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On July 12 2012 12:17 AndySCWilson wrote:
Now I'm pretty inexperienced, and don't have much of a clue when it comes to thinking about this game - so I'm posting here for you guys to show me why my thinking is wrong.
Is it reasonable (or even possible) to mix-and-match openings and transitions? I really how Stephano's build transitions, but I really hate grabbing gas so early (easy to scout, makes attacking them awkward when they have that much of a heads-up). So I'm tempted to adapt DRG's version of the opening, because it gas after lings. But I really love getting that third behind the push - is it reasonable to use a DRG opening, but still get that early third, instead of the macro hatch?
Furthermore can I not go muta but continue into infester/ling/bling/ultra, quick hive - like stephanos? Do you need to go muta to deny drops if you open with DRG's but not Stephanos? Does DRG builds put the Terran in a position where they basically have to go for drop play, thus putting me in a position where I need mutas to deny?
Is the answer it to take a later gas with the stephano (perhaps at 23) opening and just keep the drones mining gas?
Yeah if I am doing some sort of roach/bane/ling all in I get gases after lings are out so that lings + queens deny any scouting.
YOu can take the third instead of macro hatch there is nothing stopping you, you can go ling/bane/ultra/infestor again nothing is stopping you its up to you how to transition. There are no rules stating that because you are copying what DRG is doing means you have to do exactly what he is doing.
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On July 12 2012 12:52 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:17 AndySCWilson wrote:
Now I'm pretty inexperienced, and don't have much of a clue when it comes to thinking about this game - so I'm posting here for you guys to show me why my thinking is wrong.
Is it reasonable (or even possible) to mix-and-match openings and transitions? I really how Stephano's build transitions, but I really hate grabbing gas so early (easy to scout, makes attacking them awkward when they have that much of a heads-up). So I'm tempted to adapt DRG's version of the opening, because it gas after lings. But I really love getting that third behind the push - is it reasonable to use a DRG opening, but still get that early third, instead of the macro hatch?
Furthermore can I not go muta but continue into infester/ling/bling/ultra, quick hive - like stephanos? Do you need to go muta to deny drops if you open with DRG's but not Stephanos? Does DRG builds put the Terran in a position where they basically have to go for drop play, thus putting me in a position where I need mutas to deny?
Is the answer it to take a later gas with the stephano (perhaps at 23) opening and just keep the drones mining gas? Yeah if I am doing some sort of roach/bane/ling all in I get gases after lings are out so that lings + queens deny any scouting. YOu can take the third instead of macro hatch there is nothing stopping you, you can go ling/bane/ultra/infestor again nothing is stopping you its up to you how to transition. There are no rules stating that because you are copying what DRG is doing means you have to do exactly what he is doing.
blade is absolutely right - you can transition in any number of ways. I actually like where your head is, AndySCWilson, with the delayed early gas opening and the fast third, with a transition into Infestor/Ling/Ultra. That's usually what I do after any form of early roach/ling or roach/ling/baneling timing.
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I've been trying a variation on stephano's variation :D. I get 2 more gas at 36 and put 2 drones in each, in addition to the one in my main of course, giving me 3 gases with 2 drones on each. This gives me a little more gas (~100) around the 8:30 mark, which i can either use for more banelings or earlier tech in my transition to a macro game.
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really good guide :D
this is coming back into fashion against terrans who are uber greedy aka 3 cc -> double ebay
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Great formatting and resources in this guide, great job Tang.
A lot has been discussed about the positive and negatives of each but how about from a Terran perspective? What are the best BOs to choose and what are effective ways to follow up for a solid mid game?
The best two I can come up with are: (After 1 rax FE)
-Rushing siege tank and going 3CC fast upgrade style. (I've tested the build and you can get 3 tanks out w/ siege mode before 8:30
-Going for a 1/1/1 hellion + banshee with 1-2 bunkers. Hellions allow you to spot the all-in coming early and prepare by maynarding scvs into the main and getting extra bunkers etc. The banshees allow you to take pot shots on the roach/baneling before they attack and possibly counter aggression on the 3rd (Although I haven't tested this much yet so not sure if Z can have queens + spore prepared for this)
As Terran i see 2 base aggression from Z almost 30% of my games even before this guide and It's something I'm certainly having trouble with.
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On July 22 2012 12:24 734pot wrote:
I've been trying a variation on stephano's variation :D. I get 2 more gas at 36 and put 2 drones in each, in addition to the one in my main of course, giving me 3 gases with 2 drones on each. This gives me a little more gas (~100) around the 8:30 mark, which i can either use for more banelings or earlier tech in my transition to a macro game.
Hmm I didn't know double-mining geysers was that much better.
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In my opinion it would be better if you used drone count instead of suply in some cases. Like when you say make rouch warren and baneling then drone back to 44 suply it would be better if it was drone back to 38 drones.
You can easely lose drones or be forced to make lings wich screws up the build order and you can easely get back to right drone count in some cases.
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On July 22 2012 21:14 Vies wrote:
Great formatting and resources in this guide, great job Tang.
A lot has been discussed about the positive and negatives of each but how about from a Terran perspective? What are the best BOs to choose and what are effective ways to follow up for a solid mid game?
The best two I can come up with are: (After 1 rax FE)
-Rushing siege tank and going 3CC fast upgrade style. (I've tested the build and you can get 3 tanks out w/ siege mode before 8:30
-Going for a 1/1/1 hellion + banshee with 1-2 bunkers. Hellions allow you to spot the all-in coming early and prepare by maynarding scvs into the main and getting extra bunkers etc. The banshees allow you to take pot shots on the roach/baneling before they attack and possibly counter aggression on the 3rd (Although I haven't tested this much yet so not sure if Z can have queens + spore prepared for this)
As Terran i see 2 base aggression from Z almost 30% of my games even before this guide and It's something I'm certainly having trouble with.
Rushing tanks into 3cc fast upgrades is suicide against any zerg who doesn't allin you (and they shouldn't when they see no hellions coming out - even if it's bio, roach baneling is terrible against a bio opener; ling-bling bust is better against that as roaches really are trash and only good if terrans built too many hellions). I used to do it and you have no good timings. Sure you get 2-2 1-0 pretty fast but by then the zerg should have 4/5 bases and creeped the map and your push should get crushed. Going fast tanks into something other than marine tank (mech, bc) are something I don't have experience with though, maybe it plays out better.
As for defending it, you can get at least 2 hellions. Somehow scout they don't have 3rd (scv, you can safely push across map with 4 marines and leave one in bunker at home, or the first 2 hellions) and if you don't, just go for tanks after that. If the bunker at home is against a cliff and has a depot nearby partially walling it, even if you get suprised by a ton of speedlings, the bunker at home + hellions coming soon should keep you decently safe.
The marines alone should def either scout the lack of a 3rd or see a ton of lings at least. The tank with seige should come out in decent time, if you don't go beyond 4 hellions. If you go for banshees you better have a 3rd oc because the roaches will kill so many scvs as the banshee kills it. Going up to 4 hellions is a different story of course, if the Zerg doesn't go for the later double gas and instead goes for a gas when your scouting scv is still around. If you see that I'd build 2 hellions and then switch before you even scout. Of course the Zerg could be going for a speedling opener but that's rare in my games, and the quick 7roaches after 15hat hit super soon, so I'd also be getting maruders and a bunker if you see quicker gas.
The lack of damage hellions do now is another story, but defending/scouting roach baneling imo isn't too terrible, and I honestly look forward to it because it's so much better then playing against a Zerg who goes 6queen/3hatch, unless I get lucky and get to bunker their 3rd as it goes up.
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On July 23 2012 17:41 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 21:14 Vies wrote:
Great formatting and resources in this guide, great job Tang.
A lot has been discussed about the positive and negatives of each but how about from a Terran perspective? What are the best BOs to choose and what are effective ways to follow up for a solid mid game?
The best two I can come up with are: (After 1 rax FE)
-Rushing siege tank and going 3CC fast upgrade style. (I've tested the build and you can get 3 tanks out w/ siege mode before 8:30
-Going for a 1/1/1 hellion + banshee with 1-2 bunkers. Hellions allow you to spot the all-in coming early and prepare by maynarding scvs into the main and getting extra bunkers etc. The banshees allow you to take pot shots on the roach/baneling before they attack and possibly counter aggression on the 3rd (Although I haven't tested this much yet so not sure if Z can have queens + spore prepared for this)
As Terran i see 2 base aggression from Z almost 30% of my games even before this guide and It's something I'm certainly having trouble with. Rushing tanks into 3cc fast upgrades is suicide against any zerg who doesn't allin you. I used to do it and you have no good timings. Sure you get 2-2 1-0 pretty fast but by then the zerg should have 4/5 bases and creeped the map and your push should get crushed.
Well you have to hit a very strong midgame timing or do lots of drops. The thing is, Zerg could just not bust when they see tanks and then macro up and be even.
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If you want to make the quide even more informative you should add details like what you target or how to micro during the bust. (targeting helions with rouches and what do you try to kill first)
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On July 25 2012 23:22 SacredCoconut wrote:
If you want to make the quide even more informative you should add details like what you target or how to micro during the bust. (targeting helions with rouches and what do you try to kill first)
Yeah I did neglect the execution a bit. It's pretty situational, but generally you want your banelings to connect with groups of units (ideally marine/hellion/scvs). You usually want roaches to lead up ramps and whatnot, as 8+ roaches can break a depot in a matter of seconds. They also tank the most damage and will help to keep your lings/banelings alive to surround/explode on his bigger groups of units. As you mention, you want hellions to get focused down by roaches if you can, since they do the most damage to your zerglings. You can use the lings to surround the hellions too, though.
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Alright I have a question. I'm only top silver (terran) and I played a platinum zerg who did this. I was going for a 1rax fe 10:00 timing and he got me before 10:00 due to the nature of the timing, I probably should have scouted better but whatever..
The thing is he got into my main and basically killed all but a handful of scvs and then once I finally got all his lings out he just left.. Now does this mean that because he didn't do enough damage and realized he would be behind the rest of the game? or did he just lose connection? lol
Also he didn't ever expand so it was more of an all in than just hoping for damage..
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On September 03 2012 13:51 A3mercury wrote:
Alright I have a question. I'm only top silver (terran) and I played a platinum zerg who did this. I was going for a 1rax fe 10:00 timing and he got me before 10:00 due to the nature of the timing, I probably should have scouted better but whatever..
The thing is he got into my main and basically killed all but a handful of scvs and then once I finally got all his lings out he just left.. Now does this mean that because he didn't do enough damage and realized he would be behind the rest of the game? or did he just lose connection? lol
Also he didn't ever expand so it was more of an all in than just hoping for damage..
Definitely sounds like he either DC'd or thought he was more behind than he was. He doesn't have to take a third to be ahead, he could take it after as long as he does enough damage to your economy/army.
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I don't know why people rag on you for being a cheesy all-in player. You really put the fun back into the game. You really play this game with the intention of causing as much damage as possible. Hit them hard and fast I say!
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ive adapted my own version of this build that i feel is better in our current meta game and also is able to be done reactionally.
15 hatch
16 pool
2x queens
2 sets of lings
2x queens
double gas at 4:45
@100 gas ling speed and take 3 guys off gas
@50% ling speed drop roach warren
drop 3rd
build 5 overlords
build drones but make sure you have 750 minerals and 10 lava when roach warren pops (sorry not completely refined. note drones should be before the overlords but im not sure how many to build and still get 5 overlords out and 750 minerals)
@95% roach warren 3 guys in gas
@100% roach warren 10 roaches
@ 50 gas bane nest
lings lings lings
@100% bane nest morph 10 banes.
it should now be 9:30 and you have 10 banes 10 roaches and at least 40 lings right outside the enemy base.
from here you can straight up drone or all in.
The idea of the build is to make it look like a normal queen build with no gas and a 3rd. using 2 queens at the front to deny scouting. it also transitions well back into economy with a 3rd almost already completed.
I think the 3rd would probably lower your potential drone count quite significantly but im not sure you would even have the lava to burn all the minerals from extra drones. unless you plan to transition into 2 base lair i think its a good option.
Im also trying to refine a build which hits with similar forces but a lot sooner since this build could cut out a lot and be much more all in.
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On September 10 2012 22:37 Turbogangsta wrote:
ive adapted my own version of this build that i feel is better in our current meta game and also is able to be done reactionally.
15 hatch
16 pool
2x queens
2 sets of lings
2x queens
double gas at 4:45
@100 gas ling speed and take 3 guys off gas
@50% ling speed drop roach warren
drop 3rd
build 5 overlords
build drones but make sure you have 750 minerals and 10 lava when roach warren pops (sorry not completely refined. note drones should be before the overlords but im not sure how many to build and still get 5 overlords out and 750 minerals)
@95% roach warren 3 guys in gas
@100% roach warren 10 roaches
@ 50 gas bane nest
lings lings lings
@100% bane nest morph 10 banes.
it should now be 9:30 and you have 10 banes 10 roaches and at least 40 lings right outside the enemy base.
from here you can straight up drone or all in.
The idea of the build is to make it look like a normal queen build with no gas and a 3rd. using 2 queens at the front to deny scouting. it also transitions well back into economy with a 3rd almost already completed.
I think the 3rd would probably lower your potential drone count quite significantly but im not sure you would even have the lava to burn all the minerals from extra drones. unless you plan to transition into 2 base lair i think its a good option.
Im also trying to refine a build which hits with similar forces but a lot sooner since this build could cut out a lot and be much more all in.
Yeah I believe it was Line who started taking the third before building roaches, while still execution the R/L/B bust. It's definitely more transition-friendly, and a bit of a "metagame" tactic in that Terran players who scout the third timing may not prepare for such a bust. Still, the attack hits later, which means a player who opens banshees will have that much more time to pick off your morphing banelings. Hitting at 9:30 could easily mean the difference between siege tech being done as well, so I think there's pros and cons to both sides.
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I managed to get DRG's timing down to around 7:30 ingame minutes -> this was when I started morphing banelings outside of the base and not when the attack hit. The only thing I did different was not drone scout + not really transferring drones, so I managed to build and saturate my natural earlier. This build is so economical, I can't help feel that you need a macro hatch as soon as the attack hits since you will be floating alot of minerals and you only really need 3 gas to support ling/baneling map control.
I think the transition is a little late though. Inbetween sets of lings, 2x evo's need to be up for a solid midgame should it have to go to that. I suggest at 9minutes when you take the lair and 3rd/4th gas. Then +1/+1 should be finished by 11/12 minutes hopefully. With the addition of the Spire, this build transitions into an excellent standard mutaling game.
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how is this different from your other banelinga ll in? can someone link me that guide? i forgot it
which variation is the most effecitve for ladder? lol thanks
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Very nice guide, well formatted, I think it's very nice that you've included several versions.
However, as stated by yourself, Stephano will often do a bust at around 8.20, while safely transitioning into macro afterwards.
I think you should do a guide on this style, complex as it may not or may be. A lot of people seem to fear the agressive nature of Zerg, and this might be something of a good introduction to it? 
Imo, the 8.20 macrobust seems to be a good way to do damage while not sacrificing too much, but more importantly, keeping the initiative (which I personally love to do in ZvX.)
I'll provide some Stephano replays as a reference, if you guys would like to study it. (Although, I guess most of you have seen these games.)
Stephano "macrobust" examples
+ Show Spoiler +
Again, huge thanks for your guides Tang! You deserve more attention than you get.
(Also, first post.)
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On September 19 2012 09:06 j.k.l wrote:
how is this different from your other banelinga ll in? can someone link me that guide? i forgot it
which variation is the most effecitve for ladder? lol thanks
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306525
The DRG version is less all-in and arrives later with more units. Both styles are effective on ladder.
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EPT
