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On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later.
lol It's not a minute later. And no, you won't be equal in econ. And no you won't be hitting 'right as the terran gets 1/1' as you said.
What time does your expo fall? 3:10 roughly for a 1 rax FE. You're at uhm....5:30? 6? Mines been done, and dropping mules before yours has even started. No, you aren't even on econ. lol
Let me see the replay, one of your "5-0" where you do this build, and have even econ with the terran.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later.
When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one.
It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust.
It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder.
Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play.
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On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play.
While I agree, it's important to note that Nony wins against GM players. Odds are it has more to do with him just being better overall, but still it's true.
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On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:
Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later.
No. And you don't expand one minut later but 2' to 2'20 later. 1 rax FE builds Command Center at 3'10 (before second Depot) or 3'30 (after second Depot) while 2gR expand builds Nexus at ~5'30. This is the income graph for 2gR expand (spent nearly all Chronoboosts on Probes):
![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/4615592gRexeincome.jpg)
This is the income graph for 1 rax FE before second Depot (ignore the SCV pull at 12'):
![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/1609511raxFEincomegraph.jpg)
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Italy12246 Posts
I was responding to Nyast's comment, not any of your posts. Saying "i'm 5-0 with this at x level, therefore it's good" is just a silly argument.
It's possible to get a forge just as fast against 1rax fe off 1gate FE. Against any other openings the fast Forge isn't useful anyway (in most cases).
Why would this build be ahead in army size anyway? You get the first round of gateway units at the same time as off 1gate FE, with one less gate, and you don't even get an immortal. From then on the builds are just standard 2-3gate/robo midgame builds that have very similar amount of production (actually, 1gate fe has more because you usually go into 3 gates).
By the time a Medivac timing hits, the bettern econ of 1gate FE will have easily kicked in anyway so the build with the faster nexus and better early game economy should actually have more stuff. Of course, that also depends on the migame followup.
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On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play. Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand. I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage. Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184
You're ahead in tech and army if the terran drops a third. If they scout....at all.... and go double starport with 2 base 5 rax pressure with heavy marauder count...you lose.
You won't be ahead in army, econ, or tech if the terran doesn't drop a 3rd, and scouts the no tech (no twilight, just collsai tech) and no third.
And how are you ahead in upgrades? You have no TC. You are all in off 2 base, with no TC and 1 forge. How are you ahead in army? If he sniffs 2 base all in, and prepares, terran is still ahead. How are you ahead in tech? It hits when terran is at full tech tree in TvP...and that's starport tech. I think this just relies on greedy terran play, and not scouting and reacting.
2 gate robo works... if you go into an immortal bust.
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On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play. Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand. I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage. Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184
Two gate Robo will certainly work, but one gate expand will simply work better.
Just like how FFE will work better generally compared to Nony's 2 gate FE (PvZ)
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Nice. I'm gonna do this over and over and over and maybe get to Masters soon.
What a great Nony quote! I love stomping all over people who try to be creative. Great work!
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On December 17 2012 06:00 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote:On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play. Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand. I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage. Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184 You're ahead in tech and army if the terran drops a third. If they scout....at all.... and go double starport with 2 base 5 rax pressure with heavy marauder count...you lose. You won't be ahead in army, econ, or tech if the terran doesn't drop a 3rd, and scouts the no tech (no twilight, just collsai tech) and no third. And how are you ahead in upgrades? You have no TC. You are all in off 2 base, with no TC and 1 forge. How are you ahead in army? If he sniffs 2 base all in, and prepares, terran is still ahead. How are you ahead in tech? It hits when terran is at full tech tree in TvP...and that's starport tech. I think this just relies on greedy terran play, and not scouting and reacting. 2 gate robo works... if you go into an immortal bust. I guess I worded that badly. In that post I was speaking about what NonY normally does with his 2 Gate Robo Expand, in which he does get a Twilight Council in time for +2 upgrades to be researched, doesn't go up to 8 Gateways, doesn't cut Probes and does take a third base. If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished. This particular version of the build is supposed to be super all-in as it has no intention of taking a third base and doesn't have much chance of transitioning unless you do a lot of damage. The two builds are very different. Sorry for the confusion, I'll re-word that post to make it obvious what I'm talking about.
Once there are no collsai...blink stalkers are just delaying their death with blink against bio with medivacs and stim. Marine marauder pack more of a punch than roaches, so blink against it just isn't nearly as effective. Don't get me wrong, it's still a bitch, but bio+ medics handles stalker/collsai well once you clear out the collsai.
It was on today on MKP vs MC. MC did a stalker/collsai timing. MKP clears the 3 collsai, and bio shreads stalkers. Albeit, no 1-1 for MC, so it was 1/1 vs 0/0.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 17 2012 06:00 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote:On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote:On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote:On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote:
I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ).
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny..
I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it.
Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see.
Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play. Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand. I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage. Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184 You're ahead in tech and army if the terran drops a third. If they scout....at all.... and go double starport with 2 base 5 rax pressure with heavy marauder count...you lose. You won't be ahead in army, econ, or tech if the terran doesn't drop a 3rd, and scouts the no tech (no twilight, just collsai tech) and no third. And how are you ahead in upgrades? You have no TC. You are all in off 2 base, with no TC and 1 forge. How are you ahead in army? If he sniffs 2 base all in, and prepares, terran is still ahead. How are you ahead in tech? It hits when terran is at full tech tree in TvP...and that's starport tech. I think this just relies on greedy terran play, and not scouting and reacting. 2 gate robo works... if you go into an immortal bust. If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished.
That's very very incorrect. In fact, the reason why Colossus openings are less popular at the pro level than Templar openings (except for 1colo with no range -> templar) is that they are very susceptible to 2port viking all-ins, often with scv's pulled.
I'm not saying that 2base colossus macro is bad per se, just that it's exploitable by the same build you consider weak against it (2port viking timing).
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I don't understand this opening. It's ultra-conservative with a 2-gate Robo, but it uses a 13 scout? Your mineral economy can't be that important...just 9 scout and then reactively go into this build if you see gas. If you don't see gas, you can just Nexus first instead. A 14-15 gate+gas+gas is fine if you 9 scout and see gas.
If you're going to be conservative and not gamble, you might as well just go all-out and 9 scout. Blind 2gate robo is really stupid. I could care less if it was Tyler doing this to NA GMs or if it was Seed, Rain, and Parting doing it in Code S GSL. An inefficient build is an inefficient build, no matter who is using it.
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On December 17 2012 12:09 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 11:48 ineversmile wrote:
I don't understand this opening. It's ultra-conservative with a 2-gate Robo, but it uses a 13 scout? Your mineral economy can't be that important...just 9 scout and then reactively go into this build if you see gas. If you don't see gas, you can just Nexus first instead. A 14-15 gate+gas+gas is fine if you 9 scout and see gas.
If you're going to be conservative and not gamble, you might as well just go all-out and 9 scout. Blind 2gate robo is really stupid. I could care less if it was Tyler doing this to NA GMs or if it was Seed, Rain, and Parting doing it in Code S GSL. An inefficient build is an inefficient build, no matter who is using it. I scout on 13 to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on 2 player maps. Terran players will occasionally go for proxy-based strategies and you usually need to change up your opening if someone like this is happening. On larger maps you only really need to know where your opponent is so that you know where to send the Observer, and for that reason NonY usually scouts after Cybernetics Core when doing this build on larger maps (I think...). In any case, this is already in the guide: "I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations."
Your opening is far from safe. Against standard 1rax FE with all the regular timings, you're pretty far behind and your opponent will always have more stuff than you. In what universe is that considered safe?
EDIT: As for the rest of what you've said, I don't think "inefficient" means what you think it means. I know what you're trying to say, though, and all I can say is that I disagree. If you'd like to write up a guide on an alternative version of this type of build then go ahead 
According to Google:
in·ef·fi·cient
/ˌiniˈfiSHənt/
Adjective
Not achieving maximum productivity; wasting or failing to make the best use of time or resources.
Synonyms
ineffective - incompetent - incapable - ineffectual
Maybe you know of a different definition of inefficient, but I think this one sums up the build pretty darn well. You're using a lot of time and resources to get robo tech out, but against 1rax FE (not even triple orbital) you're behind. Behind because you're wasting time and resources getting observers, so by the time your observer gets across the map, you can find out just how far behind you are. Playing scared =/= playing safe. I like 2gate Robo against gas, but if your opponent doesn't go gas...then what? You hope he plays poorly and doesn't react to your Robo opening? I know that games are still won with build order losses, often on the back of tech, but that doesn't necessarily mean an opening is optimized.
Perhaps I will go and write a guide. I know that I like a lot of elements of this build, I just think it could be improved. I play a really reactive style with a broad decision tree, so it will take me some time to do so. Games tend to wind up drastically different when my response to gasless is Nexus first, and my response to gas is 2gate robo (and potentially SG if I suspect factory/starport play). I certainly have a lot of notes already.
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On December 17 2012 12:49 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 12:45 ineversmile wrote:On December 17 2012 12:09 Sated wrote:On December 17 2012 11:48 ineversmile wrote:
I don't understand this opening. It's ultra-conservative with a 2-gate Robo, but it uses a 13 scout? Your mineral economy can't be that important...just 9 scout and then reactively go into this build if you see gas. If you don't see gas, you can just Nexus first instead. A 14-15 gate+gas+gas is fine if you 9 scout and see gas.
If you're going to be conservative and not gamble, you might as well just go all-out and 9 scout. Blind 2gate robo is really stupid. I could care less if it was Tyler doing this to NA GMs or if it was Seed, Rain, and Parting doing it in Code S GSL. An inefficient build is an inefficient build, no matter who is using it. I scout on 13 to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on 2 player maps. Terran players will occasionally go for proxy-based strategies and you usually need to change up your opening if someone like this is happening. On larger maps you only really need to know where your opponent is so that you know where to send the Observer, and for that reason NonY usually scouts after Cybernetics Core when doing this build on larger maps (I think...). In any case, this is already in the guide: "I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations." Your opening is far from safe. Against standard 1rax FE with all the regular timings, you're pretty far behind and your opponent will always have more stuff than you. In what universe is that considered safe? EDIT: As for the rest of what you've said, I don't think "inefficient" means what you think it means. I know what you're trying to say, though, and all I can say is that I disagree. If you'd like to write up a guide on an alternative version of this type of build then go ahead Here is a picture of an opponent always having more stuff than me: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GEsKa.jpg) Oh, wait... + Show Spoiler +In what universe should I take you seriously if you're not even capable of reading the entire thread before making stupid comments..?
That's just it.... that is one game...against a very bad terran player I bet. A terran should never have less army, or econ, than this build...ever. Unless it comes to a bulldog immortal bust, then that's just imba protoss.
Terran is always ahead in army and supply in TvP if played standard....so how, with this low production + late expo are you 'always ahead of a terran'...
"I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations."
Always early scout terran. Probes can be so annoying, and delay so much.
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On December 17 2012 12:49 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 12:45 ineversmile wrote:On December 17 2012 12:09 Sated wrote:On December 17 2012 11:48 ineversmile wrote:
I don't understand this opening. It's ultra-conservative with a 2-gate Robo, but it uses a 13 scout? Your mineral economy can't be that important...just 9 scout and then reactively go into this build if you see gas. If you don't see gas, you can just Nexus first instead. A 14-15 gate+gas+gas is fine if you 9 scout and see gas.
If you're going to be conservative and not gamble, you might as well just go all-out and 9 scout. Blind 2gate robo is really stupid. I could care less if it was Tyler doing this to NA GMs or if it was Seed, Rain, and Parting doing it in Code S GSL. An inefficient build is an inefficient build, no matter who is using it. I scout on 13 to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on 2 player maps. Terran players will occasionally go for proxy-based strategies and you usually need to change up your opening if someone like this is happening. On larger maps you only really need to know where your opponent is so that you know where to send the Observer, and for that reason NonY usually scouts after Cybernetics Core when doing this build on larger maps (I think...). In any case, this is already in the guide: "I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations." Your opening is far from safe. Against standard 1rax FE with all the regular timings, you're pretty far behind and your opponent will always have more stuff than you. In what universe is that considered safe? EDIT: As for the rest of what you've said, I don't think "inefficient" means what you think it means. I know what you're trying to say, though, and all I can say is that I disagree. If you'd like to write up a guide on an alternative version of this type of build then go ahead Here is a picture of an opponent always having more stuff than me: Oh, wait... + Show Spoiler +In what universe should I take you seriously if you're not even capable of reading the entire thread before making stupid comments..?
Wow, that was uncalled for. I read the thread and made some analytical comments, and that makes them stupid?
I looked around for which game corresponded to that graph. The one I'm guessing is this one:
http://drop.sc/284237
because it seems to be you against that opponent. I could be wrong, though, because you posted that information separately, which makes it difficult to discern.
In any case, I'm watching that game again to see what happened.
-Everything seems like a normal 1rax FE for the terran up through his scout and expansion timings.
-At about 3:40, he drops his expo and has enough money to continue SCV production. He doesn't continue yet, though, until 4:15. It's not like he's microing hard, either--he just simply doesn't build SCVs for 35 seconds, which is like killing 2 of his own SCVs at a crucial time. I watched this part 3 times to check that he wasn't doing something important or powering up/bunkering up with his money, but he actually just didn't build 2 workers.
-Then, there's another gap between workers from 4:31 to 4:42. This time, it's more embarassing because he has at least 50 minerals the entire time, and he builds four buildings right by his main OC. He's literally looking at his base and doesn't see that he's missing SCVs, with plenty of money to do so--even though he's down some minerals from missing 2 workers earlier and powering up in basically standard fashion.
-From 5:15 to 5:49, he does not build SCVs. The worker count is 27 to 18. He should be down only about 4 or 5 workers at this point, but he's down 9. At this point in time, you still have not started your expansion, and if he has been executing the most basic of macro (queuing up SCVs when he's not microing anything anywhere), he would catch up to your worker count within about a minute and a half or so, and then pass it and also have more production AND units than you.
-His second orbital isn't even starting to be an orbital until just before 6 minutes into the game, but it was done at about 5:20.
-He seriously misses some marine production, too. I'm not going to elaborate on this, because I think I made my point enough with the details of his failed SCV production.
So I think I figured out why you were ahead throughout this game, and I watched only the first 6 minutes of it.
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For the sake of this thread, I have done the work of looking at it in detail and looked into why it doesn't work. If you still think that I'm stupid, I'm going to have a chat with some mods about your attitude. But I thought it would be a good thing to show what's actually going on, for the sake of random bystanders who check out this thread and assume the information is legitimate. It's not fair to them.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.evilgeniuses.net/geniusesfalling/img/windrammer.gif)
