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SexElephant
2 Posts
On July 25 2012 21:53 Black[CAT] wrote: Come to think of it, where is Spanishiwa now and what was so special about him? Still at college and streams most afternoons. He brought the 3 hatch no gas (ice fisher) build to the masses. A great stream to watch and has a cool one note document that has very useful information he collected from watching pros play | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On July 26 2012 06:15 Dunmer wrote: Also can anybody actually cheese this guy? Sometimes Stephano just knows whats coming to him and defends it. Its incredible. I've noticed that too, seems to always know ahead of time somehow. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 26 2012 04:00 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: There is no bigger lie in this scene than the idea that Wc3 players have great micro. Pretty much all the best micro players in the world are Korean and almost all of them (except Polt) were Brood War players. The WC3 pros have great micro, even in SC2. The thing that separates the high-end Koreans like MC apart from players like Grubby or Stephano is that MC played BW and can generally macro better and faster, leaving more room for micro. On July 26 2012 06:01 The_DarkAngelz wrote: One thing that he gains (and i gain too is the awereness of map...some people used to say i was maphacker...) but the thing is that he takes longer to go a each hatchery so he can see what's going on in mini-map more time and more often, so he can react like a seconds faster... The thing is that i can't do this at high speed but if i could....i'd have the "Stephano" map awereness ! =P ^^ This is actually probably Stepahano's main strength; he has INCREDIBLE map awareness. He never misses things like drops or probe movement on the minimap, and 99% of the time he reacts almost instantly with beautiful game sense and quick decision making. I honestly believe that no other pro can brag the map awareness that Stephano has. His mechanics are sloppy from time to time, and his build times, although they are fairly standard, range 10-20 seconds earlier/later and sometimes he'll miss taking a geyser or two. He even says that he doesn't use the timer for his build, he just kind of feels out the build. His builds don't have the perfect, crisp timings of players like NesTea or IdrA, but the strategies he does allows for that breathing room. On July 26 2012 21:35 SexElephant wrote: Come to think of it, where is Spanishiwa now and what was so special about him? Still at college and streams most afternoons. He brought the 3 hatch no gas (ice fisher) build to the masses. A great stream to watch and has a cool one note document that has very useful information he collected from watching pros play[/QUOTE] I believe Spanishiwa is dealing with college right now, so he's kind of busy. He's never been a top tier player, but I've been amazed at his progress, slowly getting better and better, using his now-not-unique style (lol) to keep opponent's thinking. | ||
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hughie-d
45 Posts
On July 27 2012 02:32 TangSC wrote: I've noticed that too, seems to always know ahead of time somehow. I actually remember Polt beating him with a Maurder/Hellion all in in the final game of the open bracket at MLG. I then remember at the very next tournament, I think Polt tried it again in game 2 maybe, Stephano shut it down so hard. He is an incredibly quick learner, I actually think the more he plays people the better will become. It happens alot with Stephano, thats why cheeses are so weak against him, if it works once it won't work again. Its why MC does well against him, his all-ins are kinda uniqe to MC style. I think mentally he is hands down the strongest player out there. He does not seem to go on tilt and is very capable of moving on from a game and start anew. Also he has the rare quality that I really only associated with the likes of Polt/MKP/MVP/Nestea, where he is never beaten until WP/Gratz appears. He has turned some games where tons of other Zergs are "fuck it, bring on Game 2" around. Did anyone see game 1 on Antiga Shipyard against Oz. That push from OZ was coming to kill stephano, the whole point of that build was that stephano will only have an un maxed ling/roach/infestor army versus 8 sentries/blink stalkers and immortals, yet stephano with arguably worse upgrades and worse composition crushed that attack. He also identifies where he is behind in a game where his advantage lies. In the game with MKP where he landed "dat fungal" and smashed that army, Stephano knew he was behind in economy/tech but he also knew with his maxed low tech army of roaches lings banelings and couple of infestors he had a mobilty that could take map control, what did he do with that advantage? He aggressively spread creep. He knew that MKP comp was powerful but slow, he knew MKP had to either come onto the creep to do damage or he could slow him down enough to tech to a better army/economy. These decisions are what make him different. If he sees that mutas will work, he will drop infestors in an instant *Game 3 of Stephano vs Ryung. His skills with his micro is fantastic, what happens every other zerg with roach ling? FF and immortals GG. With stephano he always trades well. His macro is sufficient, he does miss injects but his fast tech heavy ups style means that larva is not as important as it is to a macro based player like Idra/Ret (Idra especially likes a moving infestors and ret will try to overrun you). Game 3 with Ryung is another example of Stephano's skill. I honestly think no other zerg in the world comes back against Ryung in that position, Ryung is a near perfect Terran, he does not make that many mistakes. I don't think Stephano will ever adopt the Korean training style, but I do think the more exposure he has with Korean opposition, the better he will become. Also his understanding of the game in ZvP and ZvT is really high. Infestor Ling is stephano's build, using Ultra's against Terran was stephano again. Roach/Ling against P was Stephano's idea, and if you pay attention he is already transitioning out of it, while everyone else is starting to use it. He no longer gets the +1 missile attack, he no puts mild pressure on and uses ling infestor with melee upgrades. I think Stephano has the potential to become the best player in the world but it all depends on his ability to apply himself. There are some subtle changes in his play to suggest his aiming to be more competitive, like always getting an early gase, sometimes for speed only some times for an all in! Why does he do this, he does it because if he didn't players like MVP could exploit him (like say Naniwa who always opens with Nexus first). | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On July 26 2012 10:06 worldpeace30 wrote: It sounds like you're under the false impression that either Korean pros have 100% and Warcraft 3 pros had 0% micro or the other way around. That's not a very good argument. BroodWar professionals have phenomenal micro but so did Warcraft 3 professionals. Warcraft 3 is 95% micro 5% macro where as Starcraft 2 is a lot less micro and a lot more macro. Broodwar required a lot of micro but we haven't seen the best BroodWar players transition to SC2 yet. There is zero correlation between having great micro and playing Wc3 or BW. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:35 ineversmile wrote: Why is this thread in the Strategy section of the forum? It's basically a fan club thread. I'm finding almost nothing of strategic content here, and it keeps getting bumped over more relevant topics. Sorry you feel that way, I will keep creating more specific content relating to Stephano's style of Zerg. Here's a link to a lesson on the Stephano-style ZvP, holding the 4gate, and also a few late-game considerations: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/326318271 | ||
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zylog
Canada943 Posts
ZvP Roach ling into infestor ling into broodlord (standard) Roach drop in main with burrow move to natural Mass ling/bane drops into turtling with infestors/spines for the counterattack Double spire muta into base trade Muta into infestor/broodlord 2 base infestor ling Infestor spine wall into brood lord rush Roach queen timing attack Mass hydra only (this was really terrible though tbh) 3 Base hydra/roach timing attack 10 pool ZvT Speedling only with drops Roach ling pressure into expand (or allin) Roach ling bane pressure into expand (or allin) Ling infestor into brood lords Ling infestor into ultras 2/2 Ling infestor baneling bust Muta/ling/bane Double spire muta into base trade ZvZ 13 pool baneling allin 8 speedling expand into 3 spines speedling expand into banelings hatch first into speedling (standard) 2 base muta ling 2 base infestor ling +1 roach ling timing attacks roach ling bane timing attacks 2/2 mass roach multipronged attacks roach/hydra/infestor speedling only (this was amusing to watch) proxy hatch in the middle of the map The point is, even when Stephano is thrown off his game he is very adaptable and has a lot of builds he can go to. Also, since some of these non-standard builds have their weaknesses he gets to play from behind much more often than if he simply tried to play his most efficient build all the time. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On July 27 2012 07:20 TangSC wrote: Sorry you feel that way, I will keep creating more specific content relating to Stephano's style of Zerg. Here's a link to a lesson on the Stephano-style ZvP, holding the 4gate, and also a few late-game considerations: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/326318271 Nevering missing a chance for dat stream promo  | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
Poll: Poll #1: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play? Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key (94) Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead! (19) Be confident, relaxed, focused. SC2 is as much psychological as it is mechanical. (12) Know your opponents' timings. Planning your responses ahead saves time spent thinking. (7) Be consistent. If you use the same build/style each game, decision-making is that much easier. (5) Other (I will post a comment explaining) (3) Know the many mechanics that save you time. Time is the most important resource in SC2. (2) 142 total votes Your vote: Poll #1: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play? (Vote): Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
However I think the poll is missing an option for sheer quality of macro in all situations. Perhaps that's too generic and not useful to anyone wanting to emulate him though. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
-Plays safe style = makes enough units at all stages to be safe if doesn't know what opponent isn't doing, doesn't skip that much corners. -No flashy gimmicky play -Hardly ever makes big blunders at any stage of the game when sober -Good late game | ||
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Berceno
Spain401 Posts
naniwa is the only god foreigner, if next season stephano performs well in gsl I will shut up but now, it's not enough for me | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:19 Kasu wrote: I think the most-overlooked key to Stephano's skill is his engagements. People often focus on his timings, builds or scouting but his engagements are among the best I see of any zergs. However I think the poll is missing an option for sheer quality of macro in all situations. Perhaps that's too generic and not useful to anyone wanting to emulate him though. Yeah you're right I could have included a macro option. | ||
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Split.
Switzerland234 Posts
Besides that: I am not sure why you want to break Stephano's play down. First of all it would only really help the best of best players, because a lot of it is standard stuff. He hits timings, has incredible minimap awareness, engages brilliantly, etc. All the small details that make his play his own are mostly interesting for pros (not to say other players cant learn from him) Want to become good? Play perfect. So you are basically asking "what's the best way of playing zerg" and take stephano as an example. That brings me to my second point: Why Stephano? There are tons of zerg to learn from. Taking one particular maybe easier to start from, but in the end you want to take a look at all worldclass zergs to answer that question. Don't let these word discourage you in your endeavor, I appreciate it, as we can all learn from it. It only feels a bit random. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:52 Split. wrote: Had to laugh at "best foreign Zerg player in the world" Besides that: I am not sure why you want to break Stephano's play down. First of all it would only really help the best of best players, because a lot of it is standard stuff. He hits timings, has incredible minimap awareness, engages brilliantly, etc. All the small details that make his play his own are mostly interesting for pros (not to say other players cant learn from him) Want to become good? Play perfect. So you are basically asking "what's the best way of playing zerg" and take stephano as an example. That brings me to my second point: Why Stephano? There are tons of zerg to learn from. Taking one particular maybe easier to start from, but in the end you want to take a look at all worldclass zergs to answer that question. Don't let these word discourage you in your endeavor, I appreciate it, as we can all learn from it. It only feels a bit random. Well actually I just randomly decided to download Stephano's most recent replay pack and analyse it for myself. I started watching one of the games and already learned quite a bit, so I thought I may as well stream what I'm learning because there might be others who benefit from it. I'm a high master Zerg player but my analysis of Stephano isn't perfect, and there are certainly very important things that I overlook. I thought it'd be fun to open up a discussion to get others' insight on what we can learn from him, so that I can take a closer look at these things when I analyse future pro games. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:31 Berceno wrote: Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead! naniwa is the only god foreigner, if next season stephano performs well in gsl I will shut up but now, it's not enough for me Being a GSL pro is a huge thing but it is not for every player, Stephano say's he rarely plays which in GSL format could cost him games. Take MVP for example, the man owns GSL but sucks at foreign events because hes not very good at the format. Stephano could be the opposite! | ||
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Symbiote
United States49 Posts
Cool Calm Collected. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
1. Map awareness: Almost everyone has said this and they're right. Map awareness allows you to prepare for your opponent's army, defend early cheese attempts, engage your opponent's army better, lose fewer drones to harassment etc. Map awareness is a function of how often you look at the minimap and also your ability to keep focused and multitask since if you have trouble defending drops, taking expansions, spreading creep, all at more or less the same time you can't also pay attention to the minimap, but Stephano can because he also has the best multitasking of any zerg (see next item). 2. Multitasking: This is of course extremely difficult to measure but a reasonable proxy for multitasking is how often you see a player "fall apart" when the pressure is on; how often you see them lose stray units; how often you see them run their zerglings into an opponent's army; etc. With Stephano it always seems like he's able to deal with whatever you throw at him at however many locations you throw at him, and if he can't it's usually because something else that happened put him too far behind (like going for roach base all in and failing to do much damage). Also he has without question the best late game control and late game of any zerg; this is in part a testament to Stephano's micro but it's also a testament to his ability to do a bunch of things really well at once. Even DRG can look mortal in late games now and again; Stephano is simply terrifying. 3. Micro: One of the more impressive moments from the recent MLG IMO was when Stephano was about to lose to Oz on Daybreak. Oz had 4 Colossi and a bunch of stalkers and was approaching Stephano's third. Stephano's roach ling army was probably smaller than Oz's; nevertheless Stephano weaved his forces through Oz's army and sniped all four of Oz's Colossi and made out with a few units, to top it off. He lost the game, but all things considered, that had to have been one of the most cost efficent engagements of all time. Also I definitely think it helps that he binds his eggs to hot keys; if you do this, you are much less likely to have bad rallies and much more likely to have all of your units engaging when you need them to. 4. Macro:Stephano's macro has slipped just a bit because he literally is not practicing at all. But it's not as bad as some people think it is and often his supply blocks, especially against P, are more or less part of the build. He's probably only top 5 in tvp and pvz. Stephano is the guy who maxed out at something like 10'50" in a zvp. You cannot do that with his gas timings unless you do every single thing not well, but perfectly. He also maxed out at 12'00 in a game where he lost his hatch and built 8 early lings (and was harassing the P while doing so with his lings). These were ladder games if you're wondering. 5. Mechanics: These have slipped a bit - perhaps, but his ability to inject is still very good, and is probably better than every one else, save for DRG perhaps, when it comes to doing so under pressure. Whether his mechanics are slipping is something that needs to be determined by looking at 100 recent games and comparing it to 100 of his earlier games and then comparing those games to Symbol's etc.- you actually have to do some sort of data analysis; noting that one of his queens looked like it had high energy at the 15 minutes mark in a game versus so and so is only anecdotal evidence. Ipp from RageQuit looked at Stephano's inject in a tvz game at the 10 minute mark and his average gap was sub 5 seconds (which is essentially perfect). I generally think claims about Stephano's mechanics not being that good are generally a product of Artosis saying something to that effect at one point in a game against Polt. 6. Genius Factor: This guy is clearly a genius -- he works less and accomplishes more at this point other than an exceptionally small number of players and he's done this without a coach, without living in a team house (for any extended duration), without exceptional practice partners, etc. At one point he basically had "solved" zvp and he's responsible for convincing Koreans that ling-infestor > muta-ling-bling in zvt, as a general matter at least. He's shown an innate ability for figuring things out more readily than just about everyone else. Just when you think he's falling behind, he comes through and stomps a bunch of players you thought he was going to lose to (hero and mc come to mind). He is IMO the most talented player in SC2. If he had the BW work ethic, he would be far and away the best player in the world; as it stands, given the relative strength of Zerg nowadays, he's probably not too far away from being the best player in the world. | ||
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