|
In PvZ what is the best way to face the late game broodlord/infestor army when you do not yet have a mother ship and archon's?
I ask because often I have a mothership incoming and only 1 or 2 archons, or still teching towards these things when they start attacking my base with broodlords. If I try to go in and blink under them the zerg usually fungals my stalkers and they die to the roaches before I can kill the broodlords. So what is the best way to deal with broodlords before you get that mothership and archons for a toilet?
Also...when should I be looking to start teching towards mothership and high templar?
However, the main discussion I am looking for is other ways to face the Zerg Deathball, I am not looking for "get Mothership / Archons Faster."
|
I probably wouldn't. Though it's situational, and I don't have tons of experience late-game vs Z, I'd avoid a direct engagemnt and try to abuse the Zerg's immobility and snipe bases.
|
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
|
On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home?
|
You can still blink behind the main bases via the top/bottom corridor that is blocked by rocks. Or you can down vote the map
|
On June 16 2012 18:12 Ero-Sennin wrote:
You can still blink behind the main bases via the top/bottom corridor that is blocked by rocks. Or you can down vote the map
I really like the map, it's just those 5ish minutes when he might have broodlords and im still teching towards mothership and archons that kills me.
|
On June 16 2012 18:07 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home?
Have warp prisms and warp in Zealots at both top and bottom bases. When the Zerg moves out of position, you can blink into their pocket expos (if they have it) and take them out. Keep them on 4 bases and they'll be starved for gas as the game goes later and later and expand on your side while getting the proper units out.
Way back when, Huk did this at the Dreamhack he won and kept the Zerg on only 4 bases. Eventually he got enough gates to just power through whatever the Zerg had. I can't remember what the Zerg players name was though..
|
On June 16 2012 18:07 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home?
That's why you have to be prepared or it could be an instant loss if you do not have the correct unit comp to fight them in a straight army to army situation. So yea basically a base trade because if you cannot stall for time and you cannot avoid their army without sacrificing your base. On other maps though besides Shakuras it can still be good to stall. But in reality you really want to get that tech starting. Gotta scout it especially if they go like infestor ling style or have gotten alot of infestors.
|
you cant, thats the entire point of geting the mothership. to beat 8+ ammounts of broodlords with support, you need the mothership or a huge eco lead so you can throw like 80 stalkers at him and still have money left over. if you get caught by brood lords without a mothership or your mothership is still building, then you have to sac an expo or two and try to basetrade to stall until you get your mamaship out with vortex (if the expo he is attacking is where the mothership is building then you're pretty much dead).
mothership tech should start around the time you see the hive morphing you should have an observer in his base or near it to check for hive, get your hts the same time as your fleetbeacon if you didnt get them beforehand. a little trick you can do when you have alot of immortals (which suck really bad vs broods) and hive and spire are still morphing is to build a warp prism and immortal drop the greater spire. the zerg usually wont have units there in time to stop the immortals powering down the spire and you would have delayed his broodlords by a lot.
|
ZvP lategame can be really really impossible for protoss. Its just a really terrible situation. Basically, if there are 12+ BL with 6-10 infestors plus any units left from the midgame, it basically is impossible to engage it with anything minus a momaship and have you come out ahead.
I mean, basically, dont engage it. Avoid that army like the plague until you get out a mothership with a vortex (until he NPs if ofc). I mean if the Zerg actually has a deathball, you are not going to win via good engagements without stupid vortex luck. You kind of have to destroy their economy, while maintaining your own, so when you do make a god awful trade, he can't rebuild, while you can.
As to the literal question, you need colossus to destroy the broodlings no matter what stage of the game, or else you are just going to get trounced. 3+ is suggested, and then basically all stalkers, with some high templar if you have the gas (you don't) for the life saving feedback. And you kind of have to play a game, of colossus vs broodlings/ground army, blink stalkers splitting but not too much, and blinking forward, but not too forward, whilst in range of the colossus. I mean its just a rough situation vs BLinfestor mothership or not.
|
On June 16 2012 18:15 mR.bONG789 wrote:
you cant, thats the entire point of geting the mothership. to beat 8+ ammounts of broodlords with support, you need the mothership or a huge eco lead so you can throw like 80 stalkers at him and still have money left over. if you get caught by brood lords without a mothership or your mothership is still building, then you have to sac an expo or two and try to basetrade to stall until you get your mamaship out with vortex (if the expo he is attacking is where the mothership is building then you're pretty much dead).
mothership tech should start around the time you see the hive morphing you should have an observer in his base or near it to check for hive, get your hts the same time as your fleetbeacon if you didnt get them beforehand. a little trick you can do when you have alot of immortals (which suck really bad vs broods) and hive and spire are still morphing is to build a warp prism and immortal drop the greater spire. the zerg usually wont have units there in time to stop the immortals powering down the spire and you would have delayed his broodlords by a lot.
Will definitely try out this immortal drop technique as I usually have them to hold off the 12 min roach rush everyone is doing anyways.
Also...if mothership archons is the only way to stop it how did Protoss do it before the Archon Toilet was discovered, and why was there no outrage when Blizzard had planned to remove the mothership in HoTS (I know they have planned to put it back in now, but when they first announced it)
|
According to day9 you should keep your colossi in the front to try snipe some infestors and once the broodlords advance you back off with your colossi and defend them with your stalkers or if you are in position blink in with the stalkers
|
On June 16 2012 18:13 NguN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:07 IHertz wrote:On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home? Have warp prisms and warp in Zealots at both top and bottom bases. When the Zerg moves out of position, you can blink into their pocket expos (if they have it) and take them out. Keep them on 4 bases and they'll be starved for gas as the game goes later and later and expand on your side while getting the proper units out. Way back when, Huk did this at the Dreamhack he won and kept the Zerg on only 4 bases. Eventually he got enough gates to just power through whatever the Zerg had. I can't remember what the Zerg players name was though..
Yeah I don't know why I am still not using warpprisms to harrass, I need to get on that. I guess I just still love the clumped deathball so much.
|
On June 16 2012 18:20 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:15 mR.bONG789 wrote:
you cant, thats the entire point of geting the mothership. to beat 8+ ammounts of broodlords with support, you need the mothership or a huge eco lead so you can throw like 80 stalkers at him and still have money left over. if you get caught by brood lords without a mothership or your mothership is still building, then you have to sac an expo or two and try to basetrade to stall until you get your mamaship out with vortex (if the expo he is attacking is where the mothership is building then you're pretty much dead).
mothership tech should start around the time you see the hive morphing you should have an observer in his base or near it to check for hive, get your hts the same time as your fleetbeacon if you didnt get them beforehand. a little trick you can do when you have alot of immortals (which suck really bad vs broods) and hive and spire are still morphing is to build a warp prism and immortal drop the greater spire. the zerg usually wont have units there in time to stop the immortals powering down the spire and you would have delayed his broodlords by a lot. Will definitely try out this immortal drop technique as I usually have them to hold off the 12 min roach rush everyone is doing anyways. Also...if mothership archons is the only way to stop it how did Protoss do it before the Archon Toilet was discovered, and why was there no outrage when Blizzard had planned to remove the mothership in HoTS (I know they have planned to put it back in now, but when they first announced it)
Protoss just did 2 base timings lol. Either it worked and they won, or it failed and they tried to take a 3rd, by which mass Roach or Roach/Infestor would just win. Broodlords would definitely ensure a victory.
There were no builds where you'd take a fast 3rd and then play a macro game.
EDIT - Zergs would also use a lot more Roach/Hydra/Corrupter compositions... which a deathball would just destroy. Most Zergs used huge amounts of gas on Roach/Hydra, and so they'd be too slow to get Broodlord tech.
|
you need to be a bit more precise because it's important to know when the zerg attacks you with broodlords and what other units he has.
when zerg has broodlord/infestor/corrupter only there is no other way and even with mothership it just depends on whether or not the zerg controls his units well. when there are only few broodlords and infestors and a lot of lings/roaches as support a well upgraded stalker/colossus/sentry army does decently well against it.
as soon as you see the zerg go up to hive and your tech is a bit delayed you can try to play like ace/squirtle and use multiple warp prisms to keep the zerg busy while you get your mothership out.
|
On June 16 2012 18:26 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
you need to be a bit more precise because it's important to know when the zerg attacks you with broodlords and what other units he has.
when zerg has broodlord/infestor/corrupter only there is no other way and even with mothership it just depends on whether or not the zerg controls his units well. when there are only few broodlords and infestors and a lot of lings/roaches as support a well upgraded stalker/colossus/sentry army does decently well against it.
as soon as you see the zerg go up to hive and your tech is a bit delayed you can try to play like ace/squirtle and use multiple warp prisms to keep the zerg busy while you get your mothership out.
You know where I can see any replays or casts of ace or squirtle I would love to see there style as I have heard a lot about them but really haven't seen much of them.
|
You should be pushing with 3 base Toss with 2+ colossi right when zerg is going towards hive (infestation pit, hive, morphing greater spire and even broodlords). If zerg is good, you will have to back off against mass spine/infestor/corruptor or be stuck in base due to mutas or your 2+ colossi army is too small due to roach aggression, but unless you've broken through, you should be going toward mothership tech when zerg is going broodlord tech (ie when zerg sees toss on 3 base going towards colossi, he should be moving towards broodlords, similarly, toss should be going toward mothership if he can't bust a good zerg yet before the broodlords pop but you should definitely be able to do pressure and deny the 5th base, maybe even kill the fourth or lots of infestors and army and spines).
Ideally, you are pushing with 3 base 3+colossi and then killing lots of spines and infestors and then broodlords force you back and when zerg pushes you with broodlords, you should have mothership come out with energy for a vortex right when he arrives to attack your third and deny your fourth. Then, you use the threat of a vortex, which you can do favorably when being the defender as long as you force zerg to spam lots of IT's (think of infestors as zerg siege tanks - if you let terran run all the way up to your base without having to stop to siege over and over, you lose, similarly, if you let zerg run up all the way to your third without having to spam a ton of infested terrans and waste a bunch of energy, you lose - you cant let a bl/infestor army hit your base with full energy and be able to spam so many IT that a vortex doesnt work and a mothership cant get in range to vortex). Then, you push back the bl/infestor army with your 4+ archons/4+colossi/vortex army so you can secure your fourth and throw down stargates so you have 3 total and start pumping out carriers and phase out your gateway army in favor of 5+ colossi, archons, mothership, carrier, HT.
The game will be back and forth here, but you need to keep your colossi to make sure lots of infestors die, so he can't spam ITs to deny a good vortex. Then, using your initial 5+ carriers, you should be able to secure your 5th base.
Then get mass carrier/archon/mothership/HT, and you win. And warp prism speed with 30+ gateways and just ridiculous warp prism harass where you send 20 zealots to go focus the hive, greater spire, and new zerg expansions that even if he has 10 spines or even his army, he can't save them.
That's how ZvP lategame is played. If you dont have broodlords when toss has 3 base 3+ colossi, you lose. If you dont have mothership when zerg has bl/infestor, you lose. If zerg does not have 12+ broodlords and the rest infestors against mothership/archon/colossi, you lose, and if toss does not have carrier/ht/archon/mothership against pure bl/infestor with 3/3 and 3/3 air, you lose.
But god damn, 5+ base toss with a speed prism. You just cant win, toss throws away those minerals to kill all those bases and you just lose. You should be using speed prism harass to prevent the 5 base zerg from pushing you before you have enough carriers to win a straight up fight.
|
On June 16 2012 18:32 Belial88 wrote:
Ideally, you are pushing with 3 base 3+colossi and then killing lots of spines and infestors and then broodlords force you back and when zerg pushes you with broodlords, you should have mothership come out with energy for a vortex right when he arrives to attack your third and deny your fourth. Then, you use the threat of a vortex, which you can do favorably when being the defender as long as you force zerg to spam lots of IT's (think of infestors as zerg siege tanks - if you let terran run all the way up to your base without having to stop to siege over and over, you lose, similarly, if you let zerg run up all the way to your third without having to spam a ton of infested terrans and waste a bunch of energy, you lose - you cant let a bl/infestor army hit your base with full energy and be able to spam so many IT that a vortex doesnt work and a mothership cant get in range to vortex). Then, you push back the bl/infestor army with your 4+ archons/4+colossi/vortex army so you can secure your fourth and throw down stargates so you have 3 total and start pumping out carriers and phase out your gateway army in favor of 5+ colossi, archons, mothership, carrier, HT.
I have never gotten that late game to where you have no gateway army, usually I either get mothership archon and win or don't get it in time and lose.
|
^ yea it's pretty unforgiving. We already see blizzard realizes vortex makes the game stupid - it doesnt matter how bad or good the early or mid game went for either player, if both survive to 4 base z/3base p, overwhelming majority of games end with whether toss gets a vortex off at all (there's no such thing as splitting broodlords... just like you can't split HT against pre-nerf EMP - even if you only get 4 of 12 broodlords in a vortex, 8 bl will not be enough and you lose), or zerg NP's toss.
But you should never let zerg NP your mothership. Don't have the mothership on the same hotkey as your army, dont let your mothership fall too far behind your army, and dont rush in for vortex. Vortex should be used if infestors are out of position or defensively, really. A good zerg should be spamming IT in front of their broodlords to prevent a mothership from getting close enough to get a vortex off - a mass line of It will destroy a mothership when it's corrupted, maybe a few corruptors in there too, and chain FG'd at 10 range from the broodlords (vortex is 9 range, broodlords are 13 range...).
If you are losing a lot with your vortex, you are either being too aggressive with your mothership (which I win often against - you rush forward to vortex and I either NP bum rush you with my 12 infestors and just one of them has to survive your 5 colossi beams to get that vortex on YOUR army off) or spammming IT against a FG'd mothership that's corrupted and stuck.
use the mothership defensively so you can secure your fourth, then get carriers. carrier/archon/ht/mothership, is when you can be offensive when you get enough carriers to rape the infestors.
|
On June 16 2012 18:31 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:26 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
you need to be a bit more precise because it's important to know when the zerg attacks you with broodlords and what other units he has.
when zerg has broodlord/infestor/corrupter only there is no other way and even with mothership it just depends on whether or not the zerg controls his units well. when there are only few broodlords and infestors and a lot of lings/roaches as support a well upgraded stalker/colossus/sentry army does decently well against it.
as soon as you see the zerg go up to hive and your tech is a bit delayed you can try to play like ace/squirtle and use multiple warp prisms to keep the zerg busy while you get your mothership out. You know where I can see any replays or casts of ace or squirtle I would love to see there style as I have heard a lot about them but really haven't seen much of them.
not sure why it is free to watch, but this game basically shows the "new protoss style" of lategame pvz.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67541/?set=11&lang=
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
