EPT[G] PvT: Startale 2 Base Templar - Page 5
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Nikoras
United States115 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
OP updated with a couple improvements suggested by kcdc and monk. | ||
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Geiko
France1952 Posts
And great guide as well  | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
GSL spoilers relevant to this build: + Show Spoiler + In the only game that Mana played vs asd in Code A in which asd didn't all-in, he used essentially this same idea. Once he researched Storm, he pushed out and hammered asd really hard, for an easy win. Really cool game to watch. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
Btw I hate facing this build because it melts my army in TvP all the tine. Luckily most Protoss still go colo business. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
The game is evolving all the time and no one has a definite answer for every strategy related question for SC2. Thus, it is extremely important that you back up everything with sound reasoning, a replay, or a VOD, anything that supports the point you are making. Your word is not enough. A one-line response to a post without anything to support it is not acceptable. In the same token, simply posting stories of what you do without any analysis or explanation in response to another post is not acceptable. That said, there are people much more qualified to talk about strategy than others. You will see their posts in this forum highlighted with a light blue background. Statements by these “blue posters” will be weighted differently than had they be posted by complete unknowns. Thus, the less reputation you have, the more you need to back up your claims as previously described. Note, however, that this does not excuse outrageous claims by a good player – in the end, every claim will need proof. So really, contribute as much as you can with good consistent posting. Tbh i was quite surprised i got it, since every other blue is in some way connected to a well known pro or generally high level team. Also @Geiko: thanks a lot. Back in the day i suggested you should have become blue for your phoenix guide and the defensive 3gate you posted @Sidewinder: now that i've watched that game i feel even worse for Mana, i only saw game 2 and 3  It's interesting that he goes for a timing with storm while taking a third. I wonder if i can do that with this build, keeping the templar un morphed and getting faster storm to punish any kind of greedy play by the Terran, which as i mention is tough to play against. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 26 2012 16:42 SidewinderSC2 wrote: I have been using this same concept in PvT lately, with kcdc's help and replays, and it's been awesome. I really love kcdc's 2gate (total) + forge followup after expand.. the money spending is exactly on. 3 gates sits idle way too much, and the upgrades are really quick. I do prefer Archons before Storm though, but you have a good 2 minutes with Storm to be really aggressive before they get Ghosts on the map. Only downside is that the build is just a tad weak to double medivac drops if you don't go Robo before TC.. just need really good positioning (and I use a couple cannons). GSL spoilers relevant to this build: + Show Spoiler + In the only game that Mana played vs asd in Code A in which asd didn't all-in, he used essentially this same idea. Once he researched Storm, he pushed out and hammered asd really hard, for an easy win. Really cool game to watch. Yeah, I've been sticking with 2 gates and dropping a forge when pros tend to drop their 3rd gate. It seems straight up better against any follow-up to gasless 1-rax CC, so I don't know why pros stick with 3 gates. I guess they like having 3 gates in case they get caught off guard and need to ramp up production quickly. Still, faster upgrades seems much better than a security blanket that you'll never use. As for archons + observers vs storm + playing blind, I'm still not sure which is better. I've been doing the faster robo with later storm and I've done fine with that, but something just feels off when I do it. My army feels weaker and if my archon(s) get focus fired, I might just lose to the medivac timing. I think the problem might be trying to get charge too early or maybe I'm not cutting probes when I should be, but I never had this problem when I would skip the robo and get storm out faster. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
What seems to work okay for me is going blind templars + charge without obs. It feels like everything is slightly too delayed for the stim + medivac timing if you insert a robo and some obs in your build I've never felt comfortable with getting archons instead of storm versus the timing. In particular when you get dropped in your main, while terran pushes your third ( / third attempt ) at the same time. Archons just do not cut it mobility-wise. I prefer rushing for storm for defense. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On September 27 2012 00:29 kcdc wrote: Yeah, I've been sticking with 2 gates and dropping a forge when pros tend to drop their 3rd gate. It seems straight up better in all cases, so I don't know why they stick with 3 gates. I guess they like having 3 gates in case they get caught off guard and need to ramp up production quickly. Still, faster upgrades seems much better than a security blanket that you'll never use. As for archons + observers vs storm + playing blind, I'm still not sure which is better. I've been doing the faster robo with later storm and I've done fine with that, but something just feels off when I do it. My army feels weaker and if my archon(s) get focus fired, I might just lose to the medivac timing. I think the problem might be trying to get charge too early or maybe I'm not cutting probes when I should be, but I never had this problem when I would skip the robo and get storm out faster. I don't get the Robo sometimes until after the 3rd base. I don't feel that the information is that valuable when they gasless expand. I just add cannons so my Stalkers have to cover less surface area in the main. Sometimes my Archons are just a tad late, but I can buy time with forcefields if I need to. However, I will get a Robo earlier if they take gas before expanding, since you basically need it to figure out what is going on. Then I will stay off Archons for a long time and prioritize charge and a big army instead. Both circumstances feel fine to me, since their medivac push will be a little later and little more marauder-heavy. It seems to me that players are a little more brave about keeping their army on the map if they opened gas into some kind of barracks pressure during their expand, so I get at least 1 Immortal out of the Robo and 2-4 observers by the time my 3rd base is up, so I can see attack and drop paths. My Archons sometimes don't come until my 3rd base starts in this case. I don't think that getting an early Robo and spraying observers around if they gasless expand is really worthwhile. You just invest too much gas into information when you can get a reasonable amount of information by just using your own APM to hold watchtowers and position units cleverly to see what is going on. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
You just invest too much gas into information when you can get a reasonable amount of information by just using your own APM to hold watchtowers and position units cleverly to see what is going on. Genius. You can handle gasless CC ==> cloaked banshee without observers by ringing T's base with units at the banshee timing. If you see a banshee leaving T's base, throw down a few cannons and a robo. Depending on the rush distance, you might need 2 cannons per mineral line to ensure that 1 of them finishes before the banshee gets across the map and starts DPS'ing them down. I'm going back to delaying robo until I take my third. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
kcdc, would you mind posting a few replays once you get the positioning sorted out? It sounds really interesting. @Sidewinder: when you play against gas openings, how do you transition into templar play? I always felt like holding off my forge/twilight until i can confirm no one base allin delays everything by far too much. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
I think the biggest big problem is that the likelihood of you being pinned in your natural for a long time without Storm is much higher than if you had that money put toward actual units. This used to happen to me all the time when I'd open Robo before TC vs gasless expand, and I got frustrated and just had to all-in shortly afterward, or else my Nexus would get canceled over and over. The cannons to hold medivac drops I think are quite important. I always feel I need at least 1 to reduce the amount of surface area that my Stalkers need to patrol so I can buy time and accurately judge how I need to split my army to deal with harass. I think this needs to happen if you skip obs, so you kinda play blind but you still play relatively safe and give yourself a chance to fix holes rather than just dying if you miss a couple medivacs. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On September 27 2012 01:22 Teoita wrote: Ok that's fucking genius. kcdc, would you mind posting a few replays once you get the positioning sorted out? It sounds really interesting. @Sidewinder: when you play against gas openings, how do you transition into templar play? I always felt like holding off my forge/twilight until i can confirm no one base allin delays everything by far too much. I actually delay upgrades quite a bit when I play against gas openings. +1 Marauders against Charge Zealots are really not very much better than +0 attack Marauders, so I don't think it's a very big deal. If you mix in at least one Immortal, it will be worth a lot more than the cost of a Forge and having to wait for the upgrade(s) to finish, IMO. I think you need to do that Stalker + Zealot poke to see what is going on, and run a really optimized 1gate FE, chronoboosting units off the first gate quite a bit. If you see Marauders, then you already know what is going on. If not, you have to prioritize your Robo and kind of take a chance that they aren't tricking you. I think it's wise to be willing to position and/or lose units (probes) to see what is going on so you have time to react, so if a probe right outside their natural dies to some units, you know they are pushing and most of the time can see what is in the push. Mana does this a lot, too. You can also be smart about checking to see if they drop an expansion by putting a scouting probe somewhere in their natural to check for information that they might try to deny later, with that old frontal bunker with no CC behind it. Terrans that open gas are a little less worried about probes hiding around since they have the force to hold a tricky push or something. Of course, this might not always work.. hence the unit poking. Anyway, so once I know what is going on, or if I can see an expansion or composition or something, then I will take double gas at the natural and get a TC down as soon as I know I am safe for a little while. If they are not expanding and have shown me Banshees or Hellions or something, getting a TC and taking the extra gas is pretty much suicide. If it turns into something like gas opener into standard +1 medivac timing, I will try to have at least 1 Immortal in my composition and Charge done by the time they would normally push. Forcefields + Immortals are really, really good in the midgame against a more Marauder-heavy composition, so I don't feel that I need Archons or Templar to kill boatloads of Marines yet. Since you are a little more reliant on good forcefields, I think spraying observers around is very worthwhile so you can get perfect forcefields to cut off just a few units and slowly grind down the effectiveness of any attack they try to make. Templar comes after that, without sacrificing any gas toward your observers, Immortals, Charge and Sentries. You kind of have to play it by ear, since you don't really know when you're safe to put that TC and double gas down until you see exactly what they are doing. Sometimes the Templar is quick because you figure out what is going on really early, and sometimes it's later. Just need to be active and make decisions based on what your information is delivering. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
I'm a terran player (top master) who is making a switch to Protoss now and I was wondering if you think this build is good to learn for the PvT match up as a beginner, yet good player? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
This build is definitely a good way to start; it's extremely safe, it should hold most timings confortably and it should make you used to having sentries as key defensive units, which is extremely important in protoss play. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On October 04 2012 14:51 Thylacine wrote: +1 armor that is? And yeah if Terrran keeps delaying me I'll just add on 1 forge and keep upgrading and also get storms. I'm a terran player (top master) who is making a switch to Protoss now and I was wondering if you think this build is good to learn for the PvT match up as a beginner, yet good player? I think if you are just switching to Protoss, you need to be a little careful about picking a build and just running it. Every Protoss build has an optimal run condition that you need to be scouting for. If you see the Terran opening gas or tech with this build in mind, you need to change the build fairly dramatically to favor Robo (for observers), more units off your first gateway and more units during your first couple of warp-in cycles, until you know what is going on. If they are just 1-basing, you can't do this build at all - you'd be best off favoring Colossus vs a 1-basing Terran. The optimal run condition for how this build is written is gasless expand, since you don't need to dramatically speed up any unit production or tech in order to not die or lose your Nexus. You can feel quite safe dropping a lot of chrono on probes once you've verified it's a gasless expand, and then you just need to be sure you are still making enough units for Keen-like Marine attacks while running the build. | ||
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StateofReverie
United States633 Posts
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Silencioseu
Cyprus493 Posts
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