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On December 15 2012 01:05 Complete wrote:
Slightly off topic: Does nony really still 2G robo expand in PvT on ladder a lot?
STParting 2 gate robo expo's when he wants to be safe...
2 gate robo expo requires the Protoss to be correspondingly aggressive while losing very few units, but it's by no means a no longer valid way to play. Just the vast majority of players can't micro and scout macro during an actual game so they lose on many fronts... and then say it's unreliable and much more inferior to faster expo builds than it really is.
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On December 15 2012 01:05 Complete wrote:
Slightly off topic: Does nony really still 2G robo expand in PvT on ladder a lot?
I think he mixes it with 1 gate FE. He also tries different timings a lot.
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You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening...
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min?
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On December 15 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening...
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339
Just as an example, this guide is still solid for most pvt scenarios, and kcdc's own twist safely relies on 2 gates (it's also fucking fun).
edit: a nine scout or very reliable scouting poke would be essential, but I think you can read all of those scenarios with enough time to react accordingly.
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On December 15 2012 09:38 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening...
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339Just as an example, this guide is still solid for most pvt scenarios, and kcdc's own twist safely relies on 2 gates (it's also fucking fun). edit: a nine scout or very reliable scouting poke would be essential, but I think you can read all of those scenarios with enough time to react accordingly.
No, that's 1 gate FE then 2nd gate. His FE is very early, as opposed to gate core gate robo OB nexus. Nexus is VERY late with this opening
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I had to do a double take a check the date. I swear there was an identical thread to this one years ago. And lol at attributing this to Nony.
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On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening...
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min? This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at. 2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening.
If I'm not mistaken, he went immortals...not collsai, forge +1/+1, and range... He did an immortal bust with sentries against one bunker.. Or maybe that was just the ohana game I saw.
I'm saying your opening. Your opening as follows puts you in a very bad spot, with no production until you start up the 3rd and 4th gateway, collsai, and range.
And "safe" doesn't always mean best. If someone is able to sniff this out, and makes a few bunkers, and places vikings in a good spot, you're all in and a bit in a rough patch. Your opening as is reads puts you incredibly behind against standard terran play, in my mind.
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United States8477 Posts
Trying to convince Sated that his builds are overly safe is like trying to ram your head into a wall over and over again until you bleed out of your ears. You're not going to succeed so I wouldn't bother. ^.~
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yeah it's overly safe...I would only do this if you are worried about what your opponent is doing (if they wall off)...
of course you probably can still 1g fe if they wall off but if they deny your scout, it's hard to see if they went triple cc, normal 1rax fe into 3rax starport, 1/1/1, etc
So with this build you are able to get a fast obs and scout their base
The advantage of this build is it's really good against any 1 base Terran tactic
The disadvantage is if Terran just normally expands, you will have to either completely outplay your opponent or you have to do damage like an immortal timing.
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On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening...
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min? This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at. 2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening.
The thing about safe openings is that they become really UNSAFE later on, when you are too far behind to keep up with a greedier opponent. If there was some way to be safe all game obviously everyone would do that build, the fact is that there are tradeoffs.
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On December 15 2012 13:45 monk. wrote:
Trying to convince Sated that his builds are overly safe is like trying to ram your head into a wall over and over again until you bleed out of your ears. You're not going to succeed so I wouldn't bother. ^.~
Noted. Good man, monk, good man.
Monk is right, by the way. You won't convince me that opening like this is bad... mostly because I know it works at a much higher level than the level I play at.
Opening is one thing. 2 gate robo is different than your 2 gate robo forge robosupport bay range collsai +1 armor, then 3/4 gate....
2 gate robo is overly defensive. I think you could achieve same push, if not faster, off 1 gate FE and be just as safe.
And 2 gate robo....vs 1-1-1, you should have no troubles in my mind. You have immortal tech, and ob for banshees. All you need is the get collsai out and defend that 1-1-1 and win.
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On December 16 2012 00:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote:On December 15 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening...
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min? This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at. 2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening. If I'm not mistaken, he went immortals...not collsai, forge +1/+1, and range... He did an immortal bust with sentries against one bunker.. Or maybe that was just the ohana game I saw. I'm saying your opening. Your opening as follows puts you in a very bad spot, with no production until you start up the 3rd and 4th gateway, collsai, and range. And "safe" doesn't always mean best. If someone is able to sniff this out, and makes a few bunkers, and places vikings in a good spot, you're all in and a bit in a rough patch. Your opening as is reads puts you incredibly behind against standard terran play, in my mind. Apologies. By "opening" I thought you meant the 2 Gate Robo part of the build because the stuff that happens after you expand isn't what I'd consider the "opening" any more. Once the Observer is out, you should be using that scouting information to adjust the build if you're going up against something that's going to be good against this build (like a 111, for instance). Hell, if you see a dedicated 2 Rax coming across the map with your scouting Probe then you could even build an Immortal before building the Observer. As for the safety thing, and like I already said, I've never had a situation using the "macro" version of this build where I've felt I've lost because I didn't have enough stuff (bar occasions where I've screwed the build up or gotten massively supply blocked). I usually lose because I have awful control. I really think people in this community put too much emphasis on economy, as important as economy is. EDIT: Monk is right, by the way. You won't convince me that opening like this is bad... mostly because I know it works at a much higher level than the level I play at.
Emphasis on economy... It goes hand in hand with production. You have low econ, and low production for a vast majority of the early game. Sure you have an early observer...good thing they can explode like baneli... oh. Low econ + low production into an influx of gates, 1/1 and collsai + range is a heavy, heavy all in.
If it works at a higher level, you'd see it more often. You don't because it's not as effective as a 1 gate FE or nexus first. I almost NEVER see it used...ever. Maybe in a bo5 or bo7 and the terran player is going cc first, or 1 rax FE 3rd CC and protoss knows he's greedy...then it's used for a bulldog bust with immortals.
Edit -- happy birthday too, sir!
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lol i agree with monk, iAmJeffReY it's obviously hopeless, don't bother trying ^^
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I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
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On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...?
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On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...?
Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway.
Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later.
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EPT
