EPT[G] PvT - Liquid`NonY's 1/1 Colossus Push - Page 4
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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monk
United States8477 Posts
Also, this is mostly wrong, especially since you don't say anything about what adaptations you have to make against this build. Colossi builds are very susceptible to all-ins with SCV pulls, way more than templar builds. Colossi builds off of a 2 gate robo opening and with double forge + blink are especially especially susceptible. I guess I worded that badly. In that post I was speaking about what NonY normally does with his 2 Gate Robo Expand, in which he does get a Twilight Council in time for +2 upgrades to be researched, doesn't go up to 8 Gateways, doesn't cut Probes and does take a third base. If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 17 2012 14:00 Sated wrote: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XZwpY.jpg) Here is the graph from the other game in the OP. The graphs are closer to one another, but you can still see that the graph is very much in my favour until the point where the opponent's three base production kicks in... Superior army value ≠ having more stuff. 2-bases Colossi all-ins always have more army value because they're mostly composed of Stalkers which cost 87.5 resources per supply compared with Marines and Marauders which cost respectively 50 and 62.5 resources per supply. Only Medivacs and Vikings are more expensive (per supply) than Colossi, Stalkers and Sentries, and they're only a minor part of Terran's supply at the time you're hitting. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
Anyway, can we cut this crap now? If people have suggestions for how I can improve the guide within the scope of a 2 Gate Robo opening then go ahead, but if people just want to trash on 2 Gate Robo builds then they should instead do something productive and write a guide for a 1 Gate FE Colossus all-in and leave this thread to die... Well the problem with your last statement Sated is that A LOT of people on the internet, no just on this forum, either: 1 - Don't know what the hell they're talking about, but posts anyway. 2 - Bash other's work to feel superior and then feel better about themselves. 3 - Can't read that it's a guide for a build that could help a lot of people even though It's not standard in very high play and that some of us do not feel the urge to become Top tier in the world but sometime just feel like trying something different to HAVE FUN (some people tend to forget that it's the initial goal). 4 - Because they didn't realise 3, they come here to bash a good input in the community for the sake of 1 or 2. That being said, thanks for the guide. It's quite a fun build to use from time to time. Keep up the good work ! EDIT: Added quote of last statement | ||
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Kfcnoob
United States296 Posts
I really dont see how this picture is intended to prove anything. You said that u were in diamond, which is a really inefficient league, so we really have no clue what this Terran was doing. U have to show economy stats and graph also. What if he went for 3cc? What if he was floating 1k minerals? Ur random pic w more army value than a random Terran does nothing to prove that this build is powerful vs 1 rax fe standard or even the nony build in comparison to the oft referenced squirtle colossus transition after 1gate nexus. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote: When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. I never claimed that this build has more eco than 1 gate FE. I also never claimed that it's better against 1/1/1 than 1 gate FE. I only claimed that it's a safe build that "puts you in a good position against it". You have a fast robo/obs to scout what your opponent is doing. Yeah, you could also do a 1 gate FE into immediate robo, but then it wouldn't be safe and you'd lose to a ton of other things.. It all comes down to this: yes, in the early game, other builds have stronger points than this one, but they also have bigger weaknesses. And this build provides one of the strongest mid game you could think of. It makes it a lot easier to play against the medivacs/drop timing. As for the eco delay, let's think about it: in a pretty standard safe 1 gate FE you drop your nexus at around 4'20 ( 26 food ). This build drops the nexus at 5'20. That's a minute later, so you have 3.5 probes less. However in a 1 gate FE you have to chrono your warp, while this build has a faster second gate, so you can afford to spend chronos into the nexus. This means that practically you're probably only 2-3 probes behind. Here are some examples of games I played this week end, around masters 800 pts. Yeah, that's not GM level, and their macro wasn't perfect. I don't care, when I play standard in PvT with other builds I generally can't seem to win. With this build I can, I can choose whether I want it to be all-in or macro, and that's all I care. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-275698.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-275683.jpg) | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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cwshang
Malaysia7 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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Voice of Reason
Korea (South)5 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:19 Sated wrote: 111 Marine/Tank/Banshee All-In: Your Observer will scout what they're up to before a Banshee can get to your base, so you should be perfectly safe from Banshee harassment. You'll usually have the following when you scout what is going on: 2 Gateways 2 Nexus (one still building) 1 Robotics Facility 1 Forge The first thing you should do after scouting their strategy is to get an additional Observer for a total of three. This gives you one for each mineral line and one to scout for the Terran leaving their base. The next thing you should do is cut Probes as soon as you have 16 on minerals in the main, 8-10 on minerals in the natural and 6 on gas in the main, which is enough to support the production you will need. You will normally reach this number when the natural Nexus completes (I usually have 10 Probes to transfer when my natural finishes). Next, start +1 Armour as you normally would with this build and also start continually producing Immortals from the Robotics Facility. Once +1 Armour and the first Immortal have started, build 3 additional Gateways for a total of 5. From the Gateways, you want to continually produce Zealot/Sentry from them as affordable, which usually means that you need to cut Gateway production temporarily whilst getting all your additional infrastructure in place. When your Observer sees them moving out, try to meet them in the middle of the field with your Zealots leading the charge, with Guardian Shield up, and with Immortals focusing down Tanks. If you did everything right then you should crush this push, it's not a very good push against openings that scout it way in advance. With such a late Nexus and investing into three Observers, you will die to a well-executed Destiny Cloud Fist build. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Voice of Reason
Korea (South)5 Posts
On December 18 2012 09:05 Sated wrote: You're wrong, but whatever. I don't feel the need to prove myself to you. Think whatever the fuck you want. I am wrong? And you don't feel the need to prove yourself to me? How convenient in light of the fact that you don't play nowhere near a level at which your Terran opponents execute something well enough to prove anything to anyone. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
We get it, Sated's stubborn as hell, some people don't like this opening. Just let it die already, the last posts have added absolutely nothing to the discussion. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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applepielon
United States78 Posts
On December 18 2012 01:37 Kfcnoob wrote: I really dont see how this picture is intended to prove anything. You said that u were in diamond, which is a really inefficient league, so we really have no clue what this Terran was doing. U have to show economy stats and graph also. What if he went for 3cc? What if he was floating 1k minerals? Ur random pic w more army value than a random Terran does nothing to prove that this build is powerful vs 1 rax fe standard or even the nony build in comparison to the oft referenced squirtle colossus transition after 1gate nexus. Why aren't people who post in guide threads without reading the guide temp banned like people who do so in help threads? Its really obvious this dude has not been paying attention to the OP. On topic: Gave it a try relative to the 1 gate FE, and it holds up just fine at my level, but I still don't feel it gives a huge advantage vs. a relatively 1 gate fe which goes like z/z/sentry/sentry. That seems to be more than enough to hold early aggression. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
There's so much bullshit Terran can do on one base it's not even funny, so I'll be honest and say that I don't know who invented which 111-based timing over another. I'll assume that the build you're talking about is some sort of Marine/Tank/xxxx build, and if that's the case then I've probably faced it at one time or another. No it's a fake 2 rax into stim cs siege marine medic tank push. It's at your ramp at 9-915 with 2 tanks, 1 otw, 1 medic 1 otw. ~25 marines, 1 marauder, and 8 scvs with stim/cs and siege. Just wondering if you're able to hold.. You'll have an immortal or two, but the low gate count... I think it'd be just too much. And yes, that voice of reason is an obvious troll and asshat. edit -- stupid... I swore I had a rep to show you what I meant. It's a build byun used. Looks like a 2 rax, which would mean you would cancel the OB and get an IMMO and cancel the forge, but it's so marine heavy it's almost like you WANT them to get immortals and gateway units. | ||
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Stalker![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JjnI7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GEsKa.jpg)
