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In PvZ what is the best way to face the late game broodlord/infestor army when you do not yet have a mother ship and archon's?
I ask because often I have a mothership incoming and only 1 or 2 archons, or still teching towards these things when they start attacking my base with broodlords. If I try to go in and blink under them the zerg usually fungals my stalkers and they die to the roaches before I can kill the broodlords. So what is the best way to deal with broodlords before you get that mothership and archons for a toilet?
Also...when should I be looking to start teching towards mothership and high templar?
However, the main discussion I am looking for is other ways to face the Zerg Deathball, I am not looking for "get Mothership / Archons Faster."
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I probably wouldn't. Though it's situational, and I don't have tons of experience late-game vs Z, I'd avoid a direct engagemnt and try to abuse the Zerg's immobility and snipe bases.
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The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
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On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home?
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You can still blink behind the main bases via the top/bottom corridor that is blocked by rocks. Or you can down vote the map
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On June 16 2012 18:12 Ero-Sennin wrote:
You can still blink behind the main bases via the top/bottom corridor that is blocked by rocks. Or you can down vote the map
I really like the map, it's just those 5ish minutes when he might have broodlords and im still teching towards mothership and archons that kills me.
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On June 16 2012 18:07 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home?
Have warp prisms and warp in Zealots at both top and bottom bases. When the Zerg moves out of position, you can blink into their pocket expos (if they have it) and take them out. Keep them on 4 bases and they'll be starved for gas as the game goes later and later and expand on your side while getting the proper units out.
Way back when, Huk did this at the Dreamhack he won and kept the Zerg on only 4 bases. Eventually he got enough gates to just power through whatever the Zerg had. I can't remember what the Zerg players name was though..
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On June 16 2012 18:07 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home?
That's why you have to be prepared or it could be an instant loss if you do not have the correct unit comp to fight them in a straight army to army situation. So yea basically a base trade because if you cannot stall for time and you cannot avoid their army without sacrificing your base. On other maps though besides Shakuras it can still be good to stall. But in reality you really want to get that tech starting. Gotta scout it especially if they go like infestor ling style or have gotten alot of infestors.
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you cant, thats the entire point of geting the mothership. to beat 8+ ammounts of broodlords with support, you need the mothership or a huge eco lead so you can throw like 80 stalkers at him and still have money left over. if you get caught by brood lords without a mothership or your mothership is still building, then you have to sac an expo or two and try to basetrade to stall until you get your mamaship out with vortex (if the expo he is attacking is where the mothership is building then you're pretty much dead).
mothership tech should start around the time you see the hive morphing you should have an observer in his base or near it to check for hive, get your hts the same time as your fleetbeacon if you didnt get them beforehand. a little trick you can do when you have alot of immortals (which suck really bad vs broods) and hive and spire are still morphing is to build a warp prism and immortal drop the greater spire. the zerg usually wont have units there in time to stop the immortals powering down the spire and you would have delayed his broodlords by a lot.
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ZvP lategame can be really really impossible for protoss. Its just a really terrible situation. Basically, if there are 12+ BL with 6-10 infestors plus any units left from the midgame, it basically is impossible to engage it with anything minus a momaship and have you come out ahead.
I mean, basically, dont engage it. Avoid that army like the plague until you get out a mothership with a vortex (until he NPs if ofc). I mean if the Zerg actually has a deathball, you are not going to win via good engagements without stupid vortex luck. You kind of have to destroy their economy, while maintaining your own, so when you do make a god awful trade, he can't rebuild, while you can.
As to the literal question, you need colossus to destroy the broodlings no matter what stage of the game, or else you are just going to get trounced. 3+ is suggested, and then basically all stalkers, with some high templar if you have the gas (you don't) for the life saving feedback. And you kind of have to play a game, of colossus vs broodlings/ground army, blink stalkers splitting but not too much, and blinking forward, but not too forward, whilst in range of the colossus. I mean its just a rough situation vs BLinfestor mothership or not.
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On June 16 2012 18:15 mR.bONG789 wrote:
you cant, thats the entire point of geting the mothership. to beat 8+ ammounts of broodlords with support, you need the mothership or a huge eco lead so you can throw like 80 stalkers at him and still have money left over. if you get caught by brood lords without a mothership or your mothership is still building, then you have to sac an expo or two and try to basetrade to stall until you get your mamaship out with vortex (if the expo he is attacking is where the mothership is building then you're pretty much dead).
mothership tech should start around the time you see the hive morphing you should have an observer in his base or near it to check for hive, get your hts the same time as your fleetbeacon if you didnt get them beforehand. a little trick you can do when you have alot of immortals (which suck really bad vs broods) and hive and spire are still morphing is to build a warp prism and immortal drop the greater spire. the zerg usually wont have units there in time to stop the immortals powering down the spire and you would have delayed his broodlords by a lot.
Will definitely try out this immortal drop technique as I usually have them to hold off the 12 min roach rush everyone is doing anyways.
Also...if mothership archons is the only way to stop it how did Protoss do it before the Archon Toilet was discovered, and why was there no outrage when Blizzard had planned to remove the mothership in HoTS (I know they have planned to put it back in now, but when they first announced it)
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According to day9 you should keep your colossi in the front to try snipe some infestors and once the broodlords advance you back off with your colossi and defend them with your stalkers or if you are in position blink in with the stalkers
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On June 16 2012 18:13 NguN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:07 IHertz wrote:On June 16 2012 18:00 Douillos wrote:
The only way to deal with the Deathball head on is those units. But you can go around it. try to gain time by using the mobility of blink stalkers to stall his attack and for ce him back home while your getting those units out.
Ok...what about on a map like Shakuras where it is really difficult to get past the zerg army because of how small the center choke is? Just go with blink stalkers to pick off your bases and leave everything else at home? Have warp prisms and warp in Zealots at both top and bottom bases. When the Zerg moves out of position, you can blink into their pocket expos (if they have it) and take them out. Keep them on 4 bases and they'll be starved for gas as the game goes later and later and expand on your side while getting the proper units out. Way back when, Huk did this at the Dreamhack he won and kept the Zerg on only 4 bases. Eventually he got enough gates to just power through whatever the Zerg had. I can't remember what the Zerg players name was though..
Yeah I don't know why I am still not using warpprisms to harrass, I need to get on that. I guess I just still love the clumped deathball so much.
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On June 16 2012 18:20 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:15 mR.bONG789 wrote:
you cant, thats the entire point of geting the mothership. to beat 8+ ammounts of broodlords with support, you need the mothership or a huge eco lead so you can throw like 80 stalkers at him and still have money left over. if you get caught by brood lords without a mothership or your mothership is still building, then you have to sac an expo or two and try to basetrade to stall until you get your mamaship out with vortex (if the expo he is attacking is where the mothership is building then you're pretty much dead).
mothership tech should start around the time you see the hive morphing you should have an observer in his base or near it to check for hive, get your hts the same time as your fleetbeacon if you didnt get them beforehand. a little trick you can do when you have alot of immortals (which suck really bad vs broods) and hive and spire are still morphing is to build a warp prism and immortal drop the greater spire. the zerg usually wont have units there in time to stop the immortals powering down the spire and you would have delayed his broodlords by a lot. Will definitely try out this immortal drop technique as I usually have them to hold off the 12 min roach rush everyone is doing anyways. Also...if mothership archons is the only way to stop it how did Protoss do it before the Archon Toilet was discovered, and why was there no outrage when Blizzard had planned to remove the mothership in HoTS (I know they have planned to put it back in now, but when they first announced it)
Protoss just did 2 base timings lol. Either it worked and they won, or it failed and they tried to take a 3rd, by which mass Roach or Roach/Infestor would just win. Broodlords would definitely ensure a victory.
There were no builds where you'd take a fast 3rd and then play a macro game.
EDIT - Zergs would also use a lot more Roach/Hydra/Corrupter compositions... which a deathball would just destroy. Most Zergs used huge amounts of gas on Roach/Hydra, and so they'd be too slow to get Broodlord tech.
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you need to be a bit more precise because it's important to know when the zerg attacks you with broodlords and what other units he has.
when zerg has broodlord/infestor/corrupter only there is no other way and even with mothership it just depends on whether or not the zerg controls his units well. when there are only few broodlords and infestors and a lot of lings/roaches as support a well upgraded stalker/colossus/sentry army does decently well against it.
as soon as you see the zerg go up to hive and your tech is a bit delayed you can try to play like ace/squirtle and use multiple warp prisms to keep the zerg busy while you get your mothership out.
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On June 16 2012 18:26 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
you need to be a bit more precise because it's important to know when the zerg attacks you with broodlords and what other units he has.
when zerg has broodlord/infestor/corrupter only there is no other way and even with mothership it just depends on whether or not the zerg controls his units well. when there are only few broodlords and infestors and a lot of lings/roaches as support a well upgraded stalker/colossus/sentry army does decently well against it.
as soon as you see the zerg go up to hive and your tech is a bit delayed you can try to play like ace/squirtle and use multiple warp prisms to keep the zerg busy while you get your mothership out.
You know where I can see any replays or casts of ace or squirtle I would love to see there style as I have heard a lot about them but really haven't seen much of them.
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You should be pushing with 3 base Toss with 2+ colossi right when zerg is going towards hive (infestation pit, hive, morphing greater spire and even broodlords). If zerg is good, you will have to back off against mass spine/infestor/corruptor or be stuck in base due to mutas or your 2+ colossi army is too small due to roach aggression, but unless you've broken through, you should be going toward mothership tech when zerg is going broodlord tech (ie when zerg sees toss on 3 base going towards colossi, he should be moving towards broodlords, similarly, toss should be going toward mothership if he can't bust a good zerg yet before the broodlords pop but you should definitely be able to do pressure and deny the 5th base, maybe even kill the fourth or lots of infestors and army and spines).
Ideally, you are pushing with 3 base 3+colossi and then killing lots of spines and infestors and then broodlords force you back and when zerg pushes you with broodlords, you should have mothership come out with energy for a vortex right when he arrives to attack your third and deny your fourth. Then, you use the threat of a vortex, which you can do favorably when being the defender as long as you force zerg to spam lots of IT's (think of infestors as zerg siege tanks - if you let terran run all the way up to your base without having to stop to siege over and over, you lose, similarly, if you let zerg run up all the way to your third without having to spam a ton of infested terrans and waste a bunch of energy, you lose - you cant let a bl/infestor army hit your base with full energy and be able to spam so many IT that a vortex doesnt work and a mothership cant get in range to vortex). Then, you push back the bl/infestor army with your 4+ archons/4+colossi/vortex army so you can secure your fourth and throw down stargates so you have 3 total and start pumping out carriers and phase out your gateway army in favor of 5+ colossi, archons, mothership, carrier, HT.
The game will be back and forth here, but you need to keep your colossi to make sure lots of infestors die, so he can't spam ITs to deny a good vortex. Then, using your initial 5+ carriers, you should be able to secure your 5th base.
Then get mass carrier/archon/mothership/HT, and you win. And warp prism speed with 30+ gateways and just ridiculous warp prism harass where you send 20 zealots to go focus the hive, greater spire, and new zerg expansions that even if he has 10 spines or even his army, he can't save them.
That's how ZvP lategame is played. If you dont have broodlords when toss has 3 base 3+ colossi, you lose. If you dont have mothership when zerg has bl/infestor, you lose. If zerg does not have 12+ broodlords and the rest infestors against mothership/archon/colossi, you lose, and if toss does not have carrier/ht/archon/mothership against pure bl/infestor with 3/3 and 3/3 air, you lose.
But god damn, 5+ base toss with a speed prism. You just cant win, toss throws away those minerals to kill all those bases and you just lose. You should be using speed prism harass to prevent the 5 base zerg from pushing you before you have enough carriers to win a straight up fight.
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On June 16 2012 18:32 Belial88 wrote:
Ideally, you are pushing with 3 base 3+colossi and then killing lots of spines and infestors and then broodlords force you back and when zerg pushes you with broodlords, you should have mothership come out with energy for a vortex right when he arrives to attack your third and deny your fourth. Then, you use the threat of a vortex, which you can do favorably when being the defender as long as you force zerg to spam lots of IT's (think of infestors as zerg siege tanks - if you let terran run all the way up to your base without having to stop to siege over and over, you lose, similarly, if you let zerg run up all the way to your third without having to spam a ton of infested terrans and waste a bunch of energy, you lose - you cant let a bl/infestor army hit your base with full energy and be able to spam so many IT that a vortex doesnt work and a mothership cant get in range to vortex). Then, you push back the bl/infestor army with your 4+ archons/4+colossi/vortex army so you can secure your fourth and throw down stargates so you have 3 total and start pumping out carriers and phase out your gateway army in favor of 5+ colossi, archons, mothership, carrier, HT.
I have never gotten that late game to where you have no gateway army, usually I either get mothership archon and win or don't get it in time and lose.
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^ yea it's pretty unforgiving. We already see blizzard realizes vortex makes the game stupid - it doesnt matter how bad or good the early or mid game went for either player, if both survive to 4 base z/3base p, overwhelming majority of games end with whether toss gets a vortex off at all (there's no such thing as splitting broodlords... just like you can't split HT against pre-nerf EMP - even if you only get 4 of 12 broodlords in a vortex, 8 bl will not be enough and you lose), or zerg NP's toss.
But you should never let zerg NP your mothership. Don't have the mothership on the same hotkey as your army, dont let your mothership fall too far behind your army, and dont rush in for vortex. Vortex should be used if infestors are out of position or defensively, really. A good zerg should be spamming IT in front of their broodlords to prevent a mothership from getting close enough to get a vortex off - a mass line of It will destroy a mothership when it's corrupted, maybe a few corruptors in there too, and chain FG'd at 10 range from the broodlords (vortex is 9 range, broodlords are 13 range...).
If you are losing a lot with your vortex, you are either being too aggressive with your mothership (which I win often against - you rush forward to vortex and I either NP bum rush you with my 12 infestors and just one of them has to survive your 5 colossi beams to get that vortex on YOUR army off) or spammming IT against a FG'd mothership that's corrupted and stuck.
use the mothership defensively so you can secure your fourth, then get carriers. carrier/archon/ht/mothership, is when you can be offensive when you get enough carriers to rape the infestors.
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On June 16 2012 18:31 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:26 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
you need to be a bit more precise because it's important to know when the zerg attacks you with broodlords and what other units he has.
when zerg has broodlord/infestor/corrupter only there is no other way and even with mothership it just depends on whether or not the zerg controls his units well. when there are only few broodlords and infestors and a lot of lings/roaches as support a well upgraded stalker/colossus/sentry army does decently well against it.
as soon as you see the zerg go up to hive and your tech is a bit delayed you can try to play like ace/squirtle and use multiple warp prisms to keep the zerg busy while you get your mothership out. You know where I can see any replays or casts of ace or squirtle I would love to see there style as I have heard a lot about them but really haven't seen much of them.
not sure why it is free to watch, but this game basically shows the "new protoss style" of lategame pvz.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67541/?set=11&lang=
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On June 16 2012 18:20 fanvadmeck wrote:
According to day9 you should keep your colossi in the front to try snipe some infestors and once the broodlords advance you back off with your colossi and defend them with your stalkers or if you are in position blink in with the stalkers
I think this is a good idea in general, similar to what Belial88 said, you have to treat the infestors like Terran siege tanks where you try to force engagements before they get to your base in order to free up some of the energy. Just have to look out for some ninja fungal growths which could decimate your colossus. Good observer placement seems ideal to scout either burrowed infestors and to track the Zerg's army movement.
Belial88 said it perfectly and as a Protoss you have to utilize your multitasking skills and attack on different fronts using the mobile warp prism. If you can attack in more places than you opponent can defend, that means you essentially outplayed your opponent. Use those warp prism tactics while you tech up to carriers and create the ultimate Protoss death ball. Always add in some dark templar and you will be surprised at how many people you can catch off guard with it. Snipe tech, snipe hatches, keep the Zerg on his toes and you should be fine so long as your multitasking is up for it.
Belial88 if you could also post some of your replays where the Protoss reached the ultimate death ball, I would and I'm sure others would appreciate it.
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On June 16 2012 17:56 IHertz wrote:
In PvZ what is the best way to face the late game broodlord/infestor army when you do not yet have a mother ship and archon's?
I ask because often I have a mothership incoming and only 1 or 2 archons, or still teching towards these things when they start attacking my base with broodlords. If I try to go in and blink under them the zerg usually fungals my stalkers and they die to the roaches before I can kill the broodlords. So what is the best way to deal with broodlords before you get that mothership and archons for a toilet?
Also...when should I be looking to start teching towards mothership and high templar?
However, the main discussion I am looking for is other ways to face the Zerg Deathball, I am not looking for "get Mothership / Archons Faster."
So, you want to know how to win important battles with an inferior army? The answer is, you can't, unless your opponent makes some kind of huge blunder.
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Carrier/Void Ray/High Templar/Archon/Colossus/guardian shield
Mothership definitely helps but this army can still engage in the lategame without MS, and it just doesn't really lose.
It's better to scrap together whatever units you have and make a last stand than it is to "GG" because the playing field lacks a mothership.
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On June 16 2012 21:23 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Carrier/Void Ray/High Templar/Archon/Colossus/guardian shield
Mothership definitely helps but this army can still engage in the lategame without MS, and it just doesn't really lose.
A lot of responses in this thread are pretty stupid and lack creativity, I apologize for that. I think your hypothetical is viable, and even if it wasn't, it's still a good exercise for Protoss at the very least.
It's better to scrap together whatever units you have and make a last stand than it is to "GG" because the playing field lacks a mothership.
We can sit here all day and post ideal army compositions, but realistically, if he's unable to get out a mothership or more than1 or 2 archons, how could he possibly get all this, and more importantly, when would it ever be a good idea to invest in all that stuff instead of heading to a mothership? Motherships take a long time to build, sure but if he has enough money to build a maxed army with that composition, as well as the infrastructure to produce it, he should be able to have started a mothership some time before. Maybe you could chrono this stuff out after your mothership gets killed or something, but he specifically mentions that he is still teching to mothership, so that shouldn't be the case, not to mention, how often are you actually going to have the time to get all that out after losing a mothership? Typically, you only lose a mothership after an extremely important battle.
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I played three straight long macro thirty minute plus games against Z on ladder today and the only way you can take on the deathball head on with broodlords/infestors/etc is with a mothership, colossus, archons, stalkers and templars at a minimum! If you want to own then you want to have carriers and less stalkers.
The games where I couldn't get a mothership I was hopelessly run over. Broodlords aren't that bad. Broodlings, however, are the worst thing in the universe! There are just so many of them and the only way to combat them is with reliable splash of colossus.
You want to transition to begin the slow transition to mothership/archons as soon as you can defend your third base reliably (read, not getting muta'd or roach spammed or roach/infestor etc or ling/infestor'd) and have six geysers. Getting a fourth base and more geysers should be in high priority after that so you can add on MORE gas heavy archons/templar and stargate tech.
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On June 16 2012 21:38 JASONB0URNE wrote:
Broodlords aren't that bad. Broodlings, however, are the worst thing in the universe!
Zealots are fine, but those gay swords they have are the worst.
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Well to deal vs Broodlords infest, you simply use the counter: Voidray HT.
I scout when the t3 is launching, and at this moment, i do another cyber core, 2stargate, doing 1 air attaque.
Already have some ht.
When he comes out with his deathball, I try to split voidrays, and when he pop mass infested terran, i just simply Storm.
WHEN he did mass corrupt to counter voidrays, then just have ht and voidray hidden.
If he still come to snipe in YOUR base, then juste storm, these corruptors will stack and die.
Make Stalker when you're sure there's no Fungal.
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On June 16 2012 22:05 AnalyZ wrote:
counter
The world would be a much better place if everyone would stop using that word forever.
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On June 16 2012 21:05 From Afar wrote:
So, you want to know how to win important battles with an inferior army? The answer is, you can't, unless your opponent makes some kind of huge blunder.
What I am saying is there shouldn't only be one way to beat a type of army. But if Mothership Archon is the only way (as the thread is mostly pointing out) I think blizzard needs to do something about it (like tempest seems like it will be really good for this).
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Carriers are actually really effing good against zerg deathball. Not too many, maybe 4 max, forces them to make a lot of corruptors, and if they don't have enough then you should win the battle as infestors can't do much against them.
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On June 17 2012 05:19 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Carriers are actually really effing good against zerg deathball. Not too many, maybe 4 max, forces them to make a lot of corruptors, and if they don't have enough then you should win the battle as infestors can't do much against them.
Just saw this as well as the warp prism harrass in Dimage vs Puma Dreamhack and it was awesome :D
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but you cant forget that jyp was just miles ahead of dimaga and could do what ever he wanted. transitioning into carriers usually isnt that easy and thats why we basically never see them at the highest level of play.
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On June 17 2012 06:39 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
but you cant forget that jyp was just miles ahead of dimaga and could do what ever he wanted. transitioning into carriers usually isnt that easy and thats why we basically never see them at the highest level of play.
Yes but part of the reason he got miles ahead was warp prism drops (which someone else suggested) and I will add that to my play.
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from my experience with out mothership archons arent that great agaisnt that comp. I'd say collusus and stalkers would be the next best thing to fight broodlords and infestors. of course extra of the other units would be nice too.
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On June 16 2012 18:19 RodrigoX wrote:
ZvP lategame can be really really impossible for protoss. Its just a really terrible situation. Basically, if there are 12+ BL with 6-10 infestors plus any units left from the midgame, it basically is impossible to engage it with anything minus a momaship and have you come out ahead.
I mean, basically, dont engage it. Avoid that army like the plague until you get out a mothership with a vortex (until he NPs if ofc). I mean if the Zerg actually has a deathball, you are not going to win via good engagements without stupid vortex luck. You kind of have to destroy their economy, while maintaining your own, so when you do make a god awful trade, he can't rebuild, while you can.
As to the literal question, you need colossus to destroy the broodlings no matter what stage of the game, or else you are just going to get trounced. 3+ is suggested, and then basically all stalkers, with some high templar if you have the gas (you don't) for the life saving feedback. And you kind of have to play a game, of colossus vs broodlings/ground army, blink stalkers splitting but not too much, and blinking forward, but not too forward, whilst in range of the colossus. I mean its just a rough situation vs BLinfestor mothership or not.
This is correct, without mothership zvp late game zerg should win if the protoss doesn't make a mothership. I have seen hero beat it without a mothership vs stephano but that isn't goign to happen very much.
or I should ask why don't you get them sooner? I know you said don't tell you that, but that's the best way to do it. Now of days most protosses I play have a mothership pop out pretty much as soon as my broodlords are morphed or within 30 seconds of it.
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Here's a cool replay of late game. I used Templar Carrier Blink as my late game comp. I botched two major engagements before the Carriers came out (first one was at the opponent's 4th, miss-hotkey my Templar), and then the second one just lost a bunch of stuff to fungals.
Once the Carriers come out with Archon/Templar support there's not really anything for the opponent to do. Note I do get Mothership out, but I didn't really ever rely on the Mothership spells and used it mostly for cloak.
http://drop.sc/199034
Here's another example where I just roll over my opponent in the late game, I believe I had slight advantage from a Templar timing push where I got the Hive/Greater Spire:
http://drop.sc/199035
Here's my last one, this dude was pissed off and said something like "Brings deathball to a new fucking meaning":
http://drop.sc/181038
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On June 17 2012 07:18 blade55555 wrote:
This is correct, without mothership zvp late game zerg should win if the protoss doesn't make a mothership. I have seen hero beat it without a mothership vs stephano but that isn't goign to happen very much.
or I should ask why don't you get them sooner? I know you said don't tell you that, but that's the best way to do it. Now of days most protosses I play have a mothership pop out pretty much as soon as my broodlords are morphed or within 30 seconds of it.
I have been having a lot of trouble holding the 12 minute roach timing... I have since learned how to hold it but the good majority of my resources go towards it, once I feel like I have successfully stopped it and all the follow up pressures the zerg does I start teching towards mothership and archons, but I do not seem to get them in time for when his broodlords show up. I don't feel like I can get it much faster than I already am, and it seems like the zerg is fast teching to broodlords as soon as the 12 minute roach does not work.
It might be that my scouting is just bad and I could attack and win as he is fast teching to broodlords because of how greedy it is but I am not sure.
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Brood Lord army's weakness: slow as shit. Abuse it! Think of them like siege tanks in a TvT; once they're parked outside your base, if you don't have the crap to deal with them, you're boned. Don't let them get to your base when you don't have an army that can deal with them or else you will lose. Period. Counter if you have to.
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If you are looking for a different army comp other then mothership gateway deathball, I would suggest looking to pro replays (can't remeber where gonna have to search on tl) also a guide on this site for the sky tosss that turtles on 3 bases grabs voids/carriers which can rip apart the brood deathball.
Pretty fun happend in the up and down matches this season in gsl and in team league vs freaky (tho freaky only went infestors lol)
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On June 17 2012 07:34 IHertz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:18 blade55555 wrote:
This is correct, without mothership zvp late game zerg should win if the protoss doesn't make a mothership. I have seen hero beat it without a mothership vs stephano but that isn't goign to happen very much.
or I should ask why don't you get them sooner? I know you said don't tell you that, but that's the best way to do it. Now of days most protosses I play have a mothership pop out pretty much as soon as my broodlords are morphed or within 30 seconds of it. I have been having a lot of trouble holding the 12 minute roach timing... I have since learned how to hold it but the good majority of my resources go towards it, once I feel like I have successfully stopped it and all the follow up pressures the zerg does I start teching towards mothership and archons, but I do not seem to get them in time for when his broodlords show up. I don't feel like I can get it much faster than I already am, and it seems like the zerg is fast teching to broodlords as soon as the 12 minute roach does not work. It might be that my scouting is just bad and I could attack and win as he is fast teching to broodlords because of how greedy it is but I am not sure.
Yes, if you are holding properly (simple stalker/sentry/immortal 3 base like we see basically every pvz now), you can just go kill them as they won't have many infestors out and definitely not brood lords by 12-13 minutes. It's more common for zergs to just tech straight to brood lords without fully committing to any attacks, as it's the only way they can hold many 3 base timings.
I'm really curious if players will try to include mothership in earlier attacks rather than waiting until after BLs are out to build their stargate... It seems like you can definitely afford it earlier with the quicker 3 base styles and I think it may add a lot of utility.
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Reason you don't see early mothership is zerg can damage you ecom mid game/early game and put a dent in your production.
Mothership is very expensive, need to make sure your 3 bases are fully sataurated and about to take a forth. If the zerg just sits back and does not do anything (which is rare) then u can prob make a early mothership.
Nananawiw did it off 1 base few times tho he rushed and was super risky
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On June 17 2012 12:52 silentdecay01 wrote:
Reason you don't see early mothership is zerg can damage you ecom mid game/early game and put a dent in your production.
Mothership is very expensive, need to make sure your 3 bases are fully sataurated and about to take a forth. If the zerg just sits back and does not do anything (which is rare) then u can prob make a early mothership.
Nananawiw did it off 1 base few times tho he rushed and was super risky
Like I said, stalker/sentry/immortal easily defends 3 bases on most maps in the pool, so you don't lose anything at all and you get a free win if they commit to attacks. The alternative for zerg is either muta which requires its own responses or an 11 minute hive rush to BL that is very common now. In that case there's no threat, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Obviously you can do it, I'm just wondering if it would provide enough utility to 3 base timings to be worth going for.
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The best way to deal with a zerg end game army is with what I and some others call sky toss. Carriers and void rays (mothership is obviously helpful) kill any endgame zerg army except for pretty much only infestors. This, however is even harder to get to than mothership archon and is therefore probably not helping ;-).
Truth is without a really perfect composition, it is nearly impossible to deal with the broodlord infestor maxed out zerg army. Having 2-3 colossus can help in defense because they keep some of the fungal growths at bay and kill the broolings hela-quick. This will serve as only a temporary solution and you need to get that mothership out ASAP. Best way to keep a zerg at bay is by keeping him busy. Send 7-8 zealots to a new expansion. Send a warprism to his main and warp some DTs and zealots. This will keep his mind busy and he will either not attack or will make a mistake with his army. Obviously if his broods are by themselves, blink under them and focus them down, its worth the stalker losses.
As for when you should have this mothership archon thing ready: Most styles of zerg will hit broodlords between 18-21 minutes. You need to have a mothership with enough energy to vortex around 23-24 minutes. Until then, the broodlords must be fended off, even if they're not being killed. Do some harass to keep his army away from your base. Targeting down bases with zealots kill them extroardinarily fast. If he has spines at every base then you will need more zealots. If you kill all of the spines at any given base, he will be forced to send some of his army (a lot of zergs will send their whole army if you're lucky) to deal with you. Be an annoyance and he will miss his moment and the mothership will be archon toileting him in no time.
Thanks.
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yep as i said, sky toss works wonders, and is currently being more common on Korea ladder. I been watching alot of Korea stream and the toss has been playing it safe with stargate openers and tran into large amount of void rays and carriers to tear apart end game zerg.
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You don't, if zerg has enough brood/infestor to push you and you have no mothership you die. If he attacks before having a "kinda perfect" army you can use a crono boosted vr or 2 and a nice concave to hold his army back until the moma is out.
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warp prism! if u see a army of ~10 - 15 broods ~ 10 corrupters and ~15 festors, DONT attack into it, this army is really REALLY storng and rips apart stalkers in seconds, BUT its immobile, I love to use 2 - 3 warp prism with zealot drops to kill tech and hatchery, buy time until u get the mothership, even sacrifice a base if u need to.
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If your momma ship is late just use mobility of blink stalkers to snipe hatcheries + warp prisms with dts to snipe tech buildings (if you have dts). While you are making a pressure with stalkers, just wait for recall and go home.
Though in my macro pvz games i always have one observer in zerg´s base so i see the hive timing whole game. It is much easier to react properly with the obs in base.
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On June 18 2012 19:23 Rasputincz wrote:
If your momma ship is late just use mobility of blink stalkers to snipe hatcheries + warp prisms with dts to snipe tech buildings (if you have dts). While you are making a pressure with stalkers, just wait for recall and go home.
Though in my macro pvz games i always have one observer in zerg´s base so i see the hive timing whole game. It is much easier to react properly with the obs in base.
Yeah I like it so much more to just attack once he starts greater Spire, so my army should be there AFTER he decided to build Corruptors.
But vs Broodlord Infestor you can only really attack with Archon Mothership or all Air Units.
IF you manage to get his Infestors out of position and you are rather Stalker heavy you can Blink under the BLs and kill them but that relys on the Zerg to make a huge mistake.
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EPT
