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On October 05 2012 03:38 Silencioseu wrote:
iv'e played against this many times, and i have to say that it's really easy to hold. You just go madman with your marine marauder ball kiting the zealots, and the ht won't even be able to get close to your army to storm, and even if they do get close enough, they'll probably tick 1 or 2 times a fourth or so of your army
this is a defensive build. the protoss' you play are doing it wrong when they are trying to chase your army somewhere not in your base
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Italy12248 Posts
1) What do you mean "easy to hold"? This build is not aggressive for a long time. It's nowhere near similar to a 2base Storm timing attack, which is actually NOT easy to hold because you will be fighting at the terran's where the space to storm dodge is extremely limited
2) If for some reason you are implying that Templar openings (and Templar play in general) are not viable you couldn't be more wrong. Saying "lolol just storm dodge!" makes zero sense.
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On October 05 2012 03:38 Silencioseu wrote:
iv'e played against this many times, and i have to say that it's really easy to hold. You just go madman with your marine marauder ball kiting the zealots, and the ht won't even be able to get close to your army to storm, and even if they do get close enough, they'll probably tick 1 or 2 times a fourth or so of your army
I think you kind of missed the point of this build. It never asks people to move out on the map. It's primary intention is to get a 3rd base without dying.
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Going try this build I have horrible drop defense so I'm hoping this build helps with that.
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United States123 Posts
What should be the general timing for a colossus switch after taking a third with this build? Should I be looking to drop a second robo and robo bay after warping in a set number of templar (after the first two archons)? I've been having some difficulty timing it out, because I generally feel a bit gas starved in the period where I'm researching storm and warping in additional templar. I've run into a couple of instances where I get killed by a timing at my third with ghosts before I have any colossi out.
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Italy12248 Posts
There's not a general fixed timing like with 3 colossi into templar.
If you look at Startale players and/or guys like MC, they like to take their 4th before switching, staying on gateway tech for a long time. If you wanna do it faster, i think having a good templar count (like 8-10 spread between bases) is a good moment to go for the switch. In general though, it's possible to stick to templar a bit longer than with colossus since it's more about micro than viking/stalker count.
I'm not sure about this, but if you lose to ghost timings other than improving your micro or switching to colossus faster (like cut down on the number of templar you invest in before making the switch), you can actually delay your colossus tech and get a bunch of gates after your third. In one of my replays, i did that and maxed in 15 minutes (with fairly bad macro too), so when the terran's push hit me he was like HOLY WHAT THE FUCK THAT'S 40 CHARGELOTS. I'm not sure if that can be done consistently (plus i can't play right now to test stuff tt), but that's pretty fun to do 
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On October 17 2012 05:20 Chandra wrote:
What should be the general timing for a colossus switch after taking a third with this build? Should I be looking to drop a second robo and robo bay after warping in a set number of templar (after the first two archons)? I've been having some difficulty timing it out, because I generally feel a bit gas starved in the period where I'm researching storm and warping in additional templar. I've run into a couple of instances where I get killed by a timing at my third with ghosts before I have any colossi out.
Double Robo is too slow and too expensive, especially if that timing is killing you.
I play it out so that I am aggressive on the map when Storm is researching and attack the second it's done, and you should have a couple minutes of time before their Ghosts are on the field that you can force a lift on the 3rd base. On the clock, this timing is usually between 12-14 minutes at my level, and from what I can tell at the pro level. During that time, take your own 3rd, and just progress through Robo and Bay as soon as possible, after your 3rd is started.
Another option is that if you absolutely crush their +1 medivac timing, you can move forward with Zealot Archon immediately and forego Storm for a little while while you get your 3rd up. A lot of times this can just kill them, and even against the people I play they aren't super tight with their control during that timing, so I can hammer it really hard about 1/3 of the games.
I think you might be warping in too many Templar during the transition period, but the key is keeping his army size small while you switch tech routes. If you can deny any mining at all, it's even better.
If you're not as confident with that Storm timing, you can play more of a Rain style where you use just a few Zealots at one base and Storm drops at different bases to keep the Terran's army moving and his economy plodding while you switch into Colossus. I've done that in some games and it works really well, and it's quite fun.
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United States123 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:36 Teoita wrote:There's not a general fixed timing like with 3 colossi into templar. If you look at Startale players and/or guys like MC, they like to take their 4th before switching, staying on gateway tech for a long time. If you wanna do it faster, i think having a good templar count (like 8-10 spread between bases) is a good moment to go for the switch. In general though, it's possible to stick to templar a bit longer than with colossus since it's more about micro than viking/stalker count. I'm not sure about this, but if you lose to ghost timings other than improving your micro or switching to colossus faster (like cut down on the number of templar you invest in before making the switch), you can actually delay your colossus tech and get a bunch of gates after your third. In one of my replays, i did that and maxed in 15 minutes (with fairly bad macro too), so when the terran's push hit me he was like HOLY WHAT THE FUCK THAT'S 40 CHARGELOTS. I'm not sure if that can be done consistently (plus i can't play right now to test stuff tt), but that's pretty fun to do
Yeah, I'm probably still in the mindset of defensive colossus builds, which I've been doing primarily for quite a while. I'm not too used to playing more of an aggressive/mass gateway midgame in PvT, but it does seem like a good idea with this build. I'll give that a try.
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Italy12248 Posts
While i'm at it, i'll second what Sidewinder said: you can also chrono out a couple of warp prisms and storm drop/warp in zealots to keep the terran back in his base to buy time for your colosssus transition, if you go for it after you have estabilished your third.
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On October 17 2012 08:09 Teoita wrote:
While i'm at it, i'll second what Sidewinder said: you can also chrono out a couple of warp prisms and storm drop/warp in zealots to keep the terran back in his base to buy time for your colosssus transition, if you go for it after you have estabilished your third.
3rded. I like to get a prism after I've already traded well, either early on or at the 10 minute attack. I feel like if you don't trade well earlier, then putting 1-2 HT in a WP while you are transitioning to colossus is a bit of a gamble.
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How should a terran play agaisnt this build? Drop to the main no matter what with 4 Medivacs full with stuff like MVP did in the semi finals? Take a quick third and 4th? Do both? How do you guys lose with this build? I having trouble against terrans who drop me all the time even though I have 4-6 stalkers around my base they can find a hole...
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Italy12248 Posts
Assuming i don't fuck up, this build is safe vs drops and timings. Because of the investment in robo/observers and the delay on charge and storm however, it's hard to be aggressive until about 13 minutes into the game.
This means i can't really punish a fast 3cc or double eng bay opening.
It's also very safe for terran to take their third off 3 rax and a starport rather than going up to 5rax first, since again i can't really attack for a while (assuming he doesn't donate all his units with his medivac timing).
Overall though, this is just a very solid, standard style of play, and it doesn't have any "hard" counters.
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I believe HotS is a good reason to bump this thread, as I would still like to go 2 base templar in the expansion.
Is this build and playstyle still viable in HotS? Do the speedmedivacs make it impossible? Does the Mothership Core allow for any improvements to the way this is played? An update to the guide for Heart of the Swarm would be sweet.
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Italy12248 Posts
2base templar is definitely viable.
This specific build with its various timings, especially when it comes to cutting units for tech/prodution, very likely doesn't work vs a ton of builds (as in the widow mine drop every terran is doing would kill you horribly since you cut so many units at that point in the game).
I'll try to update this with the rest of the tl strat team, but for now there no pro games of P going 2base templar so it's not easy to do.
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On March 18 2013 19:09 Teoita wrote:
2base templar is definitely viable.
This specific build with its various timings, especially when it comes to cutting units for tech/prodution, very likely doesn't work vs a ton of builds (as in the widow mine drop every terran is doing would kill you horribly since you cut so many units at that point in the game).
I'll try to update this with the rest of the tl strat team, but for now there no pro games of P going 2base templar so it's not easy to do.
I understand, and I'll experiment a bit myself but I'm only diamond so my contributions only mean so much. Thanks anyways, looking forward to an update
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We definitely need some revised builds for hots. Especially with the help of MC maybe we can be more greedy with some builds or get earlier timings with all ins...
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Teoita i tried this in WOL with fair results - can you share some reps of how its done in HoTs ? Ive tried and it hasnt worked out too well for me. thanks
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Italy12248 Posts
I haven't done it in HotS yet. Plus you really, really don't want to see my HotS PvT anyway, it's god awful 
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Italy12248 Posts
FUCKING
PARTING
imma add a link to the vod later. Not exactly the same build but holy shit. PLus this was the prominent 2base templar thread so i figure it's nice to add the vod.
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EPT
