[G] PvT - Liquid`NonY's 1/1 Colossus Push

On December 14 2012 17:47 Sated wrote:

Squirtle's build hits much earlier and so moves out against a Terran who probably won't have any Vikings. This obviously makes the Colossi really strong as they don't have a direct counter. In exchange for this earlier timing, you have a much smaller army size advantage, less reinforcement capability and no upgrades.

This build moves out with a much bigger army advantage, more reinforcement capability, 1/1 upgrades, and against a Terran who is likely to be spread out over 3 bases. In exchange, you're likely to be going up against a Terran who has Vikings ready to counter your Colossi, placing more emphasis on Stalker/Force Field micro than with Squirtle's build.

Which is better? I don't really think you can compare them that easily since they are designed to hit different timings and require different levels of control, but I guess you'd have to say that Squirtle's build is better since it's more widely used. I just don't personally like opening 1 Gate FE.


Stalker
Force Field

More seriously, you're underestimating the army value advantage this build accumulates over the course of the game...

On December 14 2012 17:03 Salivanth wrote:
What do you think about ST_Squirtle's 2-base Colossus all-in in comparison to this one? It hits a lot faster with the same 3 ranged Colossi, but without upgrades. (It also only goes up to 6 gates, since it hits faster and all.)

On December 14 2012 20:56 Surili wrote:



That is a PvP game...

On December 15 2012 01:05 Complete wrote:
Slightly off topic: Does nony really still 2G robo expand in PvT on ladder a lot?

On December 15 2012 01:05 Complete wrote:
Slightly off topic: Does nony really still 2G robo expand in PvT on ladder a lot?

On December 15 2012 09:38 robopork wrote:


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339

Just as an example, this guide is still solid for most pvt scenarios, and kcdc's own twist safely relies on 2 gates (it's also fucking fun).

edit: a nine scout or very reliable scouting poke would be essential, but I think you can read all of those scenarios with enough time to react accordingly.

On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote:

This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at.

2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening.

On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote:

This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at.

2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening.

On December 15 2012 13:45 monk. wrote:
Trying to convince Sated that his builds are overly safe is like trying to ram your head into a wall over and over again until you bleed out of your ears. You're not going to succeed so I wouldn't bother. ^.~

Monk is right, by the way. You won't convince me that opening like this is bad... mostly because I know it works at a much higher level than the level I play at.

On December 16 2012 00:57 Sated wrote:

Apologies. By "opening" I thought you meant the 2 Gate Robo part of the build because the stuff that happens after you expand isn't what I'd consider the "opening" any more. Once the Observer is out, you should be using that scouting information to adjust the build if you're going up against something that's going to be good against this build (like a 111, for instance). Hell, if you see a dedicated 2 Rax coming across the map with your scouting Probe then you could even build an Immortal before building the Observer.

As for the safety thing, and like I already said, I've never had a situation using the "macro" version of this build where I've felt I've lost because I didn't have enough stuff (bar occasions where I've screwed the build up or gotten massively supply blocked). I usually lose because I have awful control. I really think people in this community put too much emphasis on economy, as important as economy is.

EDIT:

Monk is right, by the way. You won't convince me that opening like this is bad... mostly because I know it works at a much higher level than the level I play at.

On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).

The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..

I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.

Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.

On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:

Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...?

On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:


Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway.

Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later.

On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:


When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one.

It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust.

It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder.

Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play.

On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote:

Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand.

I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage.

Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184

On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote:

Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand.

I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage.

Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184

On December 17 2012 06:00 Sated wrote:

I guess I worded that badly. In that post I was speaking about what NonY normally does with his 2 Gate Robo Expand, in which he does get a Twilight Council in time for +2 upgrades to be researched, doesn't go up to 8 Gateways, doesn't cut Probes and does take a third base. If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished.

This particular version of the build is supposed to be super all-in as it has no intention of taking a third base and doesn't have much chance of transitioning unless you do a lot of damage.

The two builds are very different. Sorry for the confusion, I'll re-word that post to make it obvious what I'm talking about.

On December 17 2012 12:09 Sated wrote:

I scout on 13 to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on 2 player maps. Terran players will occasionally go for proxy-based strategies and you usually need to change up your opening if someone like this is happening. On larger maps you only really need to know where your opponent is so that you know where to send the Observer, and for that reason NonY usually scouts after Cybernetics Core when doing this build on larger maps (I think...). In any case, this is already in the guide:

"I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations."

EDIT:

As for the rest of what you've said, I don't think "inefficient" means what you think it means. I know what you're trying to say, though, and all I can say is that I disagree. If you'd like to write up a guide on an alternative version of this type of build then go ahead

On December 17 2012 12:49 Sated wrote:

Here is a picture of an opponent always having more stuff than me:



Oh, wait...

+ Show Spoiler +

In what universe should I take you seriously if you're not even capable of reading the entire thread before making stupid comments..?

"I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations."

On December 17 2012 12:49 Sated wrote:

Here is a picture of an opponent always having more stuff than me:



Oh, wait...

+ Show Spoiler +

In what universe should I take you seriously if you're not even capable of reading the entire thread before making stupid comments..?

On December 15 2012 00:06 Sated wrote:



Meant to upload this image.

On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:
When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one.

It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust.

It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder.

On December 18 2012 04:19 Sated wrote:
111 Marine/Tank/Banshee All-In:

Your Observer will scout what they're up to before a Banshee can get to your base, so you should be perfectly safe from Banshee harassment. You'll usually have the following when you scout what is going on:

2 Gateways
2 Nexus (one still building)
1 Robotics Facility
1 Forge

The first thing you should do after scouting their strategy is to get an additional Observer for a total of three. This gives you one for each mineral line and one to scout for the Terran leaving their base. The next thing you should do is cut Probes as soon as you have 16 on minerals in the main, 8-10 on minerals in the natural and 6 on gas in the main, which is enough to support the production you will need. You will normally reach this number when the natural Nexus completes (I usually have 10 Probes to transfer when my natural finishes). Next, start +1 Armour as you normally would with this build and also start continually producing Immortals from the Robotics Facility. Once +1 Armour and the first Immortal have started, build 3 additional Gateways for a total of 5. From the Gateways, you want to continually produce Zealot/Sentry from them as affordable, which usually means that you need to cut Gateway production temporarily whilst getting all your additional infrastructure in place. When your Observer sees them moving out, try to meet them in the middle of the field with your Zealots leading the charge, with Guardian Shield up, and with Immortals focusing down Tanks. If you did everything right then you should crush this push, it's not a very good push against openings that scout it way in advance.

On December 18 2012 09:05 Sated wrote:

You're wrong, but whatever. I don't feel the need to prove myself to you. Think whatever the fuck you want.

On December 18 2012 01:37 Kfcnoob wrote:


I really dont see how this picture is intended to prove anything. You said that u were in diamond, which is a really inefficient league, so we really have no clue what this Terran was doing. U have to show economy stats and graph also. What if he went for 3cc? What if he was floating 1k minerals? Ur random pic w more army value than a random Terran does nothing to prove that this build is powerful vs 1 rax fe standard or even the nony build in comparison to the oft referenced squirtle colossus transition after 1gate nexus.

There's so much bullshit Terran can do on one base it's not even funny, so I'll be honest and say that I don't know who invented which 111-based timing over another. I'll assume that the build you're talking about is some sort of Marine/Tank/xxxx build, and if that's the case then I've probably faced it at one time or another.

On December 18 2012 09:33 Sated wrote:

If you followed this build as written for too long then you'd probably get rolled over, but if you were following the kind of 111 response I stated earlier then I think you should have enough units by the time such an attack hits. Your 5 Gateway production should've already kicked in by that point, but it'd be close. To be honest, it depends how well that build fakes a 2 Rax, because if it's faked well enough then I would've transitioned into this build and I'm not really sure who comes out on top in that situation. I don't think I would have enough production from only 3 Gateways to overpower the Terran if they get a good Siege position, but if I catch the opponent unsieged then I'd probably have a good shot.

Is it anything like this build: http://drop.sc/285316

My first engagement is actually horrible in this game because I don't lead with my Zealots and they get stuck behind everything else, only getting into the fight once pretty much everything else is dead. It's pretty pathetic, but I managed to scrape through despite my mistakes... It should've been one-sided in my favour if I'm being honest.

EDIT:

And Teoita is probably right, these sorts of question are more valid in the thread for a general 2 Gate Robo opening, they're not really relevant in a thread describing a specific all-in follow-up.

EDIT2:

Having read your description again, that build I've posted doesn't fit the bill. It hits a minute later than the build you've stated. If they'd moved out earlier they might've hit a similar timing, but they waited for more Tanks and that gave me time to get more Zealots... not that they were much use given how badly I controlled.

On December 17 2012 14:00 Sated wrote:

By the way, the response I gave was entirely deserved. I'm fairly tired of people repeating over and over that something "doesn't work" despite the fact that it's been shown to work at a very high level. If all I had were replays and VODs from the Bronze league then you might have a point, but that isn't the case. So quit making ridiculous statements, it only undermines any of your more meaningful points and basically makes you look silly...

..