EPTEven Hydra-expand can be ok if you opt for fast Hive into Vipers afterwards.
The (HotS) Zerg Help Me Thread Beta - Page 14
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_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
Even Hydra-expand can be ok if you opt for fast Hive into Vipers afterwards. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 11 2013 20:06 _indigo_ wrote: Vs Gate-Expand you shouldn't really open 3 hatch, especially not with the new MSC along side Zealot and Stalker. You should just go 2 base Lair and Then expand. So basically either muta-expand (not if stargate probably), infestor-expand, swarmhost-expand or something like that. Even Hydra-expand can be ok if you opt for fast Hive into Vipers afterwards. way mroe careful then you need to be, as soon as they expand your safe to take your third | ||
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Siggeh
Norway71 Posts
--> infestors with their IT + fungal was the old way zergs dealt with mass air, yes I have to agree that it was kinda joke how infestors was the counter to everything in WoL but just nerfing the unit without buffing other units leaves the zerg all completely helpeless when defending for example mass air. --> at the current stage of the beta u can't beat the protoss if they're getting their deathball out (This deathball should consist of mass air with mainly void rays in it, u will add tempests to the composition later on AND high templars with storms and feedbacks is crucial as this is how they easily deals with hydras, the protoss will use mainly gas on his comp and the huge mineral bank will go to mass cannon, he will then further camp, and attacking into mass void with a lot of cannons and HT with storm is usually not a good idea). --> I know it's beta and a lot of new changes will probably come in the future, but it's just depressing how every game pans out like this. Edit: Oh and if u got any good suggestion on how this can be dealt with I'm open for suggestions. I'm currently GM in hots... but GM in hots is more so irrelevant, master in WoL tho. Edit2: I know IdrA is complaining a lot about this issue. CatZ started to play protoss because of exactly this. I know FXOLucky makes a lot of cheeses in ZvP and transition into hydra timing (basically every option to end the game fast). | ||
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Suikakuju
Germany238 Posts
ZvP ZvT is not fun right now... | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 12 2013 20:30 Siggeh wrote: ZvP has become so depressing on the zerg side of things. When will blizzard take a look at zerg? Protoss has got so much buffs and technics on how to make pressure (with MSC) and they also have an easier time dealing with runbys because of planetaries nexusus. Protoss AA has been buffed substantially, and the zerg's AA has been nerfed to the ground --> infestors with their IT + fungal was the old way zergs dealt with mass air, yes I have to agree that it was kinda joke how infestors was the counter to everything in WoL but just nerfing the unit without buffing other units leaves the zerg all completely helpeless when defending for example mass air. --> at the current stage of the beta u can't beat the protoss if they're getting their deathball out (This deathball should consist of mass air with mainly void rays in it, u will add tempests to the composition later on AND high templars with storms and feedbacks is crucial as this is how they easily deals with hydras, the protoss will use mainly gas on his comp and the huge mineral bank will go to mass cannon, he will then further camp, and attacking into mass void with a lot of cannons and HT with storm is usually not a good idea). --> I know it's beta and a lot of new changes will probably come in the future, but it's just depressing how every game pans out like this. Edit: Oh and if u got any good suggestion on how this can be dealt with I'm open for suggestions. I'm currently GM in hots... but GM in hots is more so irrelevant, master in WoL tho. Edit2: I know IdrA is complaining a lot about this issue. CatZ started to play protoss because of exactly this. I know FXOLucky makes a lot of cheeses in ZvP and transition into hydra timing (basically every option to end the game fast). just go for a "stephano raoch push" but add more gases and mix in hydras and keep up the agression if there constantly building units to kill your roach hydra there not making skytoss | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
What do you do against the sentry/immortal all-in in the beta? Seems like HotS have oppened up for some new responses to it, since there is no longer any "deadend" tech. I'm thinking that the choice must be between hydra's, hosts or mutas? Of course the old "counter", roach/ling and try to hold until infestors, is still viable, but it never really worked well to be honest. The toss would often kill the third base before infestors were out. So, what do you do when you scout those sentries and a robobay? | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
On January 13 2013 09:04 sweetbabyjesus wrote: I have a question, beta zergs of the world! What do you do against the sentry/immortal all-in in the beta? Seems like HotS have oppened up for some new responses to it, since there is no longer any "deadend" tech. I'm thinking that the choice must be between hydra's, hosts or mutas? Of course the old "counter", roach/ling and try to hold until infestors, is still viable, but it never really worked well to be honest. The toss would often kill the third base before infestors were out. So, what do you do when you scout those sentries and a robobay? I still think Roach/Ling is the best way to stop these attacks. You just gotta fake engagements in the middle of the map so by the time he actually hits your base, he won't have infinite force fields. I find this style to be best because once you stop it, you can take a 4th and tech to Hive with a good amount of gas saved for Ultras. I try to squeeze a macro hatch in before the 8 minute mark and Ling upgrades (Carapace) before the attack hits me. I'm not a big fan of Hydras because I'd rather save the gas for Infestors and Ultras Question: In ZvT, with the new Siege Tank buff, a lot of people have been going Mech by going Reapers into Spider mines into Siege Hellion with Thors and Vikings mixed in for Vipers. I know the counter to mech is Roach/Hydra/Viper, how are you supposed to beat Mech when they go heavy Vikings with Thors to stop Vipers? Should I be attacking at multiple fronts to force him to surrender his position? What ratio of Roach to Hydra should I do, heavy Roach with Hydra support? | ||
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Dynamitekid
United States55 Posts
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
On January 13 2013 12:34 Dynamitekid wrote: What do you guys think is a better combination versus Terran Bio? Lings+ultras+vipers or Lings+ultras+infestors? I would say Ling/Ultra/Infestor with 2-3 Vipers to Blinding Cloud Tanks. Should try to mix in a couple Banes in there too | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
I have a question, beta zergs of the world! What do you do against the sentry/immortal all-in in the beta? Seems like HotS have oppened up for some new responses to it, since there is no longer any "deadend" tech. I'm thinking that the choice must be between hydra's, hosts or mutas? Of course the old "counter", roach/ling and try to hold until infestors, is still viable, but it never really worked well to be honest. The toss would often kill the third base before infestors were out. So, what do you do when you scout those sentries and a robobay? the counter in WoL was never infesters because of what you said, they got out too late the counter in woL was to cath them before they got to your base in a scenario where they ahve to expend tons of FFs to survive and still lose sentries so that when they do get to your base a good engagements wins it for you that said in HoTS id suggest Hydras because A) there range makes them not really care about FFs B) there fast attack speed makes them good agaisnt immortals and C) you want hydras in the MU anyway and it gives you a good offensive army to prevent them from taking a 3rd Question: In ZvT, with the new Siege Tank buff, a lot of people have been going Mech by going Reapers into Spider mines into Siege Hellion with Thors and Vikings mixed in for Vipers. I know the counter to mech is Roach/Hydra/Viper, how are you supposed to beat Mech when they go heavy Vikings with Thors to stop Vipers? Should I be attacking at multiple fronts to force him to surrender his position? What ratio of Roach to Hydra should I do, heavy Roach with Hydra support? if he has vikings just make sure that your vipers are hiding behind your Hydras as much as possible the vikings are going to cut into his ground army so you could even go a bit lighter on roachs since he has less stuff on the ground killing your stuff on the ground if you have the spire (like if your planning a BL transition then a couple corrupters to scare the viks away wouldnt hurt | ||
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rMo
Switzerland50 Posts
I feel like phoenix are lifting my infestors and the rest of the air army just gets aclicked and melt everything t.t | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 14 2013 17:49 rMo wrote: Im struggling hard against Protoss Air, maybe im just bad, is there any chance to win against phoenix/carrier/oracle? I feel like phoenix are lifting my infestors and the rest of the air army just gets aclicked and melt everything t.t If they are only going phoenix/carrier/oracle just corruptors beats that. | ||
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rMo
Switzerland50 Posts
On January 14 2013 17:52 blade55555 wrote: If they are only going phoenix/carrier/oracle just corruptors beats that. Ok, thanks, gonna try that | ||
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Logsaysned
United States5 Posts
http://drop.sc/294928 I'm low master/dia in WOL | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On January 15 2013 09:23 Logsaysned wrote: Ok I'm having a helluva time vs protoss, especially mixed air/ground. Played a game against void/collo/stlker and i just couldnt trade efficiently. I made roach/hydra corrupter with better upgrades, way better economy but just got wrecked in every engagement. void rays destroy corrupters with their bonus vs armored attack and the collo zone out my hydra. What to do vs. Collo/void/stalker? heres the rep: http://drop.sc/294928 I'm low master/dia in WOL wait for inc void ray nerf  id suggest roach/hydra/viper and focus on abducting the collisi and killing them ASAP then its jsut gateway units and VRs vs roach hydra | ||
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Rallerbabz
Denmark15 Posts
I find Zerg weak in the early/mid game. I mostly want to rush to lategame where I can use Viper or ultralisk. Can anyone give some advice in how to rush to hive tech but still being safe in zvp and zvt? | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On January 11 2013 20:04 blade55555 wrote: Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate). Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case. | ||
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Rallerbabz
Denmark15 Posts
On January 17 2013 17:38 doggy wrote: Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case. I don't know man. I feel like Zerg has to play greedy and get a relative early fourth, thus I can't effort to delay my third. The reason why I think this, is that Protoss is being so damn greedy in hots - they tend to take their third extremely early - earlier than you have time to get hydras out, which means if they have the mothershipcore, a VR and some sentries, you can't deny his third with roaches. What's your solution on this? | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On January 17 2013 17:15 Rallerbabz wrote: Hey guys. I find Zerg weak in the early/mid game. I mostly want to rush to lategame where I can use Viper or ultralisk. Can anyone give some advice in how to rush to hive tech but still being safe in zvp and zvt? In ZvT if your opponent is somewhat mech/turtley, staying on roach hydra on 2 bases can still get you a pretty early hive. Since after hive you most often only get vipers it's not really more expensive then, say, upgraded infestors. Try to plant the third asap though. vs Bio a MutaLing/Bling style would accomplish the same, although you'd need a macro hatch if you stay on 2 bases! In ZvP you can get hive right after you planted your infestation pit. Both plays(in ZvT and ZvP) result in a hive at the 11th to 13th minute mark which should still give you a solid enough lategame and a really good composition to fight. But keep in mind that rushing to hive is not always the best idea! EDIT: About the other issue above: I find that a greedy toss that goes for a ground robo-based army is best punished with swarm host play. You stay on 2 or 3 bases, mass up hosts with corruptor support and when they think they got their deathball up you're prepared to be aggressive vs them since they can't attack into that (and with the new ultras a techswitch into ultra is possible if they go for high templars for example. you just have to prepare that in advance, getting +1 melee ugprade as soon as you sense templars coming up. that style also really transitions nicely into broodlords if they focus on stalkers too much. swarm host/broodlord with corruptor support is just terrific.) Other stuff like airplay is best answered with a fast third and aggressive muta ling bling resulting in ultralisk infestor/viper shenanigans. But I'm still very much experimenting with that. Because both playstyles want a relatively early lair, I prefer the 1 gas asap vs gate openings. vs forge first or nexus first everything is kinda delayed for toss, so the 2 gas at 44 are preferable then. | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On January 17 2013 17:59 Rallerbabz wrote: I don't know man. I feel like Zerg has to play greedy and get a relative early fourth, thus I can't effort to delay my third. The reason why I think this, is that Protoss is being so damn greedy in hots - they tend to take their third extremely early - earlier than you have time to get hydras out, which means if they have the mothershipcore, a VR and some sentries, you can't deny his third with roaches. What's your solution on this? Thats exactly what i was refering to :-) vs 3 base P/T i feel like i need to get asap 10 gases for not getting behind. That being said i cannot afford a early gas just because protoss opened gateway instead of forge. Its the same in zvt, i dont get early gases against gas builds of terran either, simply because i need to play as much on the edge as humanly possible to not get behind. In hots i feel like zerg has to play even more greedy than in wol. still, against gateway builds u cant get ur third before 6mins safely, at least in the most of situations. I do have more problems in ZvT though regards not getting behind. If a terran opens 1 rax expand into 4min dbl gas, i cannot scout what hes doing (heavy aggression or just slight aggression into early third). The scout will just get denied by 1-3 marines patrolling. Which means i have to prepair for the hardest pressure which can come at me (mostly heavy helion banshee commitment or/and widow mines). That leads to situations where i start my third when the one of my opponent is already done. I couldnt figure out so far what i need to mix up to change that | ||
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