EPT[G] PvT: Startale 2 Base Templar - Page 3
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 12 2012 03:28 Bam Lee wrote: Wouldnt it be possible to skip a few stalkers since you have HT with feedback for drop defense? As you don't have charge, storm, or colossi before 12 minutes, you really need to rely on stalkers to prevent drops from landing. If a drop successfully lands in your base, you'll either take huge damage or lose on the spot. This game of this build of Parting vs MVP shows why you really need stalkers to intercept drops and what happens if you don't. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 29 2012 06:54 Teoita wrote: This build is a bit safer and gets better scouting at the cost of slower tech essentially. Other than that yeah, kcdc's build is really good. Yep, they're similar. I actually saw Parting do his 2-base templar build a few times a little after I'd hammered out how I wanted to play my 2-base templar build and noted the similarities and differences. The big differences are: (1) Parting gets a robo and observers a good 4-5 minutes earlier than I do. This means he actually sees what Terran is doing, whereas I poke the front and make educated guesses based on unit counts and timings. (2) I skip stalker production and the robo to get storm a couple minutes earlier, and I base my medivac timing defense around storm and feedback whereas Parting defends with archons and zealots while warding against drops with his stalkers. (3) I get upgrades a little quicker. I wouldn't say either option is safer or stronger. My build is definitely stomps the medivac timing more cleanly assuming you have storms in time, and templar with storms are much more effective and forgiving of mistakes than a handful of stalkers are for defending drops. On the other hand, Parting's build is more flexible if you make a mistake or if Terran does something you didn't account for since he has observers, and the tech timing he's relying on (archons in time for 10:00 push) is less thin than the tech timing I rely on (storm in time for 10:00 push). With a 2-base templar build, you can have two but not all three of the following: -Fast upgrades -Early observer -Fast storm I choose fast upgrades and fast storm, while Parting chooses fast upgrades and early observer. The result is that he has more information up to 13:00, but my army is a little stronger in the 10:00-13:00 timing. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
What am I looking for with the poke? What does it really tell me? I see a bunker and am pushed away. Ok. I feel like I already knew that was going to happen. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Step 3: The 7:30 Poke You’ve confirmed a no gas FE by this point, right? If not, read the last section more carefully! You should’ve already switched to MC’s 1 gate FE if you didn’t see the command center. At around 7:30, you should have either 9 or 10 gateway units (I prefer 4 sentries, 2 stalkers, and 4 zealots at this point if I didn’t scout the FE in time to cut stalkers, otherwise just sentry/zealot is good) at the proxy pylon. Walk into the ramp, but don’t use guardian shield or force fields yet! What you see will influence the rest of the build. 1 or 2 bunkers, 8 marines or fewer: this is likely cloaked banshees followed by either the 2 base “1/1/1” with banshee/tank, or Sage/jjakji’s banshee thor build. Make a robo ASAP and try to do as much damage as you can with your units. Meanwhile at home, switch your strategy to whatever you do against the 2 base 1/1/1. There are already 3 bunkers: this is probably the fast 3 orbital build. You can continue with step 4, or if you’re super paranoid you can get detection. This is a bit tricky because fast cloaked banshees don’t actually have enough marines to fill all 3 bunkers yet so they usually stick with 2. If you do see marauder shots this early in the game with 3 bunkers, you can just build a nexus and a twilight council immediately. Mass marines with no marauder, or you got attacked by mass marines before you poked: this is gasless FE into 4 or 5 rax marine pressure. I haven’t seen this enough to know exactly what to do, but what’s worked for me so far is to just continue on with step 4 because zealots under a guardian shield will always trade effectively against un-upgraded marines. You might be able to just add 3 more gates and all-in because the stim research is so late, but I haven’t tried that yet. Marauder: this is most likely the standard build (3 rax then starport). This is your cue to continue with step 4. This is a scouting poke only.You should not try to do damage yet unless you see something like 1 bunker with only a few units around it. The difference is that kcdc pokes with just one stalker rather than with a gateway force, but those are things you should be on the lookout for. As he just told me, it's a pretty inexact science, which is why i personally greatly prefer the observer openings. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
I think that in most cases, seeing what Terran is doing is a little overrated. If you scout a gasless FE, he'll go for either the 10 minute medivac timing or a triple orbital build a good 85% of the time, and in both of those cases, you'll be better off without having spent early resources on the robo and observers. I've never really found 2-base marine-tank pushes to be all that scary, and there's a good chance your build will handle them without any deviations. Maybe you cancel an upgrade when you see him push out and chrono out a couple extra units. Beyond the tank rushes and the normal bio builds, you're basically left with 2-base cloaked banshee rush, which you should sense coming most of the time. In a tournament, you'd want to mix things up so that your opponent wouldn't be able to exploit your favorite habits. But on ladder, a build that puts you in a good position 95% of the time is fine to do every time. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
Edit for thank you ^^ | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 12 2012 09:01 Havik_ wrote: Is this considered a better, safer macro build than the two base Colossus attacks everyone has been doing?? I like the idea of going Templar instead of Colossus, but it doesn't look as good on paper. Two base colossi attacks are neither safe nor macro builds. Colossi openings and templar openings all have their unique advantages and disadvantage. Neither style is considered better than the other. I will tell you that out of all PvT openings, this, the CreatorPrime openings, and fast colossi into double forge are the three most used in the pro scene. I also believe, they're three of the most stable and "safe". | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
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durr
United States148 Posts
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scootsutrisno
United States1 Post
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If Terran opens for some 2base allin like thor/banshee/marine you can skip the Archons overall and tech to storm faster, as you know there will be no 10-11 minute timing attack from him. Regarding composition, if i decide to max out on gateway units to pressure a 4th i get about 6 templar in my main army, plus one more per base i have to defend; the rest of my gas goes in 1-2 extra archons and upgrades. If i go for a faster colossus transition, i cut out the 1-2 archons to be able to have more gas for a group of 10 stalkers with blink as well as double robo production. Generally, i think having around 10 or so templar spread between your main army and your bases is a good number to have. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Ghost vs templar micro is heavily ghost-favored if both players are giving it full attention, and even with colossi, T's fully upgraded MMMVG will beat you if you don't get off storms. On the other hand, Terran can't kite in multiple spots at once, and chareglots rock bio that stands still. So instead of aiming to perfect your composition while Terran does the same, try to push a constant battle for map control, fighting to maximize your presence and mobility by putting pylons and warp prisms everywhere you can. Trade zealots and DT's for his army and economy, and when he looks away, surprise his main force with storms and colossi. I don't like to group up more than 4 templar with my main army because I tend to get them EMP'd, so what I do instead is I avoid big fights while putting pylons across the middle of the map with a templar warped in at each one gathering energy. That way, if Terran tries to force a proper fight, he'll eat storms as he moves around the map. And of course if I do fight his army and need to retreat for any reason, I have storms littered across the map to take chunks out of his force and buy time to rebuild. Basically, try to keep stuff moving around and trading to hold both of your supplies under 160 or so. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On September 13 2012 02:27 kcdc wrote: Adding onto what Teoita said, in late game, I try to avoid the 200/200 situations with entrenched positions on both sides because I think they favor Terran. Teoita's right that about 10 templar spread around the map is a good number, but Iin my opinion, aiming to craft the perfect composition is a losing mindset. Ghost vs templar micro is heavily ghost-favored if both players are giving it full attention, and even with colossi, T's fully upgraded MMMVG will beat you if you don't get off storms. On the other hand, Terran can't kite in multiple spots at once, and chareglots rock bio that stands still. So instead of aiming to perfect your composition while Terran does the same, try to push a constant battle for map control, fighting to maximize your presence and mobility by putting pylons and warp prisms everywhere you can. Trade zealots and DT's for his army and economy, and when he looks away, surprise his main force with storms and colossi. I don't like to group up more than 4 templar with my main army because I tend to get them EMP'd, so what I do instead is I avoid big fights while putting pylons across the middle of the map with a templar warped in at each one gathering energy. That way, if Terran tries to force a proper fight, he'll eat storms as he moves around the map. And of course if I do fight his army and need to retreat for any reason, I have storms littered across the map to take chunks out of his force and buy time to rebuild. Basically, try to keep stuff moving around and trading to hold both of your supplies under 160 or so. I wish I had your PvT game sense. Yes, I'm jelly. So, clear this up for me kcdc. I've always favored going Storm first in PvT, but I always find that I'm contained in my base by a strong +1 medivac timing because I'm not totally sure how to handle my army when he pushes across the map. Assuming he has all of his forces in the front, am I eager to engage with my Zealots first (and if so, at my ramp, in front of my ramp, etc?), or do I try to use Storms to put damage on him and keep him away? I'd love to just crush his attack, but it just doesn't work for whatever reason. I also feel like I can't take a 3rd anywhere before this because of a lack of units and difficulty in covering more ground (especially against double medivac drops in the main). My inclination is to attack him and try to trade everything I have, while eventually winning with warp-ins, but for some reason whenever I get into this situation I just freeze and eventually run out of Storm energy (and subsequently die or get contained for 3-4 minutes). Please explain how a normal battle goes down in the 9-12 minute time window. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If you do manage to get storm up (like you would with kcdc's build) you can definitely crush his army, especially when your extra gateways kick in. If he has only 2-4 medivacs and no ghosts, trying to attack into storm is suicide for him; there's actually a few 8gate storm allins based around that. With this build you delay storm for upgrades, but at the very least when you get a few archons, complete 1/1 and charge your army will be quite cost efficient against bio with no ghost support (and possibly worse upgrades) assuming you engage well and land good ff's, so again you can move out and force him back. In my experience, the situation you describe where terran just keeps streaming units until you run out of storms is caused by screwing up an engagement, wether it is by not landing forcefields or storms, and from there it kinda snowballs in T's favour. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
I've been trying out the ST choice where you delay storm and beat the medivac timing with archons instead. This lets me get the archives later which I've been using to get a fast robo, earlier charge and a second forge timed up with my +1 weapons completing. It's not really a build at this point, but it seems cool. Maybe I'll try mixing in a fast warp prism to start chargelot harassment when he pushes out with his medivac timing. It might be fun to try a dark shrine instead of templar archives to defend with archon chargelot while you counter-drop with DTs and chargelots and take your third. After that, you could go to either colossus or storm tech. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On September 12 2012 09:28 monk. wrote: Two base colossi attacks are neither safe nor macro builds. Colossi openings and templar openings all have their unique advantages and disadvantage. Neither style is considered better than the other. I will tell you that out of all PvT openings, this, the CreatorPrime openings, and fast colossi into double forge are the three most used in the pro scene. I also believe, they're three of the most stable and "safe". I noticed that you didn't include the PartinG gateway style opening in your list of stable builds. Is it not quite as safe and stable as the other three? I've been playing around with that style after watching the Day[9] episode that covers it. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 12 2012 09:28 monk. wrote: Two base colossi attacks are neither safe nor macro builds. Colossi openings and templar openings all have their unique advantages and disadvantage. Neither style is considered better than the other. I will tell you that out of all PvT openings, this, the CreatorPrime openings, and fast colossi into double forge are the three most used in the pro scene. I also believe, they're three of the most stable and "safe". | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:11 monk. wrote: Maybe I misunderstand, but isn't this a high templar opening? I'm talking about the PartinG build with the huge gateway attack at 8-10 minutes--sometimes off of a double expand. | ||
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