this work out?
ZvT I feel you have to have a roach warren at minimum as battle hellions eat lings alive. This is personal opinion but I do think you have to have a roach warren and just make roaches if you see battle hellions.
For zvz I never go +1 carapace and would pick banelings over that everytime especially when going muta play personally. But it sounds like you may be getting your gases later if you are always behind on muta count starting out.
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ZvZ gas timings is first gas at 17 supply (If 15 Hatch 16 Pool), second gas at 5:30, and 3rd/4th gas when you start Lair?
ZvT I'll try to make a preemptive Roach den when I see the Battle Hellions then.
Thanks for the help!
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On January 22 2013 15:41 raybasto wrote:
ZvZ gas timings is first gas at 17 supply (If 15 Hatch 16 Pool), second gas at 5:30, and 3rd/4th gas when you start Lair?
ZvT I'll try to make a preemptive Roach den when I see the Battle Hellions then.
Thanks for the help!
2 timings you can do zvz.
Can get 2nd gas at 6, start lair 6:30 and get 3rd/4'th at same time or at 6:30 start lair and get 2nd,3rd,4'th gas at same time. I think most zergs do 6:30 lair + 2nd, third and 4'th gas.
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EPT
