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On June 16 2012 18:20 fanvadmeck wrote:
According to day9 you should keep your colossi in the front to try snipe some infestors and once the broodlords advance you back off with your colossi and defend them with your stalkers or if you are in position blink in with the stalkers
I think this is a good idea in general, similar to what Belial88 said, you have to treat the infestors like Terran siege tanks where you try to force engagements before they get to your base in order to free up some of the energy. Just have to look out for some ninja fungal growths which could decimate your colossus. Good observer placement seems ideal to scout either burrowed infestors and to track the Zerg's army movement.
Belial88 said it perfectly and as a Protoss you have to utilize your multitasking skills and attack on different fronts using the mobile warp prism. If you can attack in more places than you opponent can defend, that means you essentially outplayed your opponent. Use those warp prism tactics while you tech up to carriers and create the ultimate Protoss death ball. Always add in some dark templar and you will be surprised at how many people you can catch off guard with it. Snipe tech, snipe hatches, keep the Zerg on his toes and you should be fine so long as your multitasking is up for it.
Belial88 if you could also post some of your replays where the Protoss reached the ultimate death ball, I would and I'm sure others would appreciate it.
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On June 16 2012 17:56 IHertz wrote:
In PvZ what is the best way to face the late game broodlord/infestor army when you do not yet have a mother ship and archon's?
I ask because often I have a mothership incoming and only 1 or 2 archons, or still teching towards these things when they start attacking my base with broodlords. If I try to go in and blink under them the zerg usually fungals my stalkers and they die to the roaches before I can kill the broodlords. So what is the best way to deal with broodlords before you get that mothership and archons for a toilet?
Also...when should I be looking to start teching towards mothership and high templar?
However, the main discussion I am looking for is other ways to face the Zerg Deathball, I am not looking for "get Mothership / Archons Faster."
So, you want to know how to win important battles with an inferior army? The answer is, you can't, unless your opponent makes some kind of huge blunder.
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Carrier/Void Ray/High Templar/Archon/Colossus/guardian shield
Mothership definitely helps but this army can still engage in the lategame without MS, and it just doesn't really lose.
It's better to scrap together whatever units you have and make a last stand than it is to "GG" because the playing field lacks a mothership.
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On June 16 2012 21:23 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Carrier/Void Ray/High Templar/Archon/Colossus/guardian shield
Mothership definitely helps but this army can still engage in the lategame without MS, and it just doesn't really lose.
A lot of responses in this thread are pretty stupid and lack creativity, I apologize for that. I think your hypothetical is viable, and even if it wasn't, it's still a good exercise for Protoss at the very least.
It's better to scrap together whatever units you have and make a last stand than it is to "GG" because the playing field lacks a mothership.
We can sit here all day and post ideal army compositions, but realistically, if he's unable to get out a mothership or more than1 or 2 archons, how could he possibly get all this, and more importantly, when would it ever be a good idea to invest in all that stuff instead of heading to a mothership? Motherships take a long time to build, sure but if he has enough money to build a maxed army with that composition, as well as the infrastructure to produce it, he should be able to have started a mothership some time before. Maybe you could chrono this stuff out after your mothership gets killed or something, but he specifically mentions that he is still teching to mothership, so that shouldn't be the case, not to mention, how often are you actually going to have the time to get all that out after losing a mothership? Typically, you only lose a mothership after an extremely important battle.
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I played three straight long macro thirty minute plus games against Z on ladder today and the only way you can take on the deathball head on with broodlords/infestors/etc is with a mothership, colossus, archons, stalkers and templars at a minimum! If you want to own then you want to have carriers and less stalkers.
The games where I couldn't get a mothership I was hopelessly run over. Broodlords aren't that bad. Broodlings, however, are the worst thing in the universe! There are just so many of them and the only way to combat them is with reliable splash of colossus.
You want to transition to begin the slow transition to mothership/archons as soon as you can defend your third base reliably (read, not getting muta'd or roach spammed or roach/infestor etc or ling/infestor'd) and have six geysers. Getting a fourth base and more geysers should be in high priority after that so you can add on MORE gas heavy archons/templar and stargate tech.
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On June 16 2012 21:38 JASONB0URNE wrote:
Broodlords aren't that bad. Broodlings, however, are the worst thing in the universe!
Zealots are fine, but those gay swords they have are the worst.
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Well to deal vs Broodlords infest, you simply use the counter: Voidray HT.
I scout when the t3 is launching, and at this moment, i do another cyber core, 2stargate, doing 1 air attaque.
Already have some ht.
When he comes out with his deathball, I try to split voidrays, and when he pop mass infested terran, i just simply Storm.
WHEN he did mass corrupt to counter voidrays, then just have ht and voidray hidden.
If he still come to snipe in YOUR base, then juste storm, these corruptors will stack and die.
Make Stalker when you're sure there's no Fungal.
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On June 16 2012 22:05 AnalyZ wrote:
counter
The world would be a much better place if everyone would stop using that word forever.
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On June 16 2012 21:05 From Afar wrote:
So, you want to know how to win important battles with an inferior army? The answer is, you can't, unless your opponent makes some kind of huge blunder.
What I am saying is there shouldn't only be one way to beat a type of army. But if Mothership Archon is the only way (as the thread is mostly pointing out) I think blizzard needs to do something about it (like tempest seems like it will be really good for this).
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Carriers are actually really effing good against zerg deathball. Not too many, maybe 4 max, forces them to make a lot of corruptors, and if they don't have enough then you should win the battle as infestors can't do much against them.
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On June 17 2012 05:19 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Carriers are actually really effing good against zerg deathball. Not too many, maybe 4 max, forces them to make a lot of corruptors, and if they don't have enough then you should win the battle as infestors can't do much against them.
Just saw this as well as the warp prism harrass in Dimage vs Puma Dreamhack and it was awesome :D
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but you cant forget that jyp was just miles ahead of dimaga and could do what ever he wanted. transitioning into carriers usually isnt that easy and thats why we basically never see them at the highest level of play.
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On June 17 2012 06:39 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
but you cant forget that jyp was just miles ahead of dimaga and could do what ever he wanted. transitioning into carriers usually isnt that easy and thats why we basically never see them at the highest level of play.
Yes but part of the reason he got miles ahead was warp prism drops (which someone else suggested) and I will add that to my play.
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from my experience with out mothership archons arent that great agaisnt that comp. I'd say collusus and stalkers would be the next best thing to fight broodlords and infestors. of course extra of the other units would be nice too.
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On June 16 2012 18:19 RodrigoX wrote:
ZvP lategame can be really really impossible for protoss. Its just a really terrible situation. Basically, if there are 12+ BL with 6-10 infestors plus any units left from the midgame, it basically is impossible to engage it with anything minus a momaship and have you come out ahead.
I mean, basically, dont engage it. Avoid that army like the plague until you get out a mothership with a vortex (until he NPs if ofc). I mean if the Zerg actually has a deathball, you are not going to win via good engagements without stupid vortex luck. You kind of have to destroy their economy, while maintaining your own, so when you do make a god awful trade, he can't rebuild, while you can.
As to the literal question, you need colossus to destroy the broodlings no matter what stage of the game, or else you are just going to get trounced. 3+ is suggested, and then basically all stalkers, with some high templar if you have the gas (you don't) for the life saving feedback. And you kind of have to play a game, of colossus vs broodlings/ground army, blink stalkers splitting but not too much, and blinking forward, but not too forward, whilst in range of the colossus. I mean its just a rough situation vs BLinfestor mothership or not.
This is correct, without mothership zvp late game zerg should win if the protoss doesn't make a mothership. I have seen hero beat it without a mothership vs stephano but that isn't goign to happen very much.
or I should ask why don't you get them sooner? I know you said don't tell you that, but that's the best way to do it. Now of days most protosses I play have a mothership pop out pretty much as soon as my broodlords are morphed or within 30 seconds of it.
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Here's a cool replay of late game. I used Templar Carrier Blink as my late game comp. I botched two major engagements before the Carriers came out (first one was at the opponent's 4th, miss-hotkey my Templar), and then the second one just lost a bunch of stuff to fungals.
Once the Carriers come out with Archon/Templar support there's not really anything for the opponent to do. Note I do get Mothership out, but I didn't really ever rely on the Mothership spells and used it mostly for cloak.
http://drop.sc/199034
Here's another example where I just roll over my opponent in the late game, I believe I had slight advantage from a Templar timing push where I got the Hive/Greater Spire:
http://drop.sc/199035
Here's my last one, this dude was pissed off and said something like "Brings deathball to a new fucking meaning":
http://drop.sc/181038
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On June 17 2012 07:18 blade55555 wrote:
This is correct, without mothership zvp late game zerg should win if the protoss doesn't make a mothership. I have seen hero beat it without a mothership vs stephano but that isn't goign to happen very much.
or I should ask why don't you get them sooner? I know you said don't tell you that, but that's the best way to do it. Now of days most protosses I play have a mothership pop out pretty much as soon as my broodlords are morphed or within 30 seconds of it.
I have been having a lot of trouble holding the 12 minute roach timing... I have since learned how to hold it but the good majority of my resources go towards it, once I feel like I have successfully stopped it and all the follow up pressures the zerg does I start teching towards mothership and archons, but I do not seem to get them in time for when his broodlords show up. I don't feel like I can get it much faster than I already am, and it seems like the zerg is fast teching to broodlords as soon as the 12 minute roach does not work.
It might be that my scouting is just bad and I could attack and win as he is fast teching to broodlords because of how greedy it is but I am not sure.
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Brood Lord army's weakness: slow as shit. Abuse it! Think of them like siege tanks in a TvT; once they're parked outside your base, if you don't have the crap to deal with them, you're boned. Don't let them get to your base when you don't have an army that can deal with them or else you will lose. Period. Counter if you have to.
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If you are looking for a different army comp other then mothership gateway deathball, I would suggest looking to pro replays (can't remeber where gonna have to search on tl) also a guide on this site for the sky tosss that turtles on 3 bases grabs voids/carriers which can rip apart the brood deathball.
Pretty fun happend in the up and down matches this season in gsl and in team league vs freaky (tho freaky only went infestors lol)
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On June 17 2012 07:34 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:18 blade55555 wrote:
This is correct, without mothership zvp late game zerg should win if the protoss doesn't make a mothership. I have seen hero beat it without a mothership vs stephano but that isn't goign to happen very much.
or I should ask why don't you get them sooner? I know you said don't tell you that, but that's the best way to do it. Now of days most protosses I play have a mothership pop out pretty much as soon as my broodlords are morphed or within 30 seconds of it. I have been having a lot of trouble holding the 12 minute roach timing... I have since learned how to hold it but the good majority of my resources go towards it, once I feel like I have successfully stopped it and all the follow up pressures the zerg does I start teching towards mothership and archons, but I do not seem to get them in time for when his broodlords show up. I don't feel like I can get it much faster than I already am, and it seems like the zerg is fast teching to broodlords as soon as the 12 minute roach does not work. It might be that my scouting is just bad and I could attack and win as he is fast teching to broodlords because of how greedy it is but I am not sure.
Yes, if you are holding properly (simple stalker/sentry/immortal 3 base like we see basically every pvz now), you can just go kill them as they won't have many infestors out and definitely not brood lords by 12-13 minutes. It's more common for zergs to just tech straight to brood lords without fully committing to any attacks, as it's the only way they can hold many 3 base timings.
I'm really curious if players will try to include mothership in earlier attacks rather than waiting until after BLs are out to build their stargate... It seems like you can definitely afford it earlier with the quicker 3 base styles and I think it may add a lot of utility.
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EPT
