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Here's a new game that happened, I just added this.
http://drop.sc/227010
Okay, so this game just happened.
ZvT, Shakuras, Mid-masters.
Terran goes mech, I identify it, he actually opens some sort of 1 base all-innish gas first play and I came out way ahead when identified it but even with a huge economic lead it doesn't really matter.
I notice he goes air, so I think that he may not have many siege tanks so I can capitalize on it with a roach attack. It didn't really work out too well, and I tried to go ultra/np and that didn't really work well either, but cut his army a bit.
So eventually he puts PF's all over the middle of the map, he actually does this quite early.
So noticing he has a lot of tanks, and PFs, I think ultras are not the way to go, and instead that I should go BL/Infestor of some sort, and race upgrades. Double evo, double spire, I had 3/3/3/3 pretty early on.
But it doesn't matter. Terran deathball > Zerg deathball.
He has a TON of tanks, so I can't use infestors to get close at all, and I can't get my broodlord/corruptor in at all because he has a TON of vikings/ravens, and the raven count starts to get high real quickly.
Don't know what to do against this sort of play... I don't even think roach aggression works well anymore either. I used to do that, just roach max while getting infestor tech, but now I see that as all-innish, and it won't work if Terran is actually trying to do a mass siege tank/thor 3 base attack (which roach/infestor does okay against, but then why make roaches at all and just go rush broodlords in that case...).
Unlike the last game, mass IT spam doesn't work well because he has a shitload of tanks and PFs. And unlike the last game, ultras don't work well because, well, he has a shitload of PFs and tanks.
I just end up dying to his deathball. In that first rep, Ultra may have worked because he had so much air, but in this game I didn't think ultras would work with is PFs and high siege tank count.
I'm starting to run into this a lot on ladder ;/
So I just played a game vs Terran. He went reactor hellion, I don't know why, but I just had a huge economic lead from the whole game. Basically I lost to mass raven made off only 4 base, against a Terran I constantly checked to make sure he was being honest and safe, and he was so there wasn't any point some sort of "Just go fucking kill him" move would have worked (please don't tell me that if you dont at least watch the replay...)
I see him going mech, so I identify I have 2 choices here: Mass roach to kill him, or rush broodlords. I usually mass roach if I see Terran being greedy, like starting raven/banshees on just 3 base, not making tanks, but with an overseer I see he's got a healthy amount of tanks, so roaches won't be a good idea, especially on Cloud Kingdom. So I pretty much completely skip roaches and go straight into Hive, and start expanding all over his side of the map because I know sometimes going against mech gets like that.
He takes a fourth pretty quickly, and with going Broodlords I know I can't really stop that (yet). I expand all over the map, and extractor trick out a pure broodlord/corruptor/infestor army of like 220 supply.
I start to wear him down at his fourth, but he is starting a raven fleet so I have to be cautious. Thinking that he won't really get anywhere if I confine him on 4 base, I expand every base on the map, get 3/3 AND 3/3 with double spire.
Well it doesn't really work out, and his pure Thor/Viking/Raven army just owns me. I thought it wouldn't be that bad if I'm actually mining out the geysers to his bases, but it doesn't really matter, because apparently he has no problem affording this all on 4 bases.
Trying to FG his ravens over and over doesn't really work because I take too much damage from his thors with similar range. I thought maybe I could perfectly micro and just clip him with the edges of the FG, but that's terribly energy inefficient and I just can't really get enough going, and I don't think it's a good idea to mass infestors because he's got a lot of mech units still.
Despite mining out the gas on every base on the map except his 4, I'm gas starved, I have trouble getting the army I need while having the drones I need (at one point I have too few drones, so I had to remake up to 80 again).
Nothing really works, and I just GG out because there's just no hope and I have no money. He has no money either, but there's nothing to really beat his money composition. I didn't think it'd be this bad with him only on 4 bases, but it was.
http://drop.sc/220805
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There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth.
You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information
User was warned for this post
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Neural parasite would work a lot better than trying to fungal ravens, in that composition NP'ing a raven or two that has enough energy for HSM will do a lot of damage, similarly if it is a 200/200 deathball then NP'ing a thor that does splash damage to air would be a pain for him to deal with, even if it only gets off 1-2 volleys per NP, the units will die fast if he is staying clumped up at all.
Using that composition, if he's trying to use the thors to shield ravens from your infestors you can NP the thors, if he's using the ravens to engage and thin the army before thors come in... you can NP the ravens. PDD/HSM are both very powerful tools against his own army.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: you had two very good opportunities to use mass neural parasite. The first was when you first engaged with the broodlords and he started pushing up the ramp with a few thors / tanks, the second was when you made a huge infested terran line to engage his army and he only had thor/raven at the time. Once he had battlecruisers added into the mix with vikings raven and thor, it is a very hard composition to beat.
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You played against late game terran mech.
Things that you should have done in that game:
Either attack as soon as broodlords were ready (you could have got them 2 mins earlier but instead you made a second wave or corruptors)
Max roach and attack everywhere you can (ling muta style)
Don't clump your broods against thor raven, so much splash!
Get neural earlier
More upgrades, he was 3-3 ground and air
For next time:
Try nydus play and deny bases, you did well with all the expanding but he got to do what he wanted
Also might want to throw ultras in there, bonus to armour 
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I feel like the reason you lost is because you went for the army that his army countered. You stayed on brood/Infestor all game and refused to tech switch. He had loads of vikings and an Ultra/Infestor switch could have really done some damage. More importantly, you didn't abuse his immobility at all. You just kept attacking in to his army and planetaries at the fourth. Instead, a few maxed roach drops or muta attacks in the main to eliminate his production and his other bases could have been really good. Either of those two strategies could have beaten him. The problem was going brood infestor against a unit composition designed to defeat it and just attacking repeatedly in to him making inefficient trades.
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On July 13 2012 03:35 RevBubba wrote:
I am at work so I haven't had time to watch the replay, but neural parasite would work a lot better than trying to fungal ravens, in that composition NP'ing a raven or two that has enough energy for HSM will do a lot of damage, similarly if it is a 200/200 deathball then NP'ing a thor that does splash damage to air would be a pain for him to deal with, even if it only gets off 1-2 volleys per NP, the units will die fast if he is staying clumped up at all.
Using that composition, if he's trying to use the thors to shield ravens from your infestors you can NP the thors, if he's using the ravens to engage and thin the army before thors come in... you can NP the ravens. PDD/HSM are both very powerful tools against his own army. I will add to this post once i watch the replay...
Too many ravens to effectivly NP, and i'd say that it was the ravens protecting the thors after watching the replay.
It was basically 200/200 mech into sky terran at 3-3 ups vs infestor broodlord with no support.
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Try neuraling some of his thors and make them target the vikings. The thor splash damage on top of the fungal is really efficient. Also if he doesnt have any tanks or helions try throwing down some infested terrans
User was warned for this post
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infested terrans, man.
later on you started trying to drown him in infested terrans, but you needed to do that on the first big battle when you still had 16 broodlords.
Normally when I do this kind of thing I have about 10 broodlords for killing ground, 10-12 queens, 10-12 infestors, and as many corruptors as I can possible handle. With transfuses the broodlords never die so they hold back the thors indefinitely, and I just want to have a monstrously high corruptor count for fighting his vikings, and then I carpet transfuse over anything orange. against ravens you need to keep some kind of spread on the corruptors, which is hard to do.
because I am spending all my time spamming transfuse, I can't really control my infestors very well and it's hard to reactively fungal units as they get close in range. so what I do is expend as much energy as I possibly can on infested terrans right at the beginning of the fight and then focus on using my queens, and only use the infestors if there is a really juicy fungal or neural target.
It works pretty well.
Anything that flies over the infested terrans will die. anything shooting ground has to choose between the broodlings and the infested terrans, and will probably naturally target broodlings first because they are closer. infested terrans are very good against thors and obviously good against air. Not great against tanks or hellions, but thats why you have broodlords too. You can try to target PDDs with infested terrans as well. I also tend to bring overlords into battle, primarily for dropping creep to give my queens some mobility, but also whenever he spreads out vikings against fungals, you will always have vikings and thors at the back of the terran formation who shoot at overlords instead of coming forward to shoot something useful.
With this in mind, I always go double evo against mech, but I stop upgrading carapace. I go +melee/+ranged, even if I am going roach in the midgame. carapace beyond +1 just doesn't cut it against mech if he upgrades. Basically I want to get to hive with +3 attack on both my broodlings and my infested terrans (and my queens!), and you can catch up on carapace later after you are already +3. Start that second spire as soon as possible. While you were waiting for your greater spire to finish, you were banking tons of money (which is natural because you wanted to morph a ton of broodlords) but that's when you want all of your upgrades going at full strength. Upgrades cost time more than they cost money.
Also you may have had a pretty nice timing on his 4th if you hadn't overmade corruptors, but I'm not entirely sure.
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On July 13 2012 03:35 zmansman17 wrote:
There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth.
You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information
I disagree terran does have a deathball with mech that kills like any ground army. That's the only deathball though when they get high food count with pure mech units ^^.
I'll look at the replay just give me 30 minutes or so from this post and i'll edit this or post and tell you what you should have done.
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OK, seems like Im the only one who watched the replay. Though I think that there were a few chances in that game when a huge roach or roach/drop attack could have worked (if you accidently happened to be on a such a timing), it is not a stable thing to go for no matter what with what you scouted or could have scouted. Also I think your third was late or you lair was late, one of those things should have started earlier imo, but I think that's all not so important, as the question at hand is, how to beat a Terran that gets this army up.
So I think there are multiple ways to do it if it comes this far. One is, to not go Broodlords in the first place when he doesnt have a lot of bases, like in this game here. Rather try to trade with Ultra/ling/infestor multiple times, so that he is not allowed to go for that army in the first place. But then again, a meching player with so many PFs should usually beat Ultras, if he doesn't go for that much air early, so I don't think this is really staple either.
I think it basically comes down to the army composition you had, and if you watch the first battle, I think you could have won if you really controlled well, what I think you didn't do - but it's really hard to do so in this situation.
But what I would have done - basically as an outsider who had the time to think about it and who was in similar situations as well, though not THAT drastically - spread your Broods, the way you did, then spread the corruptors the same way as the Broods. Then you take the infestors, burrow them, move them quite a bit back and shift queue a fuckton of ITs, a-move your corruptors and Broods in, so that they start to hit at the same time when the Infestors throw their balls and then go back to your infestors, unburrow them and start fungaling. With the mass ITs first and the Broodlings first, the Infestors should not get hit a lot (unlike the way you did it, without ITs and without all BLs simoultanously starting an assault). When a Zerg can get this off (so basically has unlimited time to set up the attack, like in your case  ), Zerg can win this fight. Else... hm not so much, BLs don't unsplit fast enough and I think a human being just doesnt have the apm to suddenly unsplit Broods, Corruptors, and throw down a thousand ITs, when these armies meet on the move.
A different approach would be, that you could have sieged the natural and then the production and (f.e on cloud kingdom at the natural)), force him to go through a choke with the Thors.
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On July 13 2012 03:47 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:35 RevBubba wrote:
I am at work so I haven't had time to watch the replay, but neural parasite would work a lot better than trying to fungal ravens, in that composition NP'ing a raven or two that has enough energy for HSM will do a lot of damage, similarly if it is a 200/200 deathball then NP'ing a thor that does splash damage to air would be a pain for him to deal with, even if it only gets off 1-2 volleys per NP, the units will die fast if he is staying clumped up at all.
Using that composition, if he's trying to use the thors to shield ravens from your infestors you can NP the thors, if he's using the ravens to engage and thin the army before thors come in... you can NP the ravens. PDD/HSM are both very powerful tools against his own army. I will add to this post once i watch the replay... Too many ravens to effectivly NP, and i'd say that it was the ravens protecting the thors after watching the replay. It was basically 200/200 mech into sky terran at 3-3 ups vs infestor broodlord with no support.
There were two great places he could have NP'd, the first engagement the ravens did not have much energy for HSM after the initial broodlord hits (3 HSM's left) and ~16 infestors died in the engagement shortly after.
The second was when he had 30+ infestors and made infested terrans, spreading infestors and NP'ing thors would have been a great way to engage the army and trade more cost effectively.
Keep in mind the terran could safely get BC's ONLY because he was able to keep all his thors and ravens alive. he was feeling safe enough to transition where the BC's would be overrun by corruptors.
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I will say for the early game you are doing something a bit wrong. In terms of getting gas so early, getting ling speed and then not taking guys off gas you are not getting enough drones.
at 8:22 in the game (just random time I paused) you should have more then 31 drones. I would work on that as you should have a lot more by 8:30 in the game that is so low xD.
With your overlord before he killed it you could have kept droning instead of making a lot of lings. His tanks were sieged up and he still had a bunker. That is a sign to drone as he is playing defensive and not aggressive at the time.
On a side note that terran was greedy as fuck lol 3 CC with 1 factory then adding 2 armories for double upgrades then 2 more factories then a 4'th CC.
Something I would do if I were you would be to make an overseer as soon as lair finishes and see what the terran is up to. If you could have seen what he was doing you honestly could have done fast drops with roach/ling and killed him. There is no way he would get enough units considering the amount of greed this guy did and you would see it with overseer so it wouldn't be a blind counter either. Just something I would recommend in the future .
Going straight hive wasn't bad either that's an acceptable response to what you saw with the later overseer.
For future reference when you know you are facing mech get neural parasite asap. Very, very useful spell to do vs mech and I would highly recommend it.
I will say you played pretty greedy as well making no units if he had just moved out he could have like A moved to victory xD.
17 corruptors is overkill you had like no units when you made those and no supply to morph them into bl's. I would make a smaller amount next time. And why you made 13 more after you lost your roaches confuses me to. That was a bad decision.
You should have made some more drones as you only had 60 after putting up all those spines and what not, remember that for the future! Also getting an ultra cavern to transition into those if he kills all your bl/corruptor would be a good option to imo.
That wasn't a smart move to send in all your corruptors like you did, lost a lot of them uselessly and thors do great with viking support vs corruptors/bl since corruptors/bl auto clump which makes thors splash do insane damage.
What I would have done if I were you would have been attack with the bl's, once he unsieges tanks move in with infestors to neural/fungel everything. You probably would have won the battle had you done this.
You went from 18 infestors to 1 which is really really bad and that's like a ton of gas wasted T_T.
Then you engaged and lost due to having lost all infestors, no neural and yeah.
Also to be honest I think you still could have won the game. Had you remaxed with ultra/ling/infestors you could have CRUSHED the terrans army and if he used HSM it would have killed his own ravens due to splash since your ultras would be right under them (and you use fungel so they can't move  ).
And I know I am repeating, with 22 infestors you could have thrown down all those IT's and neuraled like his whole army and you probably would have won the fight again. I would highly recommend using that neural with a ground army you will see mech get crushed and then you can fungel his ravens all day long.
Then being super clumped up with bl's and 2-3 hsm's killed all your broods and you just lost most of your army ineffeciently and thus the game. Not sure why you like to fungel mech armies it isn't that effective xD.
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watching rep right now.
Will edit as watching.
4:30
You see the bunker, but instead of just letting it finish and making a spine ( it's too far away I think) you send your drones at the marines and lose three drones... That is a LOT of drones early game. about 1/5 of your economy at the time you lost the drones.
This could even be the biggest mistake of the game. Honestly, what is the bunker going to do to you? It's just wasted minerals by him because it is not close enough to you to do anything other than deny the rightmost 2 mineral patches of mining.
Also, if they put the bunker in the open, you only need to pull six drones and target the bunker, not 8.
5:30
Pull after you have enough gas for speed. It's really bad for your economy not to...
I would have sent two lings to the watchtowers, one ling to the ramp, and one to the third. You see he has reactor hellions and no second gas (from the gas steal) AND that he is still mining gas.
That could mean a couple of things.
1. Marauder Hellion all in
2. Triple CC + Banshees
3. Expand and Banshees + Hellions (pressure) into whatever (probably a delayed 3rd CC)
4. Mech + 3CC
I would say that you got your 3rd and 4th queens way too early, you have 13 larvae sitting there doing nothing.... 6 of those could be drones right now... :/
as a side note, until you have 16 drones mining minerals in your main, you should NOT be rallying drones to your natural. It is actually sooooooooo bad for you and even after reading this you probably don't know how bad I mean .
7:30
Supply blocked at 44/44 with only 1 ovie coming... that just sucks :/
8:30
You got your macro hatch WAY too early. Way too little drones. (only 31...) I think this was because you have /76 supply when you only need /5X(whatever X is, but fifty-something) which is like 5/6 more drones.
I disagree with getting a fifth queen. Honestly, your 3rd and 4th queens are not going to do much late game, and the extra tumours could end up hurting you more than helping you, because of wasting APM. I honestly find it useless to get more than 6 tumours,because you can just spread the tumours less and waste less time spreading tumours... and get more creep spread in the end.
10:30
Lair finishes! Get an overseer and see what the Terran is doing!!!
11:30
Now you make the overseer and scout everything. I honestly feel like you shoiuld cancel the spire and make an infestation pit. If you let it finish only make like 10 mutas, and no more.
12:30
Excellent! You've gotten a 4th base!
... You let the spire finish and make no upgrades for air or make mutas.....
13:30
Hive should probably be started now, probably earlier
14:30
I don't care if this is on topic or not, but hell, get overlord speed and burrow... PLEASE!
15:30
11 infestors with 7 more on the way... too... many... infestors.... (if you're going brood lords)
You are going to need a LOT of corruptors so I think that 18 infestors really is too much...
16:30
Spine it up! Hive just finishes, and Greater Spire starts, so I kind of think that since you need another minute, you should REALLY get spines. I feel like terran can kill you very easily at this time so... just do it. : p
And honestly, 92 drones is a little much anyway, so there should be no problem throwing some of them away !
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I kind of feel like going BL/Infestor/Corruptor is kind of bad vs mech. You're not exploiting their immobile force and they can kill yours, so it really makes no sense at all...
I reccomend ultra/infestor/ling/baneling/Nydus. As soon as they head towards your base you can base race them and (importantly!) kill ALL of the starports/do lots of damage.
Also, it is very easy to find terran out of position, so I find that you can pressure Terran even if they are not heading toward your base.
ex. 21:00 you can put a nydus above the fourth and have some infestors fungal the SCVs.
17:30
great job spreading the overlords. I think you should have more upgrades by now btw. You should have a ling burrowed at every base + overlords pooping creep on them.
18:30
You should be getting upgrades on your greater spire, and i think you should have set up with BL's at the fourth (and not made as many corruptors...)
Add queens into your army please. They help a lot b/c of transfuse
24:30
there should be a spine or 2 at each base + a spore in case of banshees
also, he only has 6 tanks, so I think it would be a good idea to try to spine push him.
25:30
Great! you've started sieging the fourth! Now all you need to do is stay spread out and bring your spines to your brood lords.
Also, good job adding in the queens, but they should have been there earlier : P
27:00
Stop retreating and keep attacking! I think if you bring spines and spores you could beat his army easily (along with some 10 reinforcement corruptors)
27:30
Neural parasite and infested terrans are much better against mech than fungal, but since you have so much energy i think you should be using all three spells. (18 infestors...)
28:00
Yeah if you had the spines and spores you definitely would have won that fight...
29:00
You don't have to seige his fourth, I would go for the natural. you could move your spines/spores back to your 7th base (his 5th base) and move back to them when his army comes
also, you should probably have drops by now even if you aren't going to use them.
30:00
You should have ultra and hydralisk tech, even if you're not going to use it. Surprisingly (i know you're going to say hydras suck) they actually are really good if you can use your broodlings to tank the shots. Even if you're not going to use hydralisks you have so much money it would be ridiculous not to have every tech... including nydus
35:00
You should still have 80 drones (probably more), this is probably the reason why you lost the game. You don't have much gas. Your gasses at your fifth (on the east side) aren't filled... which is really bad..
36:00
you see him go to the top left base and destroy it. You did move your army to his fourth which is a great idea!
Your mistake was that you did not throw out two rows of spread infested terrans to zone him away from your army while you killed the fourth/scvs.
Also... dammit... spread your brood lords... That one seeker missle pretty much lost you the game, but if you had Ultra Ling Infestor with Nydus, that wouldn't happen (!)
I think that's it.
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I feel like the reason you lost is because you went for the army that his army countered. You stayed on brood/Infestor all game and refused to tech switch. He had loads of vikings and an Ultra/Infestor switch could have really done some damage. More importantly, you didn't abuse his immobility at all. You just kept attacking in to his army and planetaries at the fourth. Instead, a few maxed roach drops or muta attacks in the main to eliminate his production and his other bases could have been really good. Either of those two strategies could have beaten him. The problem was going brood infestor against a unit composition designed to defeat it and just attacking repeatedly in to him making inefficient trades.
Mech owns ultras pretty hard. I've never seen anyone use Ultras against mech with any success. What would I do with ultras? Attack into double PFs at his fourth, or into his bases where it's all choked up? What immobility too? I 'abused' that by taking his own bases and mining them out, but apparently he only needed 4 bases. So where would I have attacked with ultras?
I didn't 'refuse' to tech switch, I teched to what I thought was best.
infested terrans, man.
later on you started trying to drown him in infested terrans, but you needed to do that on the first big battle when you still had 16 broodlords.
Do you think pure infestor would have been a good idea instead?
I will say for the early game you are doing something a bit wrong. In terms of getting gas so early, getting ling speed and then not taking guys off gas you are not getting enough drones.
Well I got it reactively to his reactor hellion, and I wasn't quite sure what he was doing (he didnt have an expo for the longest time on the low ground, but I eventually determined he was expanding when I saw that SCV move south with that overlord). That's why I kept gas for a while.
Something I would do if I were you would be to make an overseer as soon as lair finishes and see what the terran is up to. If you could have seen what he was doing you honestly could have done fast drops with roach/ling and killed him. There is no way he would get enough units considering the amount of greed this guy did and you would see it with overseer so it wouldn't be a blind counter either. Just something I would recommend in the future .
Well I did see he was meching, but I find that roach drops don't work too well if Terran gets a lot of tanks, I find it's sort of a gamble. Yea roach drops can be really good against mech, but if it doesn't I feel you end up really far behind. I prefer the 'safer' macro route of going broodlords quicker.
17 corruptors is overkill you had like no units when you made those and no supply to morph them into bl's. I would make a smaller amount next time. And why you made 13 more after you lost your roaches confuses me to. That was a bad decision.
I knew he wasn't pushing anytime soon so I decided to max out on corruptors, and then extractor trick broodlords, which is what I ended up doing. I threw away those roaches so I could make more corruptors. You see I try to spore trick out once at 200/200 corruptors, it didn't work too well because I didnt have a bank yet, but I just waited a minute and then did it.
Okay so I'll try to spam more IT next time. And I guess against sky terran, go ultras?
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infested terrans, man.
later on you started trying to drown him in infested terrans, but you needed to do that on the first big battle when you still had 16 broodlords.
Do you think pure infestor would have been a good idea instead?
No, that way your army will die to tanks ez...
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Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
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On July 13 2012 06:33 blade55555 wrote:
Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
add nydus! Although on this map it isn't too good, I would say on maps like Metropolis, Shakuras, etc. Nydus can be AWESOME. gives you so much mobility.
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Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
Really? I've never heard of this, I thought ultras sucking against mech was 'common knowledge'. Like ultra vs thor, ultra vs mass siege tanks, ultras vs PF's...
I'd love to see a replay/vod of this, because I've never seen it happen. Or is it that ultras are good against sky terran? In which case I'd still like to see a rep.
But Ive never heard anyone say ultras vs mech...
4:30
You see the bunker, but instead of just letting it finish and making a spine ( it's too far away I think) you send your drones at the marines and lose three drones... That is a LOT of drones early game. about 1/5 of your economy at the time you lost the drones.
This could even be the biggest mistake of the game. Honestly, what is the bunker going to do to you? It's just wasted minerals by him because it is not close enough to you to do anything other than deny the rightmost 2 mineral patches of mining.
Also, if they put the bunker in the open, you only need to pull six drones and target the bunker, not 8.
But the bunker would deny mining and allow him to make a 2nd bunker, as well put more marines in said bunker. I know I lost some drones there, but I think I made even with how I responded (he lost a couple marines, an SCV, and made a bunker which delays his build)
I think the bunker would have done a lot more than just deny the right 2 patches. With reinforcing marines I think he could take the hatch, or put a 2nd bunker and have done a lot more damage. As it stood, I was okay with losing 3 drones because I killed an SCV, he built a bunker which basically delays his build by like 2 scvs, and a couple marines. I think I bungled the execution though, I was trying to pull back the weak drone but I think somehow I sent like only 2 drones at first, then more, and I was trying to make the get there all the same time.
5:30
I would have sent two lings to the watchtowers, one ling to the ramp, and one to the third. You see he has reactor hellions and no second gas (from the gas steal) AND that he is still mining gas.
That could mean a couple of things.
1. Marauder Hellion all in
2. Triple CC + Banshees
3. Expand and Banshees + Hellions (pressure) into whatever (probably a delayed 3rd CC)
4. Mech + 3CC
I would say that you got your 3rd and 4th queens way too early, you have 13 larvae sitting there doing nothing.... 6 of those could be drones right now... :/
as a side note, until you have 16 drones mining minerals in your main, you should NOT be rallying drones to your natural. It is actually sooooooooo bad for you and even after reading this you probably don't know how bad I mean .
My lings saw the reactor hellion at his wall-off. At first I wasn't sure he expanded, but based on how he was playing I figured he expanded, but I wasn't sure if he was doing a banshee follow-up.
Why do you think rallying drones to my natural is a bad thing? Every pro zerg I watch does this in ZvT / Hatch first. If you watch the early game, you'll notice I meticulously drone pair.
So what this means, is I have 16 paired drones in the main, none in the natural. So I rally the rest of the drones to my natural, until 16 are there, and then I reset rally points. Maynarding hurts you in sc2, unless the next hatch was made wayyy later (ie pylon block), but you see this in ZvP too - people will rally to the natural, then rally to the third. For zerg, it's better to rally than to maynard, because it means more drones early on. If you aren't making drones, then yes, it's more money to maynard over the long term. But rallying means more money in the short term, which means more drones early on, which has an exponential increase in drones for zerg, so it's better to rally, not maynard.
Plus, I drone pair, so I think that is why rallying is better than maynarding in the instance of Hatch First.
Oh i see, I think maybe because I pulled like 6 drones, it was uneven. i see.
7:30
Supply blocked at 44/44 with only 1 ovie coming... that just sucks :/
Didn't he kill an overlord or something? I always make an overlord at 32, then another at 36, and it times out perfectly with the injects. I think that may have tripped me up there.
8:30
You got your macro hatch WAY too early. Way too little drones. (only 31...) I think this was because you have /76 supply when you only need /5X(whatever X is, but fifty-something) which is like 5/6 more drones.
I disagree with getting a fifth queen. Honestly, your 3rd and 4th queens are not going to do much late game, and the extra tumours could end up hurting you more than helping you, because of wasting APM. I honestly find it useless to get more than 6 tumours,because you can just spread the tumours less and waste less time spreading tumours... and get more creep spread in the end.
Isn't 6 queen the standard build these days?
The reason I go 5 queen is because of 3 bases, 1 macro hatch, 1 for dedicated creep spread. I think that's a lot less than 6.
11:30
Now you make the overseer and scout everything. I honestly feel like you shoiuld cancel the spire and make an infestation pit. If you let it finish only make like 10 mutas, and no more.
I didn't make any mutas. I used to cancel the spire when I scouted mech with an overseer, but I don't do that anymore. I just keep it for the lategame. It's useful in case Terran does some weird mech hellion/tank push too. I think it's arguable whether to cancel spire if you see terran is going mech.
If I knew he was going mech before I made the spire, I simply would have made an infestation pit instead. But now that I did make a spire, I'm just going to keep it in case of hellion/tank 2 base all-ins, and just because I'll need it eventually.
Hive should probably be started now, probably earlier
I think i started hive when I confirmed terran was making lots of thors instead of making lots of tanks for a push, but I'll keep that in mind. I thought this hive was already quite quick, but I've noticed I lose a lot of games because my hive is too late, so I'll remember that I should start getting hive earlier than I usually do.
there should be a spine or 2 at each base + a spore in case of banshees
also, he only has 6 tanks, so I think it would be a good idea to try to spine push him.
Well I knew there was no banshees, and I had infestors out. The spines are for the hellion harass, so I had at least 2 spines at each 'outer' base. And I considered massing spines, but I don't think that's a good idea against mech. Every time I've tried that against mech, it doesn't work well.
Mass spore is okay against Terran, for the vikings though. I usually do that, but didn't here.
35:00
You should still have 90 drones, this is probably the reason why you lost the game. You don't have much gas. Your gasses at your fifth aren't filled
yea that sucked. I noticed that. But I don't know, there wasn't really any army I could make at that point to beat what he had.
I think I had an opportunity to win at the fourth, as you guys say, by if I had used my 18 infestors to spam IT around and had been much more aggressive. But he had TWO pf's there, that sucked, and tons of repairing SCVs. And then, with that opportunity gone, there was no way to win anymore I guess. I also maybe should have gone for the natural instead of his fourth?
Thanks for your analysis. I'm going to rewatch again to see more of what you mean, you seem confident that I had the game when I felt like I had lost.
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Go ultra/ling/bling/infestor/nydus...
It's way better vs. mech imo, but BL/Infestor/Corruptor is good too I guess ;/
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I have to mention, from the terran side of view, that his unit control and decision making during fights was remarkable good, he hasn't lost any important parts of his lategame army and catched you off guard way too often with his hsm. :/
Basicly, he was the one who has choosen the fight, and you have done him a favor by attacking him in a direct confrontation.
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Do you think pure infestor would have been a good idea instead?
No no no no not at all.
I mean instead of losing 18 infestors with full energy trying to chain fungal one at a time, you could have made more than one hundred infested terrans (literally 100+) at the beginning of the fight to support your 16 broodlords, and then used a few fungals after that.
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On July 13 2012 06:51 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
Really? I've never heard of this, I thought ultras sucking against mech was 'common knowledge'. Like ultra vs thor, ultra vs mass siege tanks, ultras vs PF's... I'd love to see a replay/vod of this, because I've never seen it happen. Or is it that ultras are good against sky terran? In which case I'd still like to see a rep. But Ive never heard anyone say ultras vs mech...
I think this is only half true. From my experience ultra ling infestor works ONLY if you force them to tie up their supply into vikings/thors/ravens, then switch into it with a re-max once your army dies. Most terrans will suicide their tanks when they see you go for a heavy air composition with little to no ground support, which is really where ling ultra infestor shines.
Without enough tanks, the terran cannot focus down your infestors and stop you from NPing a lot of the thors, lings surround and dont get hit by a ton of splash damage (except for HSM which will generally hit their thors too bc they are so fast to surround). Vikings are just bad against anything on the ground really, and the Terran won't have enough HSM to kill ALL your ultralisks before you clean up. If the terran keeps 5+ tanks in his composition in order to be ready for this switch (and keeps a defensive position) then it becomes very hard to engage his army head-on.
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I haven't had the most success in this department but there are some ways to try to defeat this scary mech army.
First option is: don't let him get it. If you don't take any big damage from hellion harass early in the game you can usually max on roaches very quickly. Normally what i do from this point is load up half of them and drop them in the main and use the rest to attack a third/outside expansion while hes trying to clear up his main. This isn't really viable on cloud kingdom and he also made quite a few turrets here. If you have an opportunity though you can simply drop all your roaches on his army. This might not kill his army but it will destroy a big chunk of it. Then you can simply remax instantly off the back of your great econ and finish him. This works surprisingly well let me tell you.
I definitely have more success using these roach attacks then i do when i get taken into a late game. The problem with broods is that the terran should almost always see them coming. Engaging tanks, mass thors and vikings is extremely tricky and i certainly dont have the micro to pull it off. The tanks hit the infestors, the thors hit the corruptors and the vikings can sit safely above and hit everything in the air. It's very difficult.
So my strategy for the late game is to go broods but to not really commit. i make 6 broods and just try and make them commit to sky terran. Then i prepare for a Ultra switch. Basically make sure you have an ultralisk cavern and all your ultra ups, plenty of infestors with neural parasite and do a huge tech switch to ling ultra infestor after a big fight. They should have stopped making tanks and hellions in mass and be3 committing to thor viking. Then you engage with the ultras/lings in the front and once they engage just mass neural parasite. All the thors, any tanks, everything. If you neural enough you should win the fight handily. And if they already committed to sky terran then a few banshees/bc's really should be a problem.
I have some replays of these strategies at work but i don't have time to find them right now so i'll edit this post when i do find them and put them in.
Good luck!
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dropping can work if he is stupid and doesnt use mass vikings + sensor towers to crush it
i honestly dont think this is abusing a bug, but infested terrans are incredibly more powerful when you use the mousescroll trick
just set your mouse scroll to leftclick and you can launch 100 infested terrans in 2 seconds rather than 15 seconds
13 infested can launch 100 infested terrans. with 3/3 upgrades they are insanely powerful
when the terran has lots of vikings like that the counter is ultras. tons and tons of ultras.
attack his PF line with 10 ultras and then use 13 infestors to launch 90 infested terrans and maybe a couple fungals
10 ultras and 13 infestors is 86food and can deal tons of damage to even a 200food fortified terran position (assuming the terran had 20 vikings in his comp which triggered you to do a ultra attack). you essentially sacrifice 10 ultras (which costs as much gas as 20 mutalisks) but you do tons more damage than 20 mutalisks would do. and with good micro hopefully you get your infestors out alive
your infestors retreat and regenerate energy and then you can do it again with another 10 ultras when your back to 200 energy
so this way you can attack with 86food into his fortified position, you have 90drones, that leaves 24 food left for base defense (which you should probably always be doing) with your spines since you dont want drops to kill you too badly while attacking. hmmm that 24food is probably a few queens and defensive infestors/whatever
after the ultralisks die you can pump out more 3/3 ultra/roach and play very defensive on your side of the map while your infestors generate energy again
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On July 13 2012 03:35 zmansman17 wrote:
There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth.
You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information
User was warned for this post
I don't understand why this user was warned. Seems like everything he said made sense
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On July 13 2012 07:50 Dontkillme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:35 zmansman17 wrote:
There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth.
You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information
User was warned for this post I don't understand why this user was warned. Seems like everything he said made sense
He didn't watch the replay, didn't give information based on the replay and his information was false. That is why he was warned. Mech players can get a fourth and going mech does have a deathballish type of army that crushes every unit except like broodlords or ultra/ling/infestor with neural and flanks.
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Im calling MOD harassment im sure ill get banned for sayin this but im serious, people are getting temp banned and warned for nothing rofl, some idiot mod typed ill check replay later " if u mods are gonna be that picky, then u should temp bann urself aswell because it is against the strategy guidelines to give any advice without evidence and if there is a replay must watch before posting- SKabam~ just saying though alot of mods juts throw warnings for no reason everywhere.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 13 2012 07:57 CFCryptos wrote:
Im calling MOD harassment im sure ill get banned for sayin this but im serious, people are getting temp banned and warned for nothing rofl, some idiot mod typed ill check replay later " if u mods are gonna be that picky, then u should temp bann urself aswell because it is against the strategy guidelines to give any advice without evidence and if there is a replay must watch before posting- SKabam~ just saying though alot of mods juts throw warnings for no reason everywhere.
its not hard to avoid problems with the mods
that guys post clearly had a snobby "your wrong" tone to it.... if you just post nicely with a nice friendly "your wrong heres why i think so" tone you probably wont get problems with mods
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On July 13 2012 07:57 CFCryptos wrote:
Im calling MOD harassment im sure ill get banned for sayin this but im serious, people are getting temp banned and warned for nothing rofl, some idiot mod typed ill check replay later " if u mods are gonna be that picky, then u should temp bann urself aswell because it is against the strategy guidelines to give any advice without evidence and if there is a replay must watch before posting- SKabam~ just saying though alot of mods juts throw warnings for no reason everywhere.
You are going to get banned you are martying. They ban no matter how logical your post would be when martying ^_^. Also no mods have posted in this topic so not sure what you are talking about in terms of mod lol.
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If you remax on ultra/ling/bling/infestor after a broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, what's stopping the terran from using his vikings to own every single overlord you have? How do you handle this?
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United States4883 Posts
The way SC2 is balanced out (asymmetrically) is that terran has a higher tier than zerg. Mech is like the tier 3 strongest standard, cost effective army for terran. When you add in BC/Ravens, you kind of get a tier 4. We talked a lot about late game terran armies and such in an old thread: Terran lategame discussion
BL/infestor is a strong composition, and zerg can get it's top tier way faster than everyone else, but it just CANNOT win a straight-up engagement with a higher tier. In the end, it's quite obvious terran has a WAY more powerful army than zerg once ravens and/or BCs are up. That being said, the balance for zerg is that it can instantly remax and it can instantly tech switch. Zerg's strength against mech in particular is being able to max out on BL/infestor, then max out on roaches, then max out on muta/ling, then max out on BL/infestor again.
Also, mutas are AWESOME against mech. If you can make like 6-8 mutas when he's on 3 bases, you can generally cause him some grief, assuming you don't open yourself up to a mech doom push. When you're on like 6-7 bases versus 4-base, don't be afraid to trade and then remax on a different tech path like muta/ling or pure roach and start attacking everywhere.
EXTRA INFO: Protoss maxes out at a tier 3. Their balance comes in the fact that they can essentially remove an entire tier from their opponent with the Mothership vortex. Mothership acts like a tier 4 in that it allows the lesser army of protoss to take on armies that should be substantially stronger. I think we all remember the 13 BC vortex snag from Mvp vs Squirtle....
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On July 13 2012 09:14 SC2John wrote:The way SC2 is balanced out (asymmetrically) is that terran has a higher tier than zerg. Mech is like the tier 3 strongest standard, cost effective army for terran. When you add in BC/Ravens, you kind of get a tier 4. We talked a lot about late game terran armies and such in an old thread: Terran lategame discussionBL/infestor is a strong composition, and zerg can get it's top tier way faster than everyone else, but it just CANNOT win a straight-up engagement with a higher tier. In the end, it's quite obvious terran has a WAY more powerful army than zerg once ravens and/or BCs are up. That being said, the balance for zerg is that it can instantly remax and it can instantly tech switch. Zerg's strength against mech in particular is being able to max out on BL/infestor, then max out on roaches, then max out on muta/ling, then max out on BL/infestor again. Also, mutas are AWESOME against mech. If you can make like 6-8 mutas when he's on 3 bases, you can generally cause him some grief, assuming you don't open yourself up to a mech doom push. When you're on like 6-7 bases versus 4-base, don't be afraid to trade and then remax on a different tech path like muta/ling or pure roach and start attacking everywhere. EXTRA INFO: Protoss maxes out at a tier 3. Their balance comes in the fact that they can essentially remove an entire tier from their opponent with the Mothership vortex. Mothership acts like a tier 4 in that it allows the lesser army of protoss to take on armies that should be substantially stronger. I think we all remember the 13 BC vortex snag from Mvp vs Squirtle....
Don't be a fool, there are unitcounters for everything in this game and as long as you have the right ratio to your opponents units, you can win with proper control, if you can "just" produce enough of them.
And though all techpaths are different, essentiall you cannot talk about one race having higher Tier compositions. If anything, just don't talk about Tiers at all once all techs for all races are unlocked, as it simply doesnt make sense. Tier in Stacraft is meant to be a techrequirement, but unlike a lot of other RTS games (SupCom comes to mind), higher Tier doesn't generally mean better unit.
And sry to be mean, but that stuff about T4 Terran and mothership removing a Tier... that's just wrong. The game is not balanced like this, the game is balanced like "here we have a bunch of concepts for units and their techrequirements. Lets see if they work"
And mutas are not "awesome" vs mech. If you just watch the replay, his opponent had turrets everywhere, he did not go mass tank but mostly Thors and Ravens and Vikings are both OK vs mutas as well. There was absolutly no space for mutaharassment in this game. Muta/Roach switches can be great, but you have to be aggressive early on with that...
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As per the posters above, I suggest you also use NP, but use it on SCVs, then have the SCV to build a command center, and then build up an equally powerful deathball yourself
User was warned for this post
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On July 13 2012 08:15 wcr.4fun wrote:
If you remax on ultra/ling/bling/infestor after a broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, what's stopping the terran from using his vikings to own every single overlord you have? How do you handle this?
Move your overlords to queen support, use infestors and just fungel and kill them. Build a couple spors and then put overlords in that safety zone. Many ways you can deal with them ^^
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On July 13 2012 11:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:14 SC2John wrote:The way SC2 is balanced out (asymmetrically) is that terran has a higher tier than zerg. Mech is like the tier 3 strongest standard, cost effective army for terran. When you add in BC/Ravens, you kind of get a tier 4. We talked a lot about late game terran armies and such in an old thread: Terran lategame discussionBL/infestor is a strong composition, and zerg can get it's top tier way faster than everyone else, but it just CANNOT win a straight-up engagement with a higher tier. In the end, it's quite obvious terran has a WAY more powerful army than zerg once ravens and/or BCs are up. That being said, the balance for zerg is that it can instantly remax and it can instantly tech switch. Zerg's strength against mech in particular is being able to max out on BL/infestor, then max out on roaches, then max out on muta/ling, then max out on BL/infestor again. Also, mutas are AWESOME against mech. If you can make like 6-8 mutas when he's on 3 bases, you can generally cause him some grief, assuming you don't open yourself up to a mech doom push. When you're on like 6-7 bases versus 4-base, don't be afraid to trade and then remax on a different tech path like muta/ling or pure roach and start attacking everywhere. EXTRA INFO: Protoss maxes out at a tier 3. Their balance comes in the fact that they can essentially remove an entire tier from their opponent with the Mothership vortex. Mothership acts like a tier 4 in that it allows the lesser army of protoss to take on armies that should be substantially stronger. I think we all remember the 13 BC vortex snag from Mvp vs Squirtle.... Don't be a fool, there are unitcounters for everything in this game and as long as you have the right ratio to your opponents units, you can win with proper control, if you can "just" produce enough of them. And though all techpaths are different, essentiall you cannot talk about one race having higher Tier compositions. If anything, just don't talk about Tiers at all once all techs for all races are unlocked, as it simply doesnt make sense. Tier in Stacraft is meant to be a techrequirement, but unlike a lot of other RTS games (SupCom comes to mind), higher Tier doesn't generally mean better unit. And sry to be mean, but that stuff about T4 Terran and mothership removing a Tier... that's just wrong. The game is not balanced like this, the game is balanced like "here we have a bunch of concepts for units and their techrequirements. Lets see if they work" And mutas are not "awesome" vs mech. If you just watch the replay, his opponent had turrets everywhere, he did not go mass tank but mostly Thors and Ravens and Vikings are both OK vs mutas as well. There was absolutly no space for mutaharassment in this game. Muta/Roach switches can be great, but you have to be aggressive early on with that...
sc2 may not be intentionally balanced this way, however he is right in a sense that the ultimate 200food terran army cannot be defeated by the ultimate 200food zerg army
hopefully the zerg has enough economy so when he loses his army, he can keep remaxing and swarming the terrans army
also strangely this applies for toss as well, however it has less to do with mothership/vortex and more to do with carrier/voidray/storm/a couple archons. thats the ultimate toss army and no zerg army can touch it. vortex is needed to allow stalker/archon to beat zergs mega army, but if toss has their strongest army (carrier/voidray/storm/archon) vortex isnt needed but the motherships still powerful for the cloaking field.
were seeing more and more pro tosses learning how to win with this ultimate army. we saw one game where squirtle got that army against coca in their showmatch a few days ago and coca just got slaughtered like no tomorrow
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wow, blade is really smart...
Stream more please! <3
And link me to your stream so i can favourite it : P.
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On July 13 2012 12:40 NOOBALOPSE wrote:
wow, blade is really smart...
Stream more please! <3
And link me to your stream so i can favourite it : P.
haha thanks my teamliquid stream link http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/blade55555
I try my best to look smart :p
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United States4883 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:14 SC2John wrote:The way SC2 is balanced out (asymmetrically) is that terran has a higher tier than zerg. Mech is like the tier 3 strongest standard, cost effective army for terran. When you add in BC/Ravens, you kind of get a tier 4. We talked a lot about late game terran armies and such in an old thread: Terran lategame discussionBL/infestor is a strong composition, and zerg can get it's top tier way faster than everyone else, but it just CANNOT win a straight-up engagement with a higher tier. In the end, it's quite obvious terran has a WAY more powerful army than zerg once ravens and/or BCs are up. That being said, the balance for zerg is that it can instantly remax and it can instantly tech switch. Zerg's strength against mech in particular is being able to max out on BL/infestor, then max out on roaches, then max out on muta/ling, then max out on BL/infestor again. Also, mutas are AWESOME against mech. If you can make like 6-8 mutas when he's on 3 bases, you can generally cause him some grief, assuming you don't open yourself up to a mech doom push. When you're on like 6-7 bases versus 4-base, don't be afraid to trade and then remax on a different tech path like muta/ling or pure roach and start attacking everywhere. EXTRA INFO: Protoss maxes out at a tier 3. Their balance comes in the fact that they can essentially remove an entire tier from their opponent with the Mothership vortex. Mothership acts like a tier 4 in that it allows the lesser army of protoss to take on armies that should be substantially stronger. I think we all remember the 13 BC vortex snag from Mvp vs Squirtle.... Don't be a fool, there are unitcounters for everything in this game and as long as you have the right ratio to your opponents units, you can win with proper control, if you can "just" produce enough of them. And though all techpaths are different, essentiall you cannot talk about one race having higher Tier compositions. If anything, just don't talk about Tiers at all once all techs for all races are unlocked, as it simply doesnt make sense. Tier in Stacraft is meant to be a techrequirement, but unlike a lot of other RTS games (SupCom comes to mind), higher Tier doesn't generally mean better unit. And sry to be mean, but that stuff about T4 Terran and mothership removing a Tier... that's just wrong. The game is not balanced like this, the game is balanced like "here we have a bunch of concepts for units and their techrequirements. Lets see if they work" And mutas are not "awesome" vs mech. If you just watch the replay, his opponent had turrets everywhere, he did not go mass tank but mostly Thors and Ravens and Vikings are both OK vs mutas as well. There was absolutly no space for mutaharassment in this game. Muta/Roach switches can be great, but you have to be aggressive early on with that...
"Unit counters" are a logically fallacy. 4 hellions versus 4 roaches = ???. I mean, in a straight-up fight, roaches win for sure, hellions can win with a ton of micro. And then what if we talk about 20 hellions versus 4 roaches? Hellions win every time, even in a straight-up engagement. There are units that DO WELL against others, but no unit ACTUALLY counters another. If you want another prevalent example: zealot versus roaches, zealots win a 1-on-1 battle with no micro.
Assuming your definition of "tier" is a techpath, I still contend that terran and protoss have a special tier above zerg. As said above, the "ultimate zerg army" gets straight up crushed against the "ultimate protoss army" or the "ultimate terran army". If you can't consider all the extra tech needed for Ravens (5 upgrades), BC (Fusion core), or mothership/carriers (Fleet Beacon) part of a separate ULTRA LATEGAME TECH that allows terran and protoss to get ahead, how can you justify the fact that zerg loses in every one of those battles? It's just a FACT, part of the set of rules put forth in SC2. It's okay, zerg's power isn't in having an unstoppable army; their power is in the fact that they have insta-remaxes and insta-tech switches. They can also get to their "ultimate zerg army" much faster than any other race.
I have not watched the replay yet, but I suspect the primary difficulty facing Belial was probably an inability to do successful tech switches against a turtly meching player. I will watch the replay and comment on exactly what I see tomorrow. I just think it's important for everyone to understand where the power of zerg, terran, and protoss armies lie; if you know where their power lies, you can find their weaknesses.
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11 infestors with 7 more on the way... too... many... infestors.... (if you're going brood lords)
You are going to need a LOT of corruptors so I think that 18 infestors really is too much...
^This.
Also, you let him turtle too long and max out his army. You said he took a fourth early, but it didn't look early to me. Instead of making so many infestors, you could have dumped the gas into something else like roaches and at could have at least been harassing him. You had plenty of bases and creep to fall back on, and lots of minerals.
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Credential first - Bottom feeder SEA GM
Watched your replay in detail and i agree mostly with what NOOBALOPSE mentioned, but you added your own reasons, so i'll further justify his answers.
Show nested quote +4:30
You see the bunker, but instead of just letting it finish and making a spine ( it's too far away I think) you send your drones at the marines and lose three drones... That is a LOT of drones early game. about 1/5 of your economy at the time you lost the drones.
This could even be the biggest mistake of the game. Honestly, what is the bunker going to do to you? It's just wasted minerals by him because it is not close enough to you to do anything other than deny the rightmost 2 mineral patches of mining.
Also, if they put the bunker in the open, you only need to pull six drones and target the bunker, not 8. But the bunker would deny mining and allow him to make a 2nd bunker, as well put more marines in said bunker. I know I lost some drones there, but I think I made even with how I responded (he lost a couple marines, an SCV, and made a bunker which delays his build) I think the bunker would have done a lot more than just deny the right 2 patches. With reinforcing marines I think he could take the hatch, or put a 2nd bunker and have done a lot more damage. As it stood, I was okay with losing 3 drones because I killed an SCV, he built a bunker which basically delays his build by like 2 scvs, and a couple marines. I think I bungled the execution though, I was trying to pull back the weak drone but I think somehow I sent like only 2 drones at first, then more, and I was trying to make the get there all the same time.
Doing what you did was okay if you had not bungled your drone micro. A better response would be to not pull drones, make 6 lings, send the 6 lings to deny reinforcement. Once both your queen pops, inject and send them down to snipe the bunker and scv, using the queens to tank the initial shots. You scouted gas(single rax reinforcement) and you could have mined from the further patches until your queen popped.
5:30
Pull after you have enough gas for speed. It's really bad for your economy not to...
You did not respond to this so i'll further stress this. By the time you went for lair you had 300 going on 400 gas. It could have been at least another 5 -6 drones there.
Another point here is that you do not need your 4th queen so early. A 2-base spanishiwa build can support 4 queens without interruption to droning, but a speed first build cannot, which coupled with your gas income, severely affected your drone count.
Add on the queens a little later. I do not disagree with the number of queens as i believe is a matter of playing style. It's just a matter of timing. What i do is i judge when my 3rd is finishing, send my nat queen over there just after an inject and build a queen at my nat.
Some extra notes on macro:-
1) Upgrades were slow - He was upgrading 3/3 when you were upgrading 1/2. You had the gas for it, throw down the evo chamber. Ground attack upgrades are VERY important when dealing with mech. With the amount of powering going on, you could consider getting a 2nd spire, since you had the economy to support it. Both air upgrades help tremendously in clearing up air units and tanking thor's air aoe.
2) At the moment your broodlord popped, you were on 6 base gas and later on 7 base. That's too much at that stage. Some people work on 4 base gas. 5 base gas is beautiful. 6 base is overkill. If you had your drones on mineral instead, you couldve morphed your broodlords that much earlier with the oversupply trick.
3) Exceeding supply - You can do it another way by morphing broods first, and then spine and build your corrupter. During that time, your broods could've started siege on the 4th of his with the support of a handful of corrupters and the many infestors you have.
4) I noticed that you did not hotkey all your hatchery late game. Not so important in this case, yet if ever you go to a game where you want to tech switch this would be important
Engagements
1) Most of your battles, you were just too afraid of the heat seeker missiles. There is no choice but for you to initiate the engagement. Terrans will just wait to max out on supply and energy. You were controlling your units separately almost every engagement. Either your broodlords were shooting, or your infestors were fungaling/throwing infested terrans, and your corrupters idling. Your queens did nothing btw. The initial broodlord spread & engagement at the 4th was beautiful. You should've maintained it, and with the broodlings below your infestors could have just waddled in to fungal and throw infested terrans with impunity. Don't back away just because he threw down 2 point defense drone.
2) Better army composition - I believe you had too many infestors. Probably switch some of them to corrupters as he was quite air heavy.
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Also, you let him turtle too long and max out his army. You said he took a fourth early, but it didn't look early to me. Instead of making so many infestors, you could have dumped the gas into something else like roaches and at could have at least been harassing him. You had plenty of bases and creep to fall back on, and lots of minerals.
I never said he took an early fourth. i said he eventually took a fourth. It really doesn't sound like you watched the replay. What harass would I have been able to do against a walled off Terran with multiple PF's everywhere?
You did not respond to this so i'll further stress this. By the time you went for lair you had 300 going on 400 gas. It could have been at least another 5 -6 drones there.
Another point here is that you do not need your 4th queen so early. A 2-base spanishiwa build can support 4 queens without interruption to droning, but a speed first build cannot, which coupled with your gas income, severely affected your drone count.
Add on the queens a little later. I do not disagree with the number of queens as i believe is a matter of playing style. It's just a matter of timing. What i do is i judge when my 3rd is finishing, send my nat queen over there just after an inject and build a queen at my nat.
But isn't the whole thing right now is like 6 queen in ZvT?
Now, I understand that is vs 1 rax FE, but I also thought the idea was that 'herp derp zerg can do whatever they want and just go 6 queen fast third?". I don't think it's exactly like that, but I got quick speed, made a couple lings for the reactor hellion, and then went up to 5 queen while taking a third and denying any attempt of terran to deny it.
Also, I think the response against reactor hellion is about 400 minerals in defense - or 2 extra queens, 1 extra queen and a spine, with some lings. I wasn't trying to be turtley, I just think I needed that to defend against the reactor hellion and then secure my third against it.
I'll try to be more aware about cutting gas now on after speed though. I think I wasn't sure what his follow-up was, so I kept mining.
2) At the moment your broodlord popped, you were on 6 base gas and later on 7 base. That's too much at that stage. Some people work on 4 base gas. 5 base gas is beautiful. 6 base is overkill. If you had your drones on mineral instead, you couldve morphed your broodlords that much earlier with the oversupply trick.
hmm okay. Thanks.
3) Exceeding supply - You can do it another way by morphing broods first, and then spine and build your corrupter. During that time, your broods could've started siege on the 4th of his with the support of a handful of corrupters and the many infestors you have.
I see. Well I was considering doing the whole run-in-with-corruptors-snipe-shit like people sometimes do against motherships. I supppose though what you say is better in zvt though.
4) I noticed that you did not hotkey all your hatchery late game. Not so important in this case, yet if ever you go to a game where you want to tech switch this would be important
I dont hotkey hatches that are in awkward places, like at his expos, so reinforcements dont get cut during a battle, etc.
1) Most of your battles, you were just too afraid of the heat seeker missiles. There is no choice but for you to initiate the engagement. Terrans will just wait to max out on supply and energy. You were controlling your units separately almost every engagement. Either your broodlords were shooting, or your infestors were fungaling/throwing infested terrans, and your corrupters idling. Your queens did nothing btw. The initial broodlord spread & engagement at the 4th was beautiful. You should've maintained it, and with the broodlings below your infestors could have just waddled in to fungal and throw infested terrans with impunity. Don't back away just because he threw down 2 point defense drone.
Hm, I see a lot of people saying that I could have won the game there, and thanks, I appreciate it. I should have went all the way in there, and thrown in my infestors.
I kind of felt IT would not have been useful becdause of the 2xPF and siege tanks though, but I'll spam them next time.
But I'm also a bit lost at what happens after that, or do you think after this point, I was truly lost?
Thanks for your input! I know most people have to pay for someone like you and Blade55555's input.
As per the posters above, I suggest you also use NP, but use it on SCVs, then have the SCV to build a command center, and then build up an equally powerful deathball yourself
lol... if you watched the replay you'd notice I tried to do that. There are a few practical problems with this advice though.
Thanks everyone for your help. I think what is being boiled down here is:
1. Should have been more aggressive with my broodlords, and gone for a timing attack, rather than giving Terran so much time and going for some sort of dream, 220/200 tricked army, and spammed IT with it as well.
2. Ultras are good vs Skymech
3. Should not expand all over the map to the detriment of mineral economy.
Just a few things I have questions about:
1. So after my initial engagement where I did not spam IT's enough or was aggressive enough (even against his entire army + 2 PF's there, I'm a bit hesitant that would have worked, but next time I recognize an 'oh boy this will take another hour' game I'll do more to end it before the deathball is out), was the game just lost for me? Maybe this time was like 10 minutes, but I'm just curious when did the game, in your opinion, get to a point where I had no chance to win?
2. Early game, i get my drone count was hurt by 5 queens and speed, but I wasn't exactly sure what Terran was doing, and only deduced he was expanding after I saw an SCV move to the southern edge where Terran's tend to be put CCs (or starports). Also, I know 6 queen is like the standard build these days, but personally my build is ~30 gas (make it around 24 if they open 1 base), 5 queen, and quick third. I didn't do the spanishiwa build in this game, i went fast third, with mass queen, but with a gas at ~24. I didn't remove from gas simply because i wasn't too sure if Terran was 1 basing or not...
I guess this is more of "is my build good?" question, but I find things like 1 rax FE into reactor hellion , banshee really requires speedlings. And against reactor hellion maybe I should have only made 4 queens and speed? I just wanted to secure my third.
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I never said he took an early fourth. i said he eventually took a fourth. It really doesn't sound like you watched the replay. What harass would I have been able to do against a walled off Terran with multiple PF's everywhere?
Allow me to quote your OP.
He takes a fourth pretty quickly, ...
Also, I watched the replay, which was quite lengthly. I don't play Zerg or Terran, and I'm not as skilled as the two of you are, so I can't give you specific advice, but I will reiterate what I said before: you let him max out mech without any trouble. A maxed out Terran mech army is really hard to beat, for anybody.
You sat on your butt for 25 minutes, and when you finally attacked, you did a poor job. You had no buffer for your infestors and your corruptors were separated from your broods. Instead of attacking him at his foruth, where he was entrenched, you could have taken the corruptors and broods up and around and attacked his main. His slow army would have taken forever to get up there. If he had gone for a base trade you would have almost surely won. You had more bases for him to kill and his army is slower.
Bottom line: you were too passive and when you did engage, you chose poor ways to do it. At 25 mintues, that game should have been yours. You could have put pressure on him when he was taking his nat, but you were busy playing macro and taking bases, which was ok because it put you in a decent position later, but you didn't use it well.
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Now, I understand that is vs 1 rax FE, but I also thought the idea was that 'herp derp zerg can do whatever they want and just go 6 queen fast third?". I don't think it's exactly like that, but I got quick speed, made a couple lings for the reactor hellion, and then went up to 5 queen while taking a third and denying any attempt of terran to deny it.
when you go 6 queens, you take gas AFTER making six queens. In this game you mined gas for speed, and kept mining, and couldn't spend that gas, so basically you are floating money while still droning, and that's bad. What you did would be okay if you took drones out of gas. If you're ever at a point where you have larva that you can't spend in the early game, you need to consider delaying one of the queens, or delaying gas, or taking drones out of gas again.
I didn't remove from gas simply because i wasn't too sure if Terran was 1 basing or not...
What were you going to spend that gas on even if he was 1 basing? If you leave one drone on gas you can put down a defensive baneling nest, put drones back in gas, and take a 2nd geyser to catch up. Or you can take all drones off gas, and when you spot trouble, put them in back in gas, start a roach warren, and take a 2nd geyser, and you'll have enough gas for a few roaches when the roach warren finishes. Having a gas bank for no reason will just hurt even more against a 1-basing opponent.
I kind of felt IT would not have been useful becdause of the 2xPF and siege tanks though, but I'll spam them next time.
Between broodlings and infested terrans, he won't be able to kill them all nearly quick enough. Especially when his thors are shooting at air instead of ground as well, and especially when he unsieged his tanks due to broodlords. I really recommend continuing to upgrade ranged attack instead of carapace so that your infested marines are really good.
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Against mech I really do like the mobile army of ling/bling/infestor/ultra. With nydus worms at all of your bases, and expanding all around the map, you can really do a lot of damage.
User was warned for this post
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Other than compositional issues, the thing that most often lets me win fights against mech is neural and fungal growth control. You need to have some Infested Terrans ahead of your broodlords, and then keep fungal up whenever the Ravens try to get close. Neural on Ravens is not what I would recommend. If you manage to snag a Thor or two, the Infested Terrans and Broodlings should make it impossible for him to advance enough to kill the Infestors, taking critical amounts of his food and adding it to your army.
- The main concern is the Thor count! If you're capable of eradicating the Thors, you can remax on a Infestor/Corrupter/Ling army and just overrun him.
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when you go 6 queens, you take gas AFTER making six queens. In this game you mined gas for speed, and kept mining, and couldn't spend that gas, so basically you are floating money while still droning, and that's bad. What you did would be okay if you took drones out of gas. If you're ever at a point where you have larva that you can't spend in the early game, you need to consider delaying one of the queens, or delaying gas, or taking drones out of gas again.
Okay, this is what I'm going to do now:
vs 1 base openings (like reactor hellion:
4 queen, ~23 gas for ling speed, take off gas. 5th queen much much later
vs 1raxFE
5 queen, ~32 gas for ling speed, take off gas.
I just feel like I need that ling speed.
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http://drop.sc/227010
Okay, so this game just happened.
ZvT, Shakuras, Mid-masters.
Terran goes mech, I identify it, he actually opens some sort of 1 base all-innish gas first play and I came out way ahead when identified it but even with a huge economic lead it doesn't really matter.
I notice he goes air, so I think that he may not have many siege tanks so I can capitalize on it with a roach attack. It didn't really work out too well, and I tried to go ultra/np and that didn't really work well either, but cut his army a bit.
So eventually he puts PF's all over the middle of the map, he actually does this quite early.
So noticing he has a lot of tanks, and PFs, I think ultras are not the way to go, and instead that I should go BL/Infestor of some sort, and race upgrades. Double evo, double spire, I had 3/3/3/3 pretty early on.
But it doesn't matter. Terran deathball > Zerg deathball.
He has a TON of tanks, so I can't use infestors to get close at all, and I can't get my broodlord/corruptor in at all because he has a TON of vikings/ravens, and the raven count starts to get high real quickly.
Don't know what to do against this sort of play... I don't even think roach aggression works well anymore either. I used to do that, just roach max while getting infestor tech, but now I see that as all-innish, and it won't work if Terran is actually trying to do a mass siege tank/thor 3 base attack (which roach/infestor does okay against, but then why make roaches at all and just go rush broodlords in that case...).
Unlike the last game, mass IT spam doesn't work well because he has a shitload of tanks and PFs. And unlike the last game, ultras don't work well because, well, he has a shitload of PFs and tanks.
I just end up dying to his deathball. In that first rep, Ultra may have worked because he had so much air, but in this game I didn't think ultras would work with is PFs and high siege tank count.
I'm starting to run into this a lot on ladder ;/
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the replay says your opponent is protoss. U sure its zvt?
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^ Edited OP and that post. sorry, im not sure why that happens sometimes.
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hey belial,
just watched both games. Its pretty difficult to find a combination to attack head on. Especially since a slow and steady mech terran will almost always find a good defensive / offensive positions. They can't really be "caught out" like MMM + tanks can be.
I much rather discuss more about compositional / timing / attack strategies without going too much into mechanics and micro, so my points:
a. mech players repair. So if you're going to attack, make sure you at least kill something, you're already being cost ineffective, but at least you have 6 bases. Getting all those infestors / bl killed, and nothing to show for it really hurts. In the Cloud Kingdom game, the Terran's composition had very little tanks, but a very quick 3/3 mech upgrade. I felt that had you your own ultras / infestors with NP, you'll already be more cost-effective.
b. With the Shakuras Plateau game, that was more difficult because he had many tanks and frontal PFs. I think map wise, it was more difficult for you than cloud kingdom.
c. Back to the Cloud Kingdom game, actually although people diss the hydralisk as useless (and it is pretty ineffective), I feel Ultra / Hydra / Infestor combo is probably the best shot composition against Raven, Thor, PF, Vikings. If you can further micro some queens to extend the life of your ultras, Hydras should be able to make short work of Thors and Terran Air. Of course PDD still counters hydralisks but less than corrupters.
d. Most importantly however, I think the best window of opportunity is really in the first 15 mins. After that it all goes downhill. You best opportunity would be to play T2 only, large roach / hydra drops (not just 3 overlords with lings!), baneling drops at mineral lines, I always say have the nydus ready immediately for use the minute you land your drops / use the nydus for queens, drones (spines and spores), bringing and retreating infestors.
With the Shakuras plateau game, even if he has a turret ring, its still better to have dropped, you lose less units than a PF + tank + thor.
Having even 2 nyduses ready might be a good idea for double drop, attack. He has to split his troops or decide to save one location before another. Splitting up his slow immobile costly troops is probably the better way to be cost effective. Rather than fight the terran "deathball".
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'30min no rush' to and cry that terran has imba deathball
User was warned for this post
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Belial, after watching the replay I have to wonder, why the gas in the natural as the first gas? You're losing mining time just by transfering drones over to the natural, and then to the gas. Instead of just sending them after they deliver minerals straight into the gas. On top of having the ability to still collect gas during a hellion driveby into your natural, and having it unscouted for longer.
If you are going to take that gas around that time, be sure to actually do something with the gas. You were up at around 200-300 before you actually did something with it and spend it all at the same time. With a gas that early, you could take an evolution chamber in your natural while speed was building and have enough time to squeeze in a carapace upgrade a good 20 seconds earlier than you did. When taking an early gas, I tend to go lair after the first upgrade, since the lair will be done quick enough in relation to a late gas build, and you can increase the timing window where Zerglings and Roaches are more effective. With a late gas, I don't find that a similar extended timing window to be worth rushing for, so I go lair before upgrade. When facing an air build like you, I tend to get lair after the first queen in the main. Because that still gives you time to get a nice queen force out for fending off Banshees, and in the case of a 2 port banshee noob you need sporecrawlers to defend anyway.
Against mech or a Hellion opening, I tend to put the Roach warren straight at the entrance of my natural to make the choke tinier and to actually alert the terran 'Hey, I have roaches now, no mass hellion barbeque here'. It's one of the least used tech in ZvT anyway ( aside from the early game and midgame ) so losing it isn't such a terrible loss and it helps a lot against Hellions.
The biggest selling point of mech are it's smooth timings. The early hellions defend against any zergling-baneling agression. Even if the Zerg has gone for a mass Roach investment terran tends to have enough Thors out to defend the third, and the Thors tend to line up with the first Mutalisks as well, allowing the terran to skimp on Marines and missile turrets until the Thors have spawned. This is one of the biggest area's to exploit, because Mech's air defense tends to be terrible until it really get's going. But when the air defense has finally become advanced enough, even Broodlords die to mass Thors.
One of my latest revelations against Mech has been exploiting that abysmal air defence window, with Overseers. Now I know what you're thinking, 'Overseers? You might as well suggest nydus worms', but hear me out. Contaminate doesn't take too long to collect, and an Overseer is 50 minerals and 50 gas a piece. If you get like 4 or 5 overseers after a reasonable lair, four contaminates will be done quite quickly. That same gas could have been spent on 8 extra Roaches, but you have extra gas if you don't want to overcommit on Roaches. This investment will give you an almost guarranteed few contaminates off on the factories with techlabs, delaying the thor count. Mech skimps on air defense a LOT in those early stages, so they can't stop four Overseers. Delaying those thors for 30 seconds gives the terran an enormous delay.
Not only do they have to invest in air other than Thors ( they don't do jack against Overseers, they can fly back in with enough energy for another nigh-game ending contaminate ), but his thorcount is lowered immensely. The terran won't be able to deal with a mass roach attack on his third and you will take it out, or if he went for a 2 base all in, that is now delayed by a huge amount, allowing you to get a huge amount of extra roaches out, making the 2 base mech all in push the easiest thing to hold.
I will upload two recent replays shortly, but I don't want you to look in detail at the terrans mechanics but rather at the delay that terran endures and compare the amount of anti air available around that time in your mech replays as well. You'd be surprised how much it helps.
Edit:
http://drop.sc/227151
http://drop.sc/227152
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Belial, after watching the replay I have to wonder, why the gas in the natural as the first gas? You're losing mining time just by transfering drones over to the natural, and then to the gas. Instead of just sending them after they deliver minerals straight into the gas. On top of having the ability to still collect gas during a hellion driveby into your natural, and having it unscouted for longer.
I drone pair the first 16 drones in the main, that's why I make the gas at the natural. You lose mining time either way, maynarding or rallying, but you have to do it one way or another to even out worker saturation between bases. I prefer to mineral pair the first 16, and keep that optimization and rally the rest, instead of maynarding. Maynarding also results in a bigger hit up front, which in the early game, is a lot. DRG also does not maynard, but instead rallies, as do I think every pro zerg I've watched so far, because you would rather have the money up front in the early game so you can pump out workers early, you know, the whole exponential growth, the more drones you can get earlier the better. I think maynarding should only be done if your expo is late, like in the case of pylon blocks. I suppose I should maynard to my third, but by then I have so much larva I think it's better to rally just a ton of drones to the third all at once.
Just preference. Terran can't tell if it's my 1st or 2nd gas anyways. I probably should have removed from gas after speed, but given that Terran was doing some sort of 1 base opening, I was more worried about possibly needing a baneling nest or gas in short notice. In the future though, I'll be sure to at least remove 2 drones from gas in such situations though. I don't really agree with just-get-lair with excess gas since you still need the minerals, but I'll take that as a note that I should remove from gas even against 1 base play, and just leave 1 drone in, in case I need gas asap for banes, etc.
I'll check out your reps about mass overseer vs mech. Thanks.
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On July 25 2012 02:24 Leetgam3r wrote:
'30min no rush' to and cry that terran has imba deathball
User was warned for this post
This guy actually has it. Instead of crying that "terran deathball > zerg deathball" you might want to actually analyze your own replay first.
I watched the replay against "lambris", here's my thoughts:
Going into the 15-minute mark you're at 174 supply with 2k minerals in the bank vs. terrans 126 supply. What happens at this point? Terran moves out to take his 3rd in the open with a measly 3 thor + 5 tank force with a whopping 4 hellions to complement it. Yes, and 3 banshees. His natural is open bare with 1 marine defending it.
You could easily put pressure and wear down his army, runby into his natural or main with mass ling / roach or whatever, but you seem content on giving him a free base while making another 5 drones, putting you at 90 drones in total.
At 19:00, he floats a CC to his 4th with no defence whatsoever, but you dont even attempt to deny it so he's fine.
For some reason, you decided to go heavy on infestors which really arent that great imo against mech, but whatever, you attack into his strongest positions (tank line with planetary fortresses) a couple of times before you ultimately max out on a force of BLs and corruptors which he has spent the last 10 minutes building up to defeat with a huge army of vikings and ravens. Tip: vikings and ravens are absolutely horrible against lings, roaches and ultras.
At 30:00 + the game is over.
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Where did I cry about anything? I simply said I have trouble beating this. Maybe we should just berate anyone who posts a [H] thread, stupid idiots, how dumb are we for not having experience at a high level against every type of strategy.
Tip: vikings and ravens are absolutely horrible against lings, roaches and ultras.
Right, but did you not see the mass tanks and PFs? Tip: ligsn, roaches, and ultras are bad against that many siege tanks with PFs, on a map like Shakuras.
So I rewatched it with your advice in mind. I think you have a good point - if Terran opened a 1 base all-in, especially if they follow it up with banshees, I should just max out on roach drops, fuck taking a third or infestation pit or hive or even upgrades, and just 200/200 roach max kill him. But if terran hadn't been so far behind like that, I don't think that would work, and I'm still left wondering how to beat a terran who plays like this.
But okay, onto this game - At 15:00, because I was teching up, I only had 13 roaches. What pressure could I have done? I went for the macro game, thinkign I'd have broodlords or ultras or whatever way before he did. And that's why I lose the game? Because I decided not to all-in him?
So maybe on maps like Shakuras, I should do that more often, because of the air deathball possibility (like the days of mass siege tanks into mass ghosts win)? I don't understand.
Thanks for your advice though, i think i understand how I could have won this game - if terran opened 1 base, fuck him up, close the game, ezpz. But for future reference, what do I do? I mean look where he's at at 17:00 - if he opened a very safe, simply, macro oriented opening, where he's at at 17:00 would be what he would have been at 15:00. At 15:00 I had only 13 roaches, but if I had gone for a roach max instead of teching up and taking a fourth, that still won't break that many siege tanks, and it'd just be a weak all-in that may or may not work and the game still ends up where it ended up this time.
I get that the guy was weak, but I specifically chose the macro route because of that. Like what many pros do, if you get ahead in the early game, just play the most standard game possible for the duration because you have such a huge lead, right? I guess against mech and turtle play, I won't do that anymore, but I don't think I was wrong in thinking to play a macro game. What, do you just autolose against mech or skyterran if the game goes past 15:00?
As for his fourth, it had a PF with SCVs. That's fine, yea, I could have killed it, but then my army is trapped in a corner, in a choke, against 15+ siege tanks and PFs and thors and 3 banshees...
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EPT
