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What Makes Stephano the God of "Foreign" Zerg?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2k5qe.jpg)
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen!
I had the pleasure of attending the NASL Season 3 Grand Finals in Toronto (my first visit to a major SC2 tournament!) and I got to witness Stephano leave a trail of dismembered Protoss units in his wake. Stephano didn't win the NASL, he owned it. After the 4-1 victory against MC and the 4-0 victory against Alicia, my Protoss friend Kyle turned to me and asked:
"Why is Stephano so good?"
+ Show Spoiler +"Because he makes roaches and lings," I said, grinning and perfectly content with the accuracy of my answer.
"No really, I mean any Zerg can make roaches." Kyle said. "Why does Stephano win all these tournaments?" Apparently he wanted a more detailed response out of me.
"Well...he gets more units earlier...his timings are..." I began.
"Everyone knows the timings," Kyle interrupted, "fast third, 6min gas, 7min warren/evo." He was right. The timings aren't what makes Stephano so unstoppable.
"It's also scouting. He knows his opponents' timings, what to look for, and how to respond to what he sees." A fair point, I thought, but not enough convincing for Kyle.
"Overlords are pretty fast, any Diamond-Master players can scout this information." Damnit, he was right again. I opened my mouth to make another point, when I realized something - I don't really know if there is one thing what makes Stephano so damn good. I paused for a moment to make as strong an argument as I could, one that would silence Kyle's objections and allow me to watch the victory celebration dance party in peace:
"He just knows his shit, man"
And indeed, he does. On the most basic level, he's fully aware of his and his opponents' timings, but more importantly, his game sense and knowledge are on a whole other playing field. There's games where Stephano is pushing out his roach/ling army against a Protoss who has walled in his third with Sentries/Immortals, and I'm thinking to myself "there's no way he can break this." But he does. With some form of sick multi-pronged attack, Stephano manages to overwhelm the Protoss and take out his third (while somehow slipping lings into his main).
Then another game, Protoss is making a huge push with Sentry/Immortal/Stalker/Colossus. Stephano's sitting back with Infestor/Corruptor/Roach/Ling and a greater spire that just started. I'm thinking "You can't engage that without broodlords...it's over, there's no way Stephano can hold off this 3-base Protoss timing." But, again, he does! He splits up his lings/roaches for a flank, lays down some infested terran, focuses down the colossus with the corruptors, and next thing you know he's maxed out with broods, planting a manner hatch at the Protoss third.
In other words, there isn't one thing that makes Stephano the best foreign Zerg player in the world. It's a combination of extensive game knowledge, precision in timings and mechanics, and perhaps a few "X Factors." My goal in sparking this discussion is to point out these X Factors, and see if we lesser Zergs can benefit from some extensive analysis of this talented French Zerg player.
So, my goal with this thread (with your help) is to break down Stephano's play as much as possible. I want this thread to serve as a resource to find content on how to emulate (or try to emulate) his play style. I started by downloading Stephano's most recent replay pack and streaming analysis of as many of the games as I could, and I will continue doing so as long as I have replays. To help me build this analysis and discussion, I ask that you all:
1) Comment and provide any insights you might have into how Stephano has achieved his success, and what specifically makes him so good.
2) Submit replays to be analysed/casted. They don't have to be from the finals of NASL (though I would like those replays!), they can be from smaller tournaments or ladder games as well.
3) Link to any written content/video content that you feel is relevant. We can compile a list of helpful casted games, stream vods, etc.
Polls:
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Poll #1: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play?Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key (94) 66% Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead! (19) 13% Be confident, relaxed, focused. SC2 is as much psychological as it is mechanical. (12) 8% Know your opponents' timings. Planning your responses ahead saves time spent thinking. (7) 5% Be consistent. If you use the same build/style each game, decision-making is that much easier. (5) 4% Other (I will post a comment explaining) (3) 2% Know the many mechanics that save you time. Time is the most important resource in SC2. (2) 1% 142 total votes Your vote: Poll #1: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play? (Vote): Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key
(Vote): Be confident, relaxed, focused. SC2 is as much psychological as it is mechanical.
(Vote): Know your opponents' timings. Planning your responses ahead saves time spent thinking.
(Vote): Be consistent. If you use the same build/style each game, decision-making is that much easier.
(Vote): Know the many mechanics that save you time. Time is the most important resource in SC2.
(Vote): Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead!
(Vote): Other (I will post a comment explaining)
Stephano Stream/Replay Packs:
+ Show Spoiler +
Stream Analysis/Lessons of Stephano-Style:
+ Show Spoiler +
With your help, I look forward to expanding this discussion!
- Tang
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good topic but I'd like to see some more technical details about his play and not this cheesy empty writing
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On July 25 2012 04:29 BongSniper69 wrote:
good topic but I'd like to see some more technical details about his play and not this cheesy empty writing
I'm sorry if you find the writing cheesy, I was just having fun. If you watch the seven videos I did this morning on Stephano, you'll see it's more technical 
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I think one of the nicest things about Stephano is that he always seems relatviely laidback about the game. He says things and behaves sometimes like he just doesn't care as much, and he has made a point of lettign everyone know that pro gaming is basically a means to an end for him. The casters said at one point during MLG that he looked shaken, and then he proved them wrong and won 2 in a row to take the set. He's such a relaxed player and I don't think the pressure gets to him. So he's relaxed, calm and more focused. More of an X factor than anything else i think.
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I think Stephano just puts a lot more thought into each engagement than most Zergs. Maybe it's because he is more relaxed? I know personally I find it very hard to just think clearly in the middle of a game where I'm already using like 120 apm(I'm around 900-1000pt masters) just to keep my macro going. The result is a lot of just horrible engagements where I throw away huge numbers of lings for nothing, because they ran in ahead of my army and things like this. Stephano though not only never lets that happen but goes a step further and really thinks 2 steps ahead of his opponent tactically. He is constantly flanking armys, putting units where they need to be ( lings on the side of the army where no zealots are, roaches against zealots, more roaches flanking for collosi, corrupters doing the same, infesters coming in from good angle to land ideal fungals ..ect ect ).
I know watching my own replays I can find so many engagements where if I just relaxed for 5 sec and really thought about an engagement before it happened I could have won easily instead of lost, Stephano seems to have this ability naturally ( or maybe he just learned it ). I think Stephano has made it obvious though how important it is, and how much most Zerg's lack just using smart tactics in engagements.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
He is just on top of every single important aspect of starcraft. And he maintains that level of macro, micro, crysis management, x-factor, whatever in 99% of his games. That's what makes him so different, most pros shine sometimes and then they just sink, because its so tiring (more mentally than physicaly) for them to maintain so high level of starcraft. But Stephano does this so natuarally and with out any special effort.
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I think you three are on to something when you talk about Stephano's laidback, almost carefree nature. He's definitely able to keep his focus in those pressure-filled situations where other players would get flustered/tunnel vision.
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308 Posts
Most Zerg's don't play Zerg like Stephano do to get where he is now. The fact that he did Warcraft III *AND* decided to use Zerg as a race makes him ridiculous.
You see, most W3 pros end up choosing Protoss, and Protoss as a race is designed to be very position and micro based. Zerg on the other hand is designed to be good with macro. When you micro very well with good positioned Zerg armies and you already have macro down, then you come up with an almost unstoppable race.
That being said, Stephano would probably not be as successful if he were playing Protoss. When you have vastly cost(time and dps inclusive)-efficient units as Zerg and you use them right, you will win. And that's the point I've been trying to drive across by pointing out that Protoss itself includes mechanics for easily helping your units "BE *more* cost-effective", but the units not actually being cost-effective just on their own.
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The only thing I've noticed as being conspicuous every time I've seen him play a competitive match is his attention to getting great engagements. He just seems more pre-occupied than any other Zerg (and perhaps other players, period.) with setting up a great flank/concave/ etc. even if it takes him an extra 30 secs. He's very patient and attentive in this respect. Just my two cents...
edit: whoops, didn't notice Synk above me... that...
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In a few days I'll put up a poll with your guys' and others' suggestions of why Stephano is the best, and see what everyone votes on ^^
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My take is that, compared to other zergs:
1) As suggested by others above, Stephano invests more time getting good engagements, and he also gets more macro-hatches late game to balance this.
2) Of the zergs with good macro, he is more willing to apply pressure, and trade units earlier in the game, than most others. eg roach-ling-bane aggression against Terran, while taking a third and getting evos for upgrades behind it, as opposed to just maxing on drones asap.
3) His macro is very good.
4) He rallies his hatches separately, so he can choose which one the units come from in case he is being attacked, and he hotkeys eggs, this greatly helps with crisis management. You never see random groups of units sitting in the middle of the map doing nothing (common for other foreign zergs), and likewise you don't see mis-rallied overlords dying in the middle of the map for no reason, I think this is all connected to how he hotkeys eggs.
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lol why cant you write these stuff instead of just posting the videos? there are people who wants to read stuff and cant just watch videos because of work :/
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Its a combination of great scouting, game sense, and best micro at the moment as mentioned above.
He does not lose one milli-second (pun intended) when he builds workers, cause he just hits 4 (all hatches) and q (larva and also build drone) – mostly grid layout. So by just putting q down he builds a drone as soon as any larva appears. In combination with his fast mechanics and his game sense he is able to get nearly the maximum units at any given time and makes them worth more with his micro. His easy macro style also frees up “memory” from the brain to focus more on micro. With easy macro style I mean that he doesn’t need to stretch his fingers far away, and always puts his eggs into his groups 1 and 2 while morphing. So he keeps himself always organized. he can be even greedier by doing this, because his defending units will participate in a fight as soon as they hatch.
One weakness is his injects. His Inject style is slow compared to other pro zergs. That might be why he is so great with roaches, cause it forgives “sloppy” injecting as long as he drones up perfectly. Even if he gets supply blocked several times it is easy for him to catch up because he will have enough larva to hit his timing against toss! The need for an earlier macro hatch when he plays muta ling could be delayed by organizing his injects in a way that he would only need 1 second for it before focussing on micro again. i think his method today is to hit 3 (all queens) then click on the minimap to go to one of his hatcheries, click minimap, hit x for inject, left click on the center of the main screen to inject hatch. (i think he does not minimap injecting, but navigation to hatches and click on the hatch). thats time inefficient, and pulls away focus.
He tabs a lot, so he sees when new larva spawned, and this is his reminder to inject again. one thing i would like to see more pros doing is to tab a single hatch from time to time, to see the progress of the larva timer. combined with faster injecting = gosu!!
As far as I know he doesn’t use camera hotkeys. He gets away with it because he clicks fast on the minimap. If he would spend the extra mile to improve on camera hotkeys it might make him even stronger.
Sometimes it seems that the only one that can defeat him is Stephano himself.
Just to add: He uses a French keyboard layout (stephano usa!!), so he actually hits 4aa to build a drone (AZERTY) (QSDFG) and q is his attack key, just like english keyboard grid with A for attack instead of T and Q for larva / drones.
At the moment he gets away with all this "imperfections", because his skills outweight them by far. He has his workarounds.
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Belize176 Posts
He makes more than 40 drones per game on average. Unlike others in this thread.
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" 4-1 victory against MC" was it not 4-2?
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
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On July 25 2012 05:53 paddyz wrote:
" 4-1 victory against MC" was it not 4-2?
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
I'm not trying to take anything away from Alicia, MC, or naniwa. They're all awesome and should have their owns threads...but I don't play Protoss  I also really enjoy watching Stephano play, and think Zergs can learn a lot from studying him.
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" 4-1 victory against MC" was it not 4-2?
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
I'm not a Stephano "fan boi" I just see him win games from positions that were certain losses for other pros and myself on the ladder. Happens all the time where I'm like " well he's just completely dead" and then he just wins some crazy battle that I can barely even understand and all the sudden he's right back in the game. He's also one of the most consistent ZvP'rs around and my ZvP is really in a pathetic place lately so I try to glean what I can from his games.
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I think the most important part of Stephano's play is his positioning and general micro. As much as his macro is (in his own opinion) lacking sometimes, he just does more with less when actually using those units.
Especially, on Antiga Shipyard, he quite often has units down each ramp of the central highground to prepare for flanks before the opponent has even moved out yet. I think his first game against Oz at MLG perfectly showcases his talent when he comes down to winning battles in less than favorable situations.
On July 25 2012 05:53 paddyz wrote:
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
You for sure do seem quite biased sir ^^ As much as I agree that calling him God might be a little exaggerated, if he beats Alicia 4-0 he definitely is better than him. But well, let's not carry this into a haters vs fanboys thread.
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On July 25 2012 06:32 ArcticRaven wrote:I think the most important part of Stephano's play is his positioning and general micro. As much as his macro is (in his own opinion) lacking sometimes, he just does more with less when actually using those units. Especially, on Antiga Shipyard, he quite often has units down each ramp of the central highground to prepare for flanks before the opponent has even moved out yet. I think his first game against Oz at MLG perfectly showcases his talent when he comes down to winning battles in less than favorable situations. Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:53 paddyz wrote:
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
You for sure do seem quite biased sir ^^ As much as I agree that calling him God might be a little exaggerated, if he beats Alicia 4-0 he definitely is better than him. But well, let's not carry this into a haters vs fanboys thread.
I used the term "God" metaphorically 
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United States4883 Posts
Quite honestly, for a long time, I concluded that the #1 reason Stephano was good was because he had a unique and, quite honestly, much easier playstyle. I think anyone can agree that Stephano's quick 3-base ZvT with double ups was far superior to the 2-base muta strategies that were out at the time. And Stephano was the first person to really get a good grip on solid 3-base timings in ZvP. For a long time, I simply assumed it was his ingenious builds that gave him his success, not his actual skill.
HOWEVER, as we've seen the metagame shift over to Stephano style and EVERYONE doing the same things with the same timings, Stephano has STILL been wrecking. Even with the brilliant protoss immortal/sentry hard counter to the famous "Stephano max" strategy, Stephano has STILL overcomes it with just brilliant maneuvers and clever positioning.
So...in all honestly, I suspected Stephano would eventually be figured out and fall. But we've seen him get figured out and still continue fighting, beating some of the best players in the world time and time again. Right now Stephano is probably the most successful player in foreign tournaments; I would like to see him play in GSL, but I don't think that's his style, and I don't know if he ever will participate in GSL when he has so much success in several different tournaments worldwide.
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On July 25 2012 06:32 ArcticRaven wrote:I think the most important part of Stephano's play is his positioning and general micro. As much as his macro is (in his own opinion) lacking sometimes, he just does more with less when actually using those units. Especially, on Antiga Shipyard, he quite often has units down each ramp of the central highground to prepare for flanks before the opponent has even moved out yet. I think his first game against Oz at MLG perfectly showcases his talent when he comes down to winning battles in less than favorable situations. Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:53 paddyz wrote:
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
You for sure do seem quite biased sir ^^ As much as I agree that calling him God might be a little exaggerated, if he beats Alicia 4-0 he definitely is better than him. But well, let's not carry this into a haters vs fanboys thread.
Then let's see him do it consistently. Again, he still has a losing record to MC and Oz just smashed him.
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I think Stephano's a great player, an amazing Zerg. Don't get me wrong. I just think he gets a little too much hype.
Do I think he can stand toe-to-toe with GSL players? Sure. I just don't think he's invincible in the way MC was a year ago or MVP was a while back.
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On July 25 2012 05:53 paddyz wrote:
" 4-1 victory against MC" was it not 4-2?
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
Lol att the Naniwa fanboy, what Stephano has achieved is far more than anything Naniwa has done, and he even confirms it on Twitter.
I may do like MC and say: "Stephano has made 3x more money than him, so it requires three naniwas to be able to compete with his level".
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"The GOD of Foreighn Zerg?" ....
.... How about the best foreighner. He's not the god of anything. God is reserved for players like Boxer and Flash. The Zergy's get carried away a little too easily.
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On July 25 2012 05:53 paddyz wrote:
" 4-1 victory against MC" was it not 4-2?
I cant really take this very seriously, he still has a losing record vs MC (who is in the final of GSL) and Alicia got to the finals of both NASL and MLG. . . both players are better then him, don't pretend he is out of their league, capable of "owning" or "dismembering" them at will.
I am not here to stir up all the fanboys, just to warn you to not get too carried away, the guy already has all the hype and credit he deserves, he doesn't need another thread just to over hype him more, imo at least.
Oz even tore him apart, twice, in his best matchup.
Stephano is not the God of zerg, he is no God, just someone over rated and over hyped.
If he gets as far as naniwa in GSL then he might deserve a thread
Knew the haters would come out of the woodwork eventually. How many events should he win or place top 3 in before he isn't "overhyped" anymore bud? Laughable post.
Enjoyed the thread so far. Others have said it (repeatedly) but I do believe it's the truth: patience and perfect engagements. He only fights in advantageous circumstances. A true master! Just think if he took the game more seriously.
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One thing I've noticed about stephano's zvp is that he seems to always play it the same way. I've never seen him go baneling, muta, ultra...or even hydra for that matter. I'd love to see how he plays vs a 2 stargate opener, or some other build where the "traditional" response incorporates a unit he doesn't often use
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Well, I can tell you what he doesn't do, and that is scouting. A lot of his games seem like he just doesn't care what the Protoss player does.
So either he has an insanely good deduction from the very little things that he does see, or he really just doesn't care apart from gas timings. Which, in conclusion, would mean what he does is good against ANYTHING Protoss can throw at him at time X. Or, as the other members stated, ZvP is a LOT about engagements.
Just think if he took the game more seriously.
He does.
His recent statement has been he will move to Korea and become the best player in the world.
I don't think you can get any more serious than that.
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On July 25 2012 08:06 Lobotomist wrote:
One thing I've noticed about stephano's zvp is that he seems to always play it the same way. I've never seen him go baneling, muta, ultra...or even hydra for that matter. I'd love to see how he plays vs a 2 stargate opener, or some other build where the "traditional" response incorporates a unit he doesn't often use
How many games of him have you actually seen? Because he throws mutas from time to time (like against MC at nasl), drops, ling-infestor. He baneling bust greedy protosses (like sase for example) to keep them honest and i'm pretty sure he played hydras to finish off squirtle at the red bul lan.
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On July 25 2012 07:53 mlspmatt wrote:
"The GOD of Foreighn Zerg?" ....
.... How about the best foreighner. He's not the god of anything. God is reserved for players like Boxer and Flash. The Zergy's get carried away a little too easily.
God is a title reserved for Terran BW players. Got it! ()
It's obviously a sensationalist title meant to get people to enter the thread. Dun get too bent out of shape about it! Either that, or start complaining about July's nickname to maintain consistency.
On-topic, I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread! Always down for some zergy play insight!
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On July 25 2012 08:47 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 08:06 Lobotomist wrote:
One thing I've noticed about stephano's zvp is that he seems to always play it the same way. I've never seen him go baneling, muta, ultra...or even hydra for that matter. I'd love to see how he plays vs a 2 stargate opener, or some other build where the "traditional" response incorporates a unit he doesn't often use How many games of him have you actually seen? Because he throws mutas from time to time (like against MC at nasl), drops, ling-infestor. He baneling bust greedy protosses (like sase for example) to keep them honest and i'm pretty sure he played hydras to finish off squirtle at the red bul lan.
Apparently not enough. I've basically only seen him do roach ling -> infestor -> corruptor -> broodlord. Got any good links?
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its not that he's particularly great, he just never makes any big errors.
simple :D
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Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
These are the kinds of uninformed posts that I knew would arise. Some random TL scrub posting about Stephano lacking skill; meanwhile, your P and T heroes are praising him. Back under your rock now. There you go. Stop trying to derail the thread with useless, malicious, and patently false bullshit. Thanks.
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What a silly topic. He just has a good combination of macro, micro and decision making like any of the top players. Nothing special to it, just skilled in what he does. Nothing unique or fancy about his style just solid all around.
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Knowing those facts you stated in the OP is one thing, properly making use of them and executing it with the needed multitasking is another. If your friend doesn't think that's good enough, I'd like to see him perform such execution in a game and not be at least GM. I can look over my replay and know why I lost easily (or often in game at that moment); it doesn't mean I suddenly have the mechanics and focus to correct them every game.
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An important part of his game is that his builds in every matchup allow him to attack without necessarilly commiting. This is what allows him to adapt to anything he sees; if he can do some damage he does it, if he needs to defend he has the manpower to do it and if it comes down to who macros more he has the army to make sure the opponent doesn't get too greedy.
In a way I'd say he's the least cheesy pro player I know. Everything he does is incredibly safe and good against everything. To me that's why he's doing so well on the ladder, or in tournaments that don't rely on preparation, and he's hesitant to participate to the GSL (well, other than the fact the GSL can be a bitch for the players) that tend to favour more "cheesy" players like MC.
Edit: I won't have the time to watch everything but your videos look very interesting Tang  And your guides are always well done so keep it up!
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Actually Stephano said himself that the weakest part of his play is his macro (injects, spending money, etc.) But what I think makes Stephano Stephano, is his amazing strategies and just knowing what to do. The are so intuitive and make sense even without scouting information. Like if a protoss goes 2 gate, all stephano is going to do is mass roach and kill you. simple yet so effective. Also devising his own strategies gives him an advantage along with that game sense of knowing to attack or not to attack is what makes him so great
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I think it's the mental side of things for Stephano in how he deals with pressure (of any type in the game). Yes he plays safe, has excellent mechanics etc that work for him, however when the unexpected happens...he just reacts appropriately and doesn't get flustered.
There is a book called Mind Gym where one of the points made is that people can peform 15% better or worse under pressure. In Sc2 you are talking about a very slim technical skill difference between top players. So a player who has the mental edge can effectively perform 30% better than an equally "skilled" opponent if that person actually performs worse under pressure.
Think about performing worse: you miss your depots, you forget a probe, you mis rally units, you lose overlords needlessly, you become to eager to engage. Little mistakes that they don't normally make start to crop up. That's a sign of a person not handling the pressure.
I know I can think of atleast one famous Zerg player who is an excellent player but when under pressure actually performs worse than what he would otherwise.
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It really think it's his decision making and the emphasis he places on engagements. Stephano's macro, despite what many fanboys think, really isn't that great and it can really hurt him sometimes, particularly in some ZvTs against top top terran i've seen him play. But his decision making is some of the best in the world. He rarely engages in battles he can't win, doesn't try to defend bases that he can't and just overall has great game sense during the game. I think the key thing is his engagements though. He is always looking for a way to flank or catch the army out of position, or get the best engagement possible against those scary pushes before hive. His macro often slips as a result of this, but it is often okay because he can use the banked up larva for a large amount of reinforcements.
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As it stands, players like Stephano are able to take control of a situation that appears extraordinarily disadvantageous and turn it into an advantage by playing tricks on his opponent. Every single game (however few) Stephano goes mutas his opponents are completely unprepared. MC lost to it in game 2? 3? of their series at NASL, and it was absolutely devastating. He even uses his perceived playstyle to his advantage.
He's also one of the few zergs that actively set up flanks. I started to do it in masters and I enjoyed a healthy boost to my winrate! Nonetheless my engagements aren't as perfect as Stephano's, who seems to just make stuff... work. Always a treat to watch.
In terms of macro, I think SC2 is at a weird point where impeccable macro is not totally required and can be overcome with sheer tactical advantages. Nestea is a similar case, who is considered, "a genius of starcraft" but does not have the mechanics to back it up, unfortunately. The game is still a ways from being figured out. That's part of the fun. I also think Stephano will leave the scene around then - it will be a sad day when he retires.
Nonetheless, the KeSPA pros like him for a reason. + Show Spoiler +
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
this post is something like 5 or 6 months old at least, lol.
Now from what I saw the true strenght in the Stpehano's play is his ability to engage his opponent with a risky but calculated attack, plus his micro of his units are the fastest I have witnessed from a PoV play, just watch his old sreams it's really stunning how fast he can control his units in a battle. And on top of that he knows when he need to attack or backup and which transisitions he needs to do, he knows when and what units he needs to reinfore his army etc.
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
You sir deserve a medal for your idiocy. It's quite obvious that you have absolutly no idea of the pro scene. Making a comparison between Spanishiwa and Stephano is pretty stupid.
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
Holy fucking shit is this a real post.
Even if you've done as little as look at the front page of TL every day, you'd see this is not the case.
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I'll suggest you to watch this video on Millenium portal made just before he went to NASL : http://www.millenium.org/starcraft-2/accueil/videos/videos-de-llewellys/71830-au-coeur-de-l-arene-avec-stephano-partie-1
Problem is this video is in french ;p (a good way for you all "foreigners" to take it with french ! :p)
Btw, he talks a lot in this video about his concerns playing Zerg, his defaults, what he thinks about the game, what makes him stronger (or weakier) against certain type of player, his view about the game itself and the scene, etc ...
A very interresting video that shows a lot about him and his view of the game.
For him, basically, what makes him stronger is his global view of the game and its mechanics.
he says, for example, that the way is approaching the game is not looking at BOs to reproduce or somethings like this, but the way he apprehends globaly the game, to see what would be strong, like the 3 hatch opening, which he came to by just sitting down and thinking about it. He says that DRG has kind the same approach as him because they came to the same conclusion and opening (3 bases / max roach/speedling) at the same time, which become popular later ...
He says too that his strength is knowing his opponents, and then that's why he like to play lots of events with people that he knows how to play against. He said that playing against people he doesn't know is quite disconcerting because he doesn't know what to expect, and that's why he likes now the way certain tournament are working (for example, MLG with only invited people) because he won't have the surprise to fight people he doesn't know ...
That is just a part of what he's discussing about him in this interview, there is a lot of other interresting things about him and his view of the game, so watch it and ... learn French first !! :p
btw, sorry for my bad english if some of my points aren't understandable :s
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I think that Stephano doesn't scout very often and he gets away with a lot of things that he shouldn't. And a lot of foreign commentators (I'm looking at Apollo, especially) show incredible bias when they commentate his games. See MKP vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom; MLG Anaheim.
He's a good player, but calling him a god is a complete joke.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
I just can't believe how many people think like he's just OK player, nothing special.
He is the only fucking foreigner from whom we can excpect to whipe the floor with koreans. I am not even a fan boy, nor zerg player, its just my opinion based on following the scene, tournaments, games...Stephano is soo good and succesfull that people think something is wrong if he takes the 4th place. Calling him GOD means nothing, just and expresion probably aiming at the fact that he is the star foreigner of every tournament he is in - i don't understand how that upset so many people.
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He's special by global standards, but the only standards that matter to me are Korean standards. He doesn't stand out amongst the elite.
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Is it possible to have that replay pack linked ?
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On July 25 2012 20:51 Karpfen wrote:
Is it possible to have that replay pack linked ?
twitch.tv/mstephano
replay packs are in the info section
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I think filterSC, who creates videos on youtube called "bronze to masters" actually started off his zerg videos on the theme of what makes Stephano so good. And if I remember correctly the thing he noticed was that his injects are really good and therefore he ends up making more units and drones then most other people.
His whole series follows from that premise; that you can basically win any game from bronze to platinum just by doing perfect injects, droning hard, and then making a ton of roaches to overwhelm the opponent.
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maybe you should study drg
step 1: become a mechanics god
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I don't think Stephano is overhyped. I mean, I don't think many people expected him to win NASL3 (espeically beating MC).
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Stephano is one of the absolute tip-top players in the world, all the rest are Code S Koreans. The reason he's so good is he plays an incredibly solid style, has arguably the best micro of any zerg and mentally is stronger than almost every other play. Nobody (sane) would argue that Stephano has the actualy skill of DRG (not that there's a huge difference, but if you watch them both playing well, the difference is clear), but Stephano stays calm and plays to his strengths in almost every game. Most players aren't able to deliver their best game-after-game, series-after-series like he does.
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Imo it is his army management. His macro is honestly not very good, nor is his general mechanics. But he stands out in the deciding battles because he spends time positioning three flanks, he pulls back units when forcefields land, he snipes sentries that have the most energy, he spreads his broodlords, list goes on. He puts a lot of thought and effort into his engagements to make sure he comes out ahead or trades efficiently, to make up for his "lacking" macro.
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
Obvious troll is obvious.
If you are not a troll I feel sorry for you
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using the word 'god' seem to offend people, maybe you shouldnt do that. ( you can call idra the god of "eg house" zerg)
i think it is stephano's engagements. he seem to pay a lot of attention into the ratio of units and after a battle, seem to lose a certain proportion of each unit. especially obvious versus large protoss and terran armies
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
Come to think of it, where is Spanishiwa now and what was so special about him?
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the only thing that could actually be outstanding about stephano is his army management. His multi-pronged attacks and flanks are really damn good. It might be because he got his builds down perfectly and therefore has more time in-game to focus on that(not implying that other pros dont, but for example staphano has been using his max roach build quite a while and refined it and maybe that gives him more time to think about how to crush the 3rd base in-game).
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The answer is very simple.
He doesn't make mistakes.
More precisely, he doesn't make bad decisions. This may seem ridiculous, but just watch his stream. You can't see a fault in anything he does. When you watch other players you can almost always see them making some mistakes or not doing things optimally. Not with Stephano. Most of his losses come from his opponents taking a great risk somehow.
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Stephano is very well suited for big lan tournaments where he can play a ton of games and no one has prepared for him specifically. Im interested to see how he would do in the gsl when someone can analyze his play and come up with a game plan. Imagine MVP and Stephano playing a semifinal match in the gsl. MVP would have teams of people and coaches helping him plan a match to beat him. I just couldn't see it going well for stephano.
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On July 25 2012 23:37 kme wrote:
The answer is very simple.
He doesn't make mistakes.
More precisely, he doesn't make bad decisions. This may seem ridiculous, but just watch his stream. You can't see a fault in anything he does. When you watch other players you can almost always see them making some mistakes or not doing things optimally. Not with Stephano. Most of his losses come from his opponents taking a great risk somehow.
I agree completely with the not making bad decisions part.
But you definitely don't need to take risks to beat him. Oz wasn't taking risks at MLG last week he just straight up outplayed him. They key to beating Stephano (just like any top player) is to play really, really well and not make mistakes.
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Stephano has that look of a person who never got beaten down and broken by life. It is extremely rare. The end result is that he will never second guess himself and just do what he think/feels is right. Which is the most powerfull thing. Essentially he has never gotten in his own way on the road to success. He has just methodically done everything he could come up with to become what he is.
Stephano has understood the meaning of his life. It has translated into great skill & coolness in stressfull situations.
You will never be able to copy that psychology. By you will never I mean just do it faggot ^^ Accept that you are the greatest thing to ever happen in the universe. Use that confidence to achieve whatever you want to achive.
TLDR It's not the build order, the mechanics, the multitasking, the micro or the macro. It's that what's the next step towards perfection mentality.
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Dominican Republic275 Posts
- He doesn't really care weather he wins or looses (or so he states), it seems like now he might be a little more concern but more for the fans that himself, he likes puting on a show.
- He tries stuff on ladder (o did for a long time), was one of the few to still use utralisks in all three matchups on ladder.
- He said various times that he just "feels" the other races timing. IdrA actually stated the same thing when he saw him play at the EG House.
- He always has said that Army control in SC2 is critical. Good example is his comment about Sheth a good player that has "terrible army control"
- He has a very good Egg mechanic. He adds the units to the control groups while they are in eggform, always had and it avoids alot of mistakes like overlords rallied in the middle of the map and alot of useless movement like selecting 54654564564 links running across the map.
- He puts alot of thinking into the game. He did state recently that while he didn't practice that much, he tought alot about what he sould do. Obviously at his nivel execution isn't neceseraly a problem.
- He learns. There is very few things that catch him off gard twice. "Immortal sentry push is not OP, I just have the wrong answer to it"
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Stephano plays like a terran player in a zerg's body. For terran, positioning is crucial to winning because units are so squishy. Well, Stephano is amazing at positioning and uses his units to the best of his advantage, and that helps him crush armies that would have got slaughered with a regular a-move. That's only one reason why he's so good though,
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Stephano is SO damn impressive...hell, Jaedong even said he seeks to emulate his style. Like the article!
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
Stephano is so much better than spanishiwa will ever be...
He also wins with a variety of builds and playstyles.
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I feel that part of his success is that a lot of his decisions comes from his unconscious so he never has to put much of though to his play. Now what i mean with this is that first you can compare this to typing with your computer. A kid who first time sees keyboard and stats typing he need constantly check where the buttons are, however, as you get more experienced you don't need to check the keyboard anymore, the keys are like a your pockets to you, you know them thoroughly. Basically you have achieved a typing skill where you no longer put almost any thought to your typing and pushing all those letters is done without much thinking.
This is how Stephano is so good, whenever he's in tough position on battlefield in SC2 he unconsciously does the right thing because he has been able to great this huge network of SC2 which allows him to make top-notch strategical decisions.
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stephano uses 2 hot keys for his army late game.
that is why he is so good and gosu.
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stephano knows his shit. like no other zerg knows.
omg if he played terran, he would have won a couple gsls already.
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From the games I have seen of Stephano he knows how to micro his lings fantastically to get the best value from them instead of just trying to swarm with them like other foreign Zerg professionals.
Most Zergs A-move their lings but Stephano goes past the army and swings around even when under heavy fire in order to penetrate the other army really well.
that's one thing Warcraft 3 players have, very good Units sense and it just carries over in Stephanos case.
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One thing to note as well, is that he has a "sense" of the game that most other pro's lack. If you see him playing in DH (I think at least), you can see that the commentators note this as well. When a protoss hides a pylon somewhere, 99% of zerg players don't even look for it. He actually finds it right away, or misses it by just a few inches of the screen. It's like he knows what his opponent is doing, without even seeing it, and I'm not sure if it is experience, "a sixth sense" or really good preparations before every game and player.
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On July 26 2012 02:32 worldpeace30 wrote:
From the games I have seen of Stephano he knows how to micro his lings fantastically to get the best value from them instead of just trying to swarm with them like other foreign Zerg professionals.
Most Zergs A-move their lings but Stephano goes past the army and swings around even when under heavy fire in order to penetrate the other army really well.
that's one thing Warcraft 3 players have, very good Units sense and it just carries over in Stephanos case.
There is no bigger lie in this scene than the idea that Wc3 players have great micro.
Pretty much all the best micro players in the world are Korean and almost all of them (except Polt) were Brood War players.
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On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again.
When did Team Liquid turn into Arena Junkies?
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i wonder if stephano can play terran/protoss like how he plays zerg
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his protoss was pretty good, i remember seeing him play against idra PvZ and it took idra a long time to win that game
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On July 25 2012 05:45 dZn wrote:
Its a combination of great scouting, game sense, and best micro at the moment as mentioned above.
He does not lose one milli-second (pun intended) when he builds workers, cause he just hits 4 (all hatches) and q (larva and also build drone) – mostly grid layout. So by just putting q down he builds a drone as soon as any larva appears. In combination with his fast mechanics and his game sense he is able to get nearly the maximum units at any given time and makes them worth more with his micro. His easy macro style also frees up “memory” from the brain to focus more on micro. With easy macro style I mean that he doesn’t need to stretch his fingers far away, and always puts his eggs into his groups 1 and 2 while morphing. So he keeps himself always organized. he can be even greedier by doing this, because his defending units will participate in a fight as soon as they hatch.
One weakness is his injects. His Inject style is slow compared to other pro zergs. That might be why he is so great with roaches, cause it forgives “sloppy” injecting as long as he drones up perfectly. Even if he gets supply blocked several times it is easy for him to catch up because he will have enough larva to hit his timing against toss! The need for an earlier macro hatch when he plays muta ling could be delayed by organizing his injects in a way that he would only need 1 second for it before focussing on micro again. i think his method today is to hit 3 (all queens) then click on the minimap to go to one of his hatcheries, click minimap, hit x for inject, left click on the center of the main screen to inject hatch. (i think he does not minimap injecting, but navigation to hatches and click on the hatch). thats time inefficient, and pulls away focus.
He tabs a lot, so he sees when new larva spawned, and this is his reminder to inject again. one thing i would like to see more pros doing is to tab a single hatch from time to time, to see the progress of the larva timer. combined with faster injecting = gosu!!
As far as I know he doesn’t use camera hotkeys. He gets away with it because he clicks fast on the minimap. If he would spend the extra mile to improve on camera hotkeys it might make him even stronger.
Sometimes it seems that the only one that can defeat him is Stephano himself.
Just to add: He uses a French keyboard layout (stephano usa!!), so he actually hits 4aa to build a drone (AZERTY) (QSDFG) and q is his attack key, just like english keyboard grid with A for attack instead of T and Q for larva / drones.
At the moment he gets away with all this "imperfections", because his skills outweight them by far. He has his workarounds.
One thing that he gains (and i gain too is the awereness of map...some people used to say i was maphacker...) but the thing is that he takes longer to go a each hatchery so he can see what's going on in mini-map more time and more often, so he can react like a seconds faster...
The thing is that i can't do this at high speed but if i could....i'd have the "Stephano" map awereness !
=P
^^
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Nice piece of conversation. Tang should write books. I'd buy and read them as long as they come in the cheaper soft-cover versions.
edit: also, looks mighty like Tyler Durden in that video. Sexy.
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Stephano is a mechanical beast with Zerg, this is clearly shown by the timings he has made standard. With these mechanics I feel he has the apm and time to position his army better, micro and all sorts of neat stuff that make his army more cost efficient. The nature of zerg is in a simple case to put produce your opponent and when your being highly cost efficient the Zerg macro machine that is Stephano seems to have a horde at his command.
Also can anybody actually cheese this guy? Sometimes Stephano just knows whats coming to him and defends it. Its incredible.
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On July 26 2012 04:00 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 02:32 worldpeace30 wrote:
From the games I have seen of Stephano he knows how to micro his lings fantastically to get the best value from them instead of just trying to swarm with them like other foreign Zerg professionals.
Most Zergs A-move their lings but Stephano goes past the army and swings around even when under heavy fire in order to penetrate the other army really well.
that's one thing Warcraft 3 players have, very good Units sense and it just carries over in Stephanos case. There is no bigger lie in this scene than the idea that Wc3 players have great micro. Pretty much all the best micro players in the world are Korean and almost all of them (except Polt) were Brood War players.
It sounds like you're under the false impression that either Korean pros have 100% and Warcraft 3 pros had 0% micro or the other way around.
That's not a very good argument.
BroodWar professionals have phenomenal micro but so did Warcraft 3 professionals.
Warcraft 3 is 95% micro 5% macro where as Starcraft 2 is a lot less micro and a lot more macro. Broodwar required a lot of micro but we haven't seen the best BroodWar players transition to SC2 yet.
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On July 25 2012 21:53 Black[CAT] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 09:23 Infernal_dream wrote:
Overhyped as fuck. He'll fall off the radar like spanishiwa did and every other "good" zerg. SC2 is too much about build orders and not enough about skill. Hence why a person like stephano comes up with a build and is good for a few months then a patch comes out and they never win shit again. Come to think of it, where is Spanishiwa now and what was so special about him?
Still at college and streams most afternoons. He brought the 3 hatch no gas (ice fisher) build to the masses.
A great stream to watch and has a cool one note document that has very useful information he collected from watching pros play
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On July 26 2012 06:15 Dunmer wrote:
Also can anybody actually cheese this guy? Sometimes Stephano just knows whats coming to him and defends it. Its incredible.
I've noticed that too, seems to always know ahead of time somehow.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 26 2012 04:00 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 02:32 worldpeace30 wrote:
From the games I have seen of Stephano he knows how to micro his lings fantastically to get the best value from them instead of just trying to swarm with them like other foreign Zerg professionals.
Most Zergs A-move their lings but Stephano goes past the army and swings around even when under heavy fire in order to penetrate the other army really well.
that's one thing Warcraft 3 players have, very good Units sense and it just carries over in Stephanos case. There is no bigger lie in this scene than the idea that Wc3 players have great micro. Pretty much all the best micro players in the world are Korean and almost all of them (except Polt) were Brood War players.
The WC3 pros have great micro, even in SC2. The thing that separates the high-end Koreans like MC apart from players like Grubby or Stephano is that MC played BW and can generally macro better and faster, leaving more room for micro.
On July 26 2012 06:01 The_DarkAngelz wrote:
One thing that he gains (and i gain too is the awereness of map...some people used to say i was maphacker...) but the thing is that he takes longer to go a each hatchery so he can see what's going on in mini-map more time and more often, so he can react like a seconds faster...
The thing is that i can't do this at high speed but if i could....i'd have the "Stephano" map awereness !
=P
^^
This is actually probably Stepahano's main strength; he has INCREDIBLE map awareness. He never misses things like drops or probe movement on the minimap, and 99% of the time he reacts almost instantly with beautiful game sense and quick decision making. I honestly believe that no other pro can brag the map awareness that Stephano has.
His mechanics are sloppy from time to time, and his build times, although they are fairly standard, range 10-20 seconds earlier/later and sometimes he'll miss taking a geyser or two. He even says that he doesn't use the timer for his build, he just kind of feels out the build. His builds don't have the perfect, crisp timings of players like NesTea or IdrA, but the strategies he does allows for that breathing room.
On July 26 2012 21:35 SexElephant wrote:
Come to think of it, where is Spanishiwa now and what was so special about him?
Still at college and streams most afternoons. He brought the 3 hatch no gas (ice fisher) build to the masses.
A great stream to watch and has a cool one note document that has very useful information he collected from watching pros play[/QUOTE]
I believe Spanishiwa is dealing with college right now, so he's kind of busy. He's never been a top tier player, but I've been amazed at his progress, slowly getting better and better, using his now-not-unique style (lol) to keep opponent's thinking.
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On July 27 2012 02:32 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 06:15 Dunmer wrote:
Also can anybody actually cheese this guy? Sometimes Stephano just knows whats coming to him and defends it. Its incredible. I've noticed that too, seems to always know ahead of time somehow.
I actually remember Polt beating him with a Maurder/Hellion all in in the final game of the open bracket at MLG. I then remember at the very next tournament, I think Polt tried it again in game 2 maybe, Stephano shut it down so hard. He is an incredibly quick learner, I actually think the more he plays people the better will become. It happens alot with Stephano, thats why cheeses are so weak against him, if it works once it won't work again. Its why MC does well against him, his all-ins are kinda uniqe to MC style.
I think mentally he is hands down the strongest player out there. He does not seem to go on tilt and is very capable of moving on from a game and start anew. Also he has the rare quality that I really only associated with the likes of Polt/MKP/MVP/Nestea, where he is never beaten until WP/Gratz appears. He has turned some games where tons of other Zergs are "fuck it, bring on Game 2" around. Did anyone see game 1 on Antiga Shipyard against Oz. That push from OZ was coming to kill stephano, the whole point of that build was that stephano will only have an un maxed ling/roach/infestor army versus 8 sentries/blink stalkers and immortals, yet stephano with arguably worse upgrades and worse composition crushed that attack.
He also identifies where he is behind in a game where his advantage lies. In the game with MKP where he landed "dat fungal" and smashed that army, Stephano knew he was behind in economy/tech but he also knew with his maxed low tech army of roaches lings banelings and couple of infestors he had a mobilty that could take map control, what did he do with that advantage? He aggressively spread creep. He knew that MKP comp was powerful but slow, he knew MKP had to either come onto the creep to do damage or he could slow him down enough to tech to a better army/economy. These decisions are what make him different. If he sees that mutas will work, he will drop infestors in an instant *Game 3 of Stephano vs Ryung.
His skills with his micro is fantastic, what happens every other zerg with roach ling? FF and immortals GG. With stephano he always trades well. His macro is sufficient, he does miss injects but his fast tech heavy ups style means that larva is not as important as it is to a macro based player like Idra/Ret (Idra especially likes a moving infestors and ret will try to overrun you).
Game 3 with Ryung is another example of Stephano's skill. I honestly think no other zerg in the world comes back against Ryung in that position, Ryung is a near perfect Terran, he does not make that many mistakes.
I don't think Stephano will ever adopt the Korean training style, but I do think the more exposure he has with Korean opposition, the better he will become.
Also his understanding of the game in ZvP and ZvT is really high. Infestor Ling is stephano's build, using Ultra's against Terran was stephano again. Roach/Ling against P was Stephano's idea, and if you pay attention he is already transitioning out of it, while everyone else is starting to use it. He no longer gets the +1 missile attack, he no puts mild pressure on and uses ling infestor with melee upgrades.
I think Stephano has the potential to become the best player in the world but it all depends on his ability to apply himself. There are some subtle changes in his play to suggest his aiming to be more competitive, like always getting an early gase, sometimes for speed only some times for an all in! Why does he do this, he does it because if he didn't players like MVP could exploit him (like say Naniwa who always opens with Nexus first).
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Why is this thread in the Strategy section of the forum? It's basically a fan club thread. I'm finding almost nothing of strategic content here, and it keeps getting bumped over more relevant topics.
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On July 26 2012 10:06 worldpeace30 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 04:00 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On July 26 2012 02:32 worldpeace30 wrote:
From the games I have seen of Stephano he knows how to micro his lings fantastically to get the best value from them instead of just trying to swarm with them like other foreign Zerg professionals.
Most Zergs A-move their lings but Stephano goes past the army and swings around even when under heavy fire in order to penetrate the other army really well.
that's one thing Warcraft 3 players have, very good Units sense and it just carries over in Stephanos case. There is no bigger lie in this scene than the idea that Wc3 players have great micro. Pretty much all the best micro players in the world are Korean and almost all of them (except Polt) were Brood War players. It sounds like you're under the false impression that either Korean pros have 100% and Warcraft 3 pros had 0% micro or the other way around. That's not a very good argument. BroodWar professionals have phenomenal micro but so did Warcraft 3 professionals. Warcraft 3 is 95% micro 5% macro where as Starcraft 2 is a lot less micro and a lot more macro. Broodwar required a lot of micro but we haven't seen the best BroodWar players transition to SC2 yet.
There is zero correlation between having great micro and playing Wc3 or BW.
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On July 27 2012 06:35 ineversmile wrote:
Why is this thread in the Strategy section of the forum? It's basically a fan club thread. I'm finding almost nothing of strategic content here, and it keeps getting bumped over more relevant topics.
Sorry you feel that way, I will keep creating more specific content relating to Stephano's style of Zerg. Here's a link to a lesson on the Stephano-style ZvP, holding the 4gate, and also a few late-game considerations:
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/326318271
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Watching Stephano's stream, I've actually seen him do a huge variety of builds, particularly on certain maps like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau where he'll do particularly wacky builds. It seems to me that even though some builds are not that good in the long run, doing them exposes him to different scenarios where he can hone his decision making and micro. Some of the builds I've seen:
ZvP
Roach ling into infestor ling into broodlord (standard)
Roach drop in main with burrow move to natural
Mass ling/bane drops into turtling with infestors/spines for the counterattack
Double spire muta into base trade
Muta into infestor/broodlord
2 base infestor ling
Infestor spine wall into brood lord rush
Roach queen timing attack
Mass hydra only (this was really terrible though tbh)
3 Base hydra/roach timing attack
10 pool
ZvT
Speedling only with drops
Roach ling pressure into expand (or allin)
Roach ling bane pressure into expand (or allin)
Ling infestor into brood lords
Ling infestor into ultras
2/2 Ling infestor baneling bust
Muta/ling/bane
Double spire muta into base trade
ZvZ
13 pool baneling allin
8 speedling expand into 3 spines
speedling expand into banelings
hatch first into speedling (standard)
2 base muta ling
2 base infestor ling
+1 roach ling timing attacks
roach ling bane timing attacks
2/2 mass roach multipronged attacks
roach/hydra/infestor
speedling only (this was amusing to watch)
proxy hatch in the middle of the map
The point is, even when Stephano is thrown off his game he is very adaptable and has a lot of builds he can go to. Also, since some of these non-standard builds have their weaknesses he gets to play from behind much more often than if he simply tried to play his most efficient build all the time.
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On July 27 2012 07:20 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 06:35 ineversmile wrote:
Why is this thread in the Strategy section of the forum? It's basically a fan club thread. I'm finding almost nothing of strategic content here, and it keeps getting bumped over more relevant topics. Sorry you feel that way, I will keep creating more specific content relating to Stephano's style of Zerg. Here's a link to a lesson on the Stephano-style ZvP, holding the 4gate, and also a few late-game considerations: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/326318271
Nevering missing a chance for dat stream promo
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I've updated the OP with the first of many Polls: what's the most important aspect of Stephano's play. Once we decide, we can place more specific attention on how we can improve this specific area of our play.
Poll: Poll #1: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play?Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key (94) 66% Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead! (19) 13% Be confident, relaxed, focused. SC2 is as much psychological as it is mechanical. (12) 8% Know your opponents' timings. Planning your responses ahead saves time spent thinking. (7) 5% Be consistent. If you use the same build/style each game, decision-making is that much easier. (5) 4% Other (I will post a comment explaining) (3) 2% Know the many mechanics that save you time. Time is the most important resource in SC2. (2) 1% 142 total votes Your vote: Poll #1: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play? (Vote): Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key
(Vote): Be confident, relaxed, focused. SC2 is as much psychological as it is mechanical.
(Vote): Know your opponents' timings. Planning your responses ahead saves time spent thinking.
(Vote): Be consistent. If you use the same build/style each game, decision-making is that much easier.
(Vote): Know the many mechanics that save you time. Time is the most important resource in SC2.
(Vote): Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead!
(Vote): Other (I will post a comment explaining)
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I think the most-overlooked key to Stephano's skill is his engagements. People often focus on his timings, builds or scouting but his engagements are among the best I see of any zergs.
However I think the poll is missing an option for sheer quality of macro in all situations. Perhaps that's too generic and not useful to anyone wanting to emulate him though.
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-Every aspect of his game is really good ( macro,micro,map awareness, game sense,engagements, etc)
-Plays safe style = makes enough units at all stages to be safe if doesn't know what opponent isn't doing, doesn't skip that much corners.
-No flashy gimmicky play
-Hardly ever makes big blunders at any stage of the game when sober
-Good late game
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Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead!
naniwa is the only god foreigner, if next season stephano performs well in gsl I will shut up but now, it's not enough for me
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On July 28 2012 05:19 Kasu wrote:
I think the most-overlooked key to Stephano's skill is his engagements. People often focus on his timings, builds or scouting but his engagements are among the best I see of any zergs.
However I think the poll is missing an option for sheer quality of macro in all situations. Perhaps that's too generic and not useful to anyone wanting to emulate him though.
Yeah you're right I could have included a macro option.
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Had to laugh at "best foreign Zerg player in the world"
Besides that: I am not sure why you want to break Stephano's play down. First of all it would only really help the best of best players, because a lot of it is standard stuff. He hits timings, has incredible minimap awareness, engages brilliantly, etc.
All the small details that make his play his own are mostly interesting for pros (not to say other players cant learn from him)
Want to become good? Play perfect. So you are basically asking "what's the best way of playing zerg" and take stephano as an example. That brings me to my second point: Why Stephano? There are tons of zerg to learn from. Taking one particular maybe easier to start from, but in the end you want to take a look at all worldclass zergs to answer that question.
Don't let these word discourage you in your endeavor, I appreciate it, as we can all learn from it. It only feels a bit random.
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On July 28 2012 05:52 Split. wrote:
Had to laugh at "best foreign Zerg player in the world"
Besides that: I am not sure why you want to break Stephano's play down. First of all it would only really help the best of best players, because a lot of it is standard stuff. He hits timings, has incredible minimap awareness, engages brilliantly, etc.
All the small details that make his play his own are mostly interesting for pros (not to say other players cant learn from him)
Want to become good? Play perfect. So you are basically asking "what's the best way of playing zerg" and take stephano as an example. That brings me to my second point: Why Stephano? There are tons of zerg to learn from. Taking one particular maybe easier to start from, but in the end you want to take a look at all worldclass zergs to answer that question.
Don't let these word discourage you in your endeavor, I appreciate it, as we can all learn from it. It only feels a bit random.
Well actually I just randomly decided to download Stephano's most recent replay pack and analyse it for myself. I started watching one of the games and already learned quite a bit, so I thought I may as well stream what I'm learning because there might be others who benefit from it. I'm a high master Zerg player but my analysis of Stephano isn't perfect, and there are certainly very important things that I overlook. I thought it'd be fun to open up a discussion to get others' insight on what we can learn from him, so that I can take a closer look at these things when I analyse future pro games.
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It's just good game sense and understanding of the game, he knows the composition he needs when he needs it and executes well.
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On July 28 2012 05:31 Berceno wrote:
Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead!
naniwa is the only god foreigner, if next season stephano performs well in gsl I will shut up but now, it's not enough for me
Being a GSL pro is a huge thing but it is not for every player, Stephano say's he rarely plays which in GSL format could cost him games. Take MVP for example, the man owns GSL but sucks at foreign events because hes not very good at the format. Stephano could be the opposite!
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The three C's are the most important aspect to success in any field.
Cool
Calm
Collected.
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Stephano has barely practiced for a month now and yet he has at present the best zvp in the world and is I'd say top 3 in tvz, along with Symbol and DRG, at the moment. His zvz is only top 10 but it's clearly his least practiced (as in never outside the ladder) and most consistent matchup. My best guess as to what makes him so good:
1. Map awareness: Almost everyone has said this and they're right. Map awareness allows you to prepare for your opponent's army, defend early cheese attempts, engage your opponent's army better, lose fewer drones to harassment etc. Map awareness is a function of how often you look at the minimap and also your ability to keep focused and multitask since if you have trouble defending drops, taking expansions, spreading creep, all at more or less the same time you can't also pay attention to the minimap, but Stephano can because he also has the best multitasking of any zerg (see next item).
2. Multitasking: This is of course extremely difficult to measure but a reasonable proxy for multitasking is how often you see a player "fall apart" when the pressure is on; how often you see them lose stray units; how often you see them run their zerglings into an opponent's army; etc. With Stephano it always seems like he's able to deal with whatever you throw at him at however many locations you throw at him, and if he can't it's usually because something else that happened put him too far behind (like going for roach base all in and failing to do much damage). Also he has without question the best late game control and late game of any zerg; this is in part a testament to Stephano's micro but it's also a testament to his ability to do a bunch of things really well at once. Even DRG can look mortal in late games now and again; Stephano is simply terrifying.
3. Micro: One of the more impressive moments from the recent MLG IMO was when Stephano was about to lose to Oz on Daybreak. Oz had 4 Colossi and a bunch of stalkers and was approaching Stephano's third. Stephano's roach ling army was probably smaller than Oz's; nevertheless Stephano weaved his forces through Oz's army and sniped all four of Oz's Colossi and made out with a few units, to top it off. He lost the game, but all things considered, that had to have been one of the most cost efficent engagements of all time.
Also I definitely think it helps that he binds his eggs to hot keys; if you do this, you are much less likely to have bad rallies and much more likely to have all of your units engaging when you need them to.
4. Macro:Stephano's macro has slipped just a bit because he literally is not practicing at all. But it's not as bad as some people think it is and often his supply blocks, especially against P, are more or less part of the build. He's probably only top 5 in tvp and pvz. Stephano is the guy who maxed out at something like 10'50" in a zvp. You cannot do that with his gas timings unless you do every single thing not well, but perfectly. He also maxed out at 12'00 in a game where he lost his hatch and built 8 early lings (and was harassing the P while doing so with his lings). These were ladder games if you're wondering.
5. Mechanics: These have slipped a bit - perhaps, but his ability to inject is still very good, and is probably better than every one else, save for DRG perhaps, when it comes to doing so under pressure. Whether his mechanics are slipping is something that needs to be determined by looking at 100 recent games and comparing it to 100 of his earlier games and then comparing those games to Symbol's etc.- you actually have to do some sort of data analysis; noting that one of his queens looked like it had high energy at the 15 minutes mark in a game versus so and so is only anecdotal evidence. Ipp from RageQuit looked at Stephano's inject in a tvz game at the 10 minute mark and his average gap was sub 5 seconds (which is essentially perfect). I generally think claims about Stephano's mechanics not being that good are generally a product of Artosis saying something to that effect at one point in a game against Polt.
6. Genius Factor: This guy is clearly a genius -- he works less and accomplishes more at this point other than an exceptionally small number of players and he's done this without a coach, without living in a team house (for any extended duration), without exceptional practice partners, etc. At one point he basically had "solved" zvp and he's responsible for convincing Koreans that ling-infestor > muta-ling-bling in zvt, as a general matter at least. He's shown an innate ability for figuring things out more readily than just about everyone else. Just when you think he's falling behind, he comes through and stomps a bunch of players you thought he was going to lose to (hero and mc come to mind). He is IMO the most talented player in SC2. If he had the BW work ethic, he would be far and away the best player in the world; as it stands, given the relative strength of Zerg nowadays, he's probably not too far away from being the best player in the world.
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Stephano is really consistent and he does a lot of small things right, he also has amazing decision making ingame. He plays very relaxed so he does a lot of thinking ingame rather than before the game through hours of practice.
Watched all the replay analysis and loved it, ty
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Best player in the world imo. Only thing left is to win code s.
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On July 28 2012 17:41 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Stephano is really consistent and he does a lot of small things right, he also has amazing decision making ingame. He plays very relaxed so he does a lot of thinking ingame rather than before the game through hours of practice.
But he doesn't 11-hatch! lol
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Note: I like stephano and think its amazing that he is a foreighner who does well vs koreans (most of the time). I just have a strong dislike for his fans.
This thread is going nowhere really. Other than tangs original post, (which did have at least some good information in the analysis, although I have no idea why you did all video and didn't write up a build order guide or something like that). Its just a big circle jerk on how good stephano is. All I have to say to that is he is good, but he is overhyped. FOr the best foreigner (or best player as some claim) he doesn't have that great of tournament results (im talking major ones, like MLG championships and IPL's, not showmatchs or france only tournies). His first at NASL was good, but other than that, and IPL 3, he has failed to grab a significant championship (and failed to qualify for things like TSL 4 etc, which he should be able to do as the "best" foreigner). Other than one of the spring arena's, he has also failed to do well in most of the MLGs (by his hype standard anyways). Trying to compare him as the best at zvp or whatever you want doesn't stand up to his results (just my opinion) for how much hype he gets. (a side note on those who mention he is "perfect" at engaements or whatever, you are wrong. If he was perfect, he'd be taking first places all the time. Extremely good is a better adjective). And hes been gutted before in a match vs someone who prepares well (MVP vs Stephano in the blizzard cup for example). This is why the true test will be for him to do well in the GSL, where the top players are. If he can do well there, he will have lived up to the hype. (and i hope he does)
On topic: I would suggest to actually make this thread more useful than a stream plug and a fan praise, now that you have established what it is that makes stephano so good, is to explain how you do that. For example, his tactics have been mentioned. Well post a guide on how to practice that, or how to improve your map awareness. Not just "OMG his map awareness is so good!"
Eg. TO improve map awareness, once your macro cycle has been completer (injects, tumours, upgrades etc) always be scanning the map, even the fog. It gets you practiced in being able to macro fast and then be scanning the map for blips like a drop.
Just my 2 cents.
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I think the fact is, Niteblade, that Stephano is just always on the top of the scene, and that's why lots of people think he's the best foreigner.
He's the 7th player in term of money made by starcraft 2, and has more than twice the amount of the second foreigner (according to SC2earning he had 161k $ and the second foreigner, huk, "only" 71k) and in 2012 he is the 3rd, just behind MC & DRG.
He won a NASL, an ESWC & an IPL.
I don't think he's overhyped. Not 'cause I'm french, just 'cause he's the only player Korean seems really fear.
The fact is, all the time Stephano's doing a tournament, he's doing it well. According to liquipedia, he's always at least on semi-finals, and that's pretty impressive. Yes, we can say he's not in the TSL4, and he failed the ironsquid, but is there any other foreigner who seems to be that strong ? i don't see anyone.
I don't think he's going to the GSL, last time I heard of it, he was saying that it's too less money for the time spend to play, has he changed his mind ?
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Well everyone the results are in to the first Poll question: What is the most important aspect of Stephano's play?
Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key
So, I'd like to move the discussion towards how players can improve their engagements. If anyone could provide insight into what makes Stephano's engagements so good (especially with replay examples that I can stream some analysis of), it would be very helpful <3
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On July 28 2012 05:31 Berceno wrote:
Stephano is over-hyped, nothing special about him. Let's talk about a real GSL pro instead!
naniwa is the only god foreigner, if next season stephano performs well in gsl I will shut up but now, it's not enough for me
d.JonnyREcco says hi. Your hero has fallen to a newcomer.
Keep your fanboyism and ridiculous claims to yourself. How can a player be over-hyped who has WON MULTIPLE TITLES? Jesus Christ.
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Stephano is very talented, and very smart, he plans on going to med school.
He's just more talented at this sort of things, nothing else.
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On July 29 2012 10:13 Asarha wrote:
I think the fact is, Niteblade, that Stephano is just always on the top of the scene, and that's why lots of people think he's the best foreigner.
He's the 7th player in term of money made by starcraft 2, and has more than twice the amount of the second foreigner (according to SC2earning he had 161k $ and the second foreigner, huk, "only" 71k) and in 2012 he is the 3rd, just behind MC & DRG.
He won a NASL, an ESWC & an IPL.
I don't think he's overhyped. Not 'cause I'm french, just 'cause he's the only player Korean seems really fear.
The fact is, all the time Stephano's doing a tournament, he's doing it well. According to liquipedia, he's always at least on semi-finals, and that's pretty impressive. Yes, we can say he's not in the TSL4, and he failed the ironsquid, but is there any other foreigner who seems to be that strong ? i don't see anyone.
I don't think he's going to the GSL, last time I heard of it, he was saying that it's too less money for the time spend to play, has he changed his mind ?
I'm not denying him being the best foreigner (at least ahead of most, but there are some that are very close in contention), all i'm saying that for having that title and being talked about by all his fans as this "god" or having perfect play, his results don't match that. I agree he is always at least near the top 10 in tournaments (for the most part anyways). Going by earnings is a horrible way to judge how good a player is (would put lucifron over alot of top koreans, and foreigners which is obviously false. Although i will agree that stephano is much higher than him as a relative number)
Im not argueing about stephano being good, just that he is overhyped as his fans get annoying..... look at this thread for example. It has no relevant content....
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On July 31 2012 07:43 Niteblade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 10:13 Asarha wrote:
I think the fact is, Niteblade, that Stephano is just always on the top of the scene, and that's why lots of people think he's the best foreigner.
He's the 7th player in term of money made by starcraft 2, and has more than twice the amount of the second foreigner (according to SC2earning he had 161k $ and the second foreigner, huk, "only" 71k) and in 2012 he is the 3rd, just behind MC & DRG.
He won a NASL, an ESWC & an IPL.
I don't think he's overhyped. Not 'cause I'm french, just 'cause he's the only player Korean seems really fear.
The fact is, all the time Stephano's doing a tournament, he's doing it well. According to liquipedia, he's always at least on semi-finals, and that's pretty impressive. Yes, we can say he's not in the TSL4, and he failed the ironsquid, but is there any other foreigner who seems to be that strong ? i don't see anyone.
I don't think he's going to the GSL, last time I heard of it, he was saying that it's too less money for the time spend to play, has he changed his mind ? Im not argueing about stephano being good, just that he is overhyped as his fans get annoying..... look at this thread for example. It has no relevant content....
There is relevant content in this thread, and I would prefer to move the discussion towards more strategy/mechanics than general discussion about Stephano's skill level.
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WOW Tang! I found this very helpful! <33
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On August 01 2012 10:44 NOOBALOPSE wrote:
WOW Tang! I found this very helpful! <33
Glad you found it helpful, if there's anything specific that I should keep doing (or even a few things I can improve on) let me know.
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This analysis is really good and there is indeed something about Stephano that he does so well that he pulls off a win even in the most dire of situations.
@TangSC I would like to see more in-depth comparison between Stephano and other pro-zergs, preferably something with the same map, doing and vs the same builds. Even if the other zerg wins as well, we can see how he prioritizes his actions and how these decisions affect the game he's playing. How decisive are the victories and what is needed to win these games.
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thanks for this Tang :D its kinda motivating
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Well, this is something I have been thinking since the MLG KeSPA invitational.
When you watch the greatest players play from their first person view, you watch what and how they do it.
The best are fast, amazing, sharp players who do everything just right. They push the whole APM train of action with strength from their hips and shoulders, and they push on it hard. The amount of effort it takes to play this game is incredible and palpable when you watch the efforts of players like IM_Mvp or DRG or NesTea or Naniwa. And they are well practiced, and as good as it is humanly possible to get at it.
But among all these hard workers there are three (3) people I believe are different. They slip through all the smash and grab and fury of 300 actions per minute with an almost insufferably light touch. They not only get everything done, but they do it with a palpable ease. Every mouse click, every control group switch, every box and every order.. is perfect. They never go back to correct, they never re-queve or cancel anything. They simply.. float through the motion of playing the game perfectly. As if the whole ordeal was a small borish task of I'll just, then, and, now, and, yeah, there.
I picture DRG, a muscular enormous body builder tied to a train and pulling on it, making it move, sweating, cursing and grunting, but making it move. Then I picture each of them.. small skinny nerdy figures picking the train off the tracks and tossing it forwards soaring through the air, as if it weighed nothing at all.
The world that they live in has no friction or mass. Their play is a pure stream of bliss.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Apologies for the fanboyism lol.
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I'm not an expert at saying what Stephano is good at, except that is engagement are always well done. I think this thread can learn from one of the Featured Post on Teamliquid : "God of the Battlefield: part 1"
A lecture of this thread can give some idea on the strategic element of the engagement.
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Zerg is a good race at the moment. Im not really talking about balance, it seems like blizzard has put them in a position where they can do really well/have potential to do really well. As for stephano he just knows his opponents he has the timings in his head he knows how to respond and has great micro/macro.
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On August 02 2012 21:31 DoDonPachi wrote:I'm not an expert at saying what Stephano is good at, except that is engagement are always well done. I think this thread can learn from one of the Featured Post on Teamliquid : "God of the Battlefield: part 1"A lecture of this thread can give some idea on the strategic element of the engagement.
Actually yeah that thread is really well done, I don't think I have enough resources to make a thread like it yet.
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Can somebody explain why Stephano seems to always have a habbit to supply block himself on purpose at 44 supply in ZvT and ZvP and then build 2 overlords instead?
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This is like asking how was Jaedong so good at BW back in the day.
It's because they not only play the game... they UNDERSTAND the game.
Still.. any thead with Stephano's name is win in my books
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I think a lot of it has to do with gaming habits (not necessarily a bad thing) he developed when he started in the WC3 days. He knows how to practice and knows how to keep himself cool. If you notice, Stephano hardly tilts, or at least a noticeable level. He's always smiling after losses and never ragequits game. That in itself is a huge advantage over other players who may take in the game differently (for example, IdrA, who is a very emotional player). Like you said, Tang, this game is just as psychological than it is strategical and I think that's one quality that sets him apart from a lot of players.
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I don´t know how accurate this is, but I was told Stephano actually builds more units against enemy timings.
As in, if a Protoss does an early poke against another zerg player, the zerg would build enough units to somehow survive. That is the mindset of many zergs. Stephano would build units with the goal of destroying the enemy army instead.
While against regular zergs you can poke against macro heavy play with little or no risk to your units, you cannot do that against Stephano because he will make you pay for trying that.
In short Stephano overdefends against early cute attacks that are thought to be risk free.
Didn´t watch him as much myself, but that´s what I´ve been told and it holds up so far.
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i voted: Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key.
hes getting the best of every situations, yesterday vs HerO he got a couple roaches forcefield'd, but he still managed to snipe like 5 high energies sentries.
the way he surrounds the opponent is also beastly.
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i also voted: Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key.
When i saw Stephano vs Strelok in Stim to the Win i decided to use more control groups for army than just 2.^^
I often see Stephano behind in early game, but then he engages so cost efficiency that his opponents are behind.
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I would love to see one of these episodes solely on unit positioning in engagements. I think it's something that is referenced a lot, but there don't seem to be any really good resources devoted solely to it (unless there are, in which case I'd love a link).
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Yeah,out of all his skill sets, his army engagements stand out the most, and then probably mini map awareness (seriously, he never misses anything!), or general game sense of what his opponent is doing without scouting for it. But yeah, I've seen many ZvP games where he is able to micro pre-hive armies against 170 supply colossus sentry balls and manage to survive or even win. I recall one particular game on Antiga, and I think it was vs Alicia, and he makes these impossible situations look easy @_@/
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I think the biggest edge he has over other Zergs is that he has ridiculous good game sense. He truly understands the game and doesn't just follow memorizing of build orders I think. Hell, he even redefined two match-ups himself because he really understands what he can get away with and what units to build against what the opponent has.
If it was simple timings or something like flanking, then everybody would be able to do. In my opinion, he just plays smarter than others most of the time.
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On September 13 2012 02:11 TwilightRain wrote:
Can somebody explain why Stephano seems to always have a habbit to supply block himself on purpose at 44 supply in ZvT and ZvP and then build 2 overlords instead?
Don't quote me on this, but I think it's because that is his gas/tech timing so he can spend all his money on tech rather than drones.
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On September 13 2012 13:33 foutre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:11 TwilightRain wrote:
Can somebody explain why Stephano seems to always have a habbit to supply block himself on purpose at 44 supply in ZvT and ZvP and then build 2 overlords instead?
Don't quote me on this, but I think it's because that is his gas/tech timing so he can spend all his money on tech rather than drones.
This,
At that time period Stephano usually either techs up or preparing a large round of units. Basically meaning that he does not need the free supply, because he is either teching or is going to wait until a production structure is done.
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On September 13 2012 02:11 TwilightRain wrote:
Can somebody explain why Stephano seems to always have a habbit to supply block himself on purpose at 44 supply in ZvT and ZvP and then build 2 overlords instead?
I do this too, it has to do with inject timings. When your first round of double-injects finish, using all the larva puts you right up to 44 supply THEN you build the overlords, and while you're waiting for supply you can go gas-gas-queen (or gas-gas-2drones) to keep your minerals low. It feels strange but when optimizing builds, sometimes it's actually correct to drone right up to supply block then build an overlord (but don't get in the habit of doing this all the time unless you're 100% confident in the logic behind it).
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I voted; Pay more attention to how units engage (Flanks, angles, concaves, surrounds). Cost efficiency is key.
Imo, Stephano's engagements is part of why lower level players have a hard time of understanding and copying his style.
I believe his near-perfect engagements is part of the reason his playstyles/builds work as they do. For example;
As we all know, Stephano rarely deviates from his ZvP build. If I tried to teach a friend of mine this style, sure, he could probably get the 3 hatches down, 2 gas @ around 6 minutes, 7 min warren + evo etc.
Then comes the scouting. I think Stephano scouts considerably less than others. But I'd still tell my friend he should scout (obviously). Say my friend scouts a 2 base colossus. What does he do? He freaks out, and tries to respond "correctly"(unit counter wise), by building a spire, sacrifice roaches for infestors, mass spines, outright spam even more roach/ling or something. That, or he'll probably get roasted by the toss army. Remember, I'm talking about a low level player who probably isn't comfortable handling Colossi with roach/ling. He will delay his infestors and upgrades, army etc. This doesn't work very well. He tries to neglect adapting to the build (as this is what Stephano does a lot of times), and dies due to a poor engage. (I do not seem to have very high thoughts about this friend.)
Stephano, on the other hand, knows the game a lot better. If he notices something like 2base Colossus, he'll often use this to his advantage. He doesn't have to engage the toss prematurely, but the toss has to exploit his timing, since he's on 2 base etc. So, Stephano will set up a perfect flank, engage at the right moment, and defeat the toss army with his standard composition. I believe "simple" things like these make Stephano's play hard to understand when you're an inexperienced player, when all you look for is build orders, and possibly reactions to what the player in question scouts.
I'm not implying that Stephano doesn't react to stuff, he mostly just doesn't overreact, and tries to stick with his initial decision for as long as it's the best option. His decision making is something I've often been amazed by; I don't know how many games I've watched when the casters have said things like "This isn't gonna work for Stephano". Yet it does, and he proceeds to win the game. Even so, he does not seem to be afraid of experimenting, and when I've watched his stream I constantly see him do new builds.
He also seems to be so focused and emotionally detached when he plays. This is, in my opinion, his other key strength to success. Just watch WCS, he won that without having slept, without his proper gear etc...
tl;dr I think Stephano's confidence as a player, gamesense and perfect engagements gives him the ability to use what he feels he is the best with, without having to change his gameplan and ending up in an uncomfortable situation. He keeps the initiative and stomps everyone. He's a very active player, does not overcommit to being reactionary, and controls the game to victory.
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Map and minimap awareness.
It enables a perfect defense of harassments and perfect battles setups.
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On September 22 2012 01:19 JyB wrote:
Map and minimap awareness.
It enables a perfect defense of harassments and perfect battles setups.
I think this is something I may have overlooked, and definitely contributes to setting up the best possible engagements.
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hard to get technical about why one person is better at metagaming than another. it's intelligence, knowledge, philosophy of war, etc. very complex and fun topic.
i'm sure looking at analysis of the top poker pros could be helpful in working this out, as there are similarities in the metagames.
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I think he must know his build inside out. In a game of incomplete information he analyses and distinguishes information much better than any body else in the foreign scene. I'd say better than any non-Kespa player infact, he just plays less.
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thank you for this thread tangsc. im gonna have to watch it and study ^^
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On September 23 2012 01:53 dreamseller wrote:
hard to get technical about why one person is better at metagaming than another. it's intelligence, knowledge, philosophy of war, etc. very complex and fun topic.
i'm sure looking at analysis of the top poker pros could be helpful in working this out, as there are similarities in the metagames.
Haha I've considered making SC2/Poker analogies (after-all, all-ins are good in both games!)
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EPT
