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I'm looking for a strong ZvT 2base all-in for low leagues and I don't mind if it's pure all-in.
However, I also want to be safe against his own all-ins.
So I would like to know if this is a BO loss against any terran cheese, like banshees or any other.
Your other 8:20 build seems cool because it hits earlier, but I'm concerned about going gas before pool because it seems like a BO loss to 2rax. You also don't drone scout so how do you deal with that?
Another detail I'm considering is if gas before pool will look more suspicious to him. The DRG version is more similar to standard play in gas timing and also a later roach warren, making it more unlikely he will see it coming.
Yet another possibility is going for your roach/ling (no banelings), which also seems potent.
Which all-in you recommend to have high winrate until diamond (if I execute it well) and be safe against his cheese at the same time?
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On October 12 2012 00:12 Azoryen wrote:
I'm looking for a strong ZvT 2base all-in for low leagues and I don't mind if it's pure all-in.
However, I also want to be safe against his own all-ins.
So I would like to know if this is a BO lose against any terran cheese, like banshees or any other.
Your other 8:20 build seems cool because it hits earlier, but I'm concerned about going gas before pool because it seems like a BO lose to 2rax. You also don't drone scout so how do you deal with that?
Another detail I'm considering is if gas before pool will look more suspicious to him. The DRG version is more similar to standard play in gas timing and also a later roach warren, making it more unlikely he will see it coming.
Yet another possibility is going for your roach/ling (no banelings), which also seems potent.
Which all-in you recommend to have high winrate until diamond (if I execute it well) and be safe against his cheese at the same time?
Well gas before pool isn't really a build order loss against 2rax, just makes it a bit harder to hold because you need to pull out of gas asap. I would recommend the Roach/Ling All-In that hits around 7:00. You only need 19 drones and 2 Queens, so it's VERY aggressive and early.
Unfortunately, there is no all-in build that you can do that will be 100% safe against a 2-rax all-in though. You just need to be able to defend it. The good thing about going gas-first in this scenario is you can actually sacrifice your expansion and go for a Roach/Ling/Baneling all-in (Something I've used successful against top master/gm 2-rax timings).
Here's a video that may help: http://tangstarcraft.com/?p=1775
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Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions.
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On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions.
Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread?
From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing?
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On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing?
The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc.
tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts.
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On October 12 2012 10:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc. tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts.
So basically this is only viable after scouting that T is going for bio or marine/tank/medivac after he 1raxFE?
Is it possible to get that scouting information before you commit to the all-in?
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On October 12 2012 10:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc. tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts.
2 base muta seems to be the only viable all in versus hellion/banshee, but I'm not sure if you can do that after scout. It almost seems like a blind metagame thing whenever I've seen it.
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On October 17 2012 03:38 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 10:07 TangSC wrote:On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc. tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts. 2 base muta seems to be the only viable all in versus hellion/banshee, but I'm not sure if you can do that after scout. It almost seems like a blind metagame thing whenever I've seen it.
Can you be more specific about the build please?
I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
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On October 17 2012 08:12 Azoryen wrote:
Can you be more specific about the build please?
I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
Yeah it's super vulnerable to all-ins, I don't know why I don't see it more. There're various all-ins that Z can do where T players are very vulnerable, like 2/3base bane busts, roach busts, etc.
I'm assuming pro players are better about defending these all-ins, but my experience is that unless they go mass rax and delay tech, you can usually win with an early enough bust.
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On October 17 2012 08:33 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 08:12 Azoryen wrote:
Can you be more specific about the build please?
I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
Yeah it's super vulnerable to all-ins, I don't know why I don't see it more. There're various all-ins that Z can do where T players are very vulnerable, like 2/3base bane busts, roach busts, etc. I'm assuming pro players are better about defending these all-ins, but my experience is that unless they go mass rax and delay tech, you can usually win with an early enough bust.
So why are all these good player saying banshee/hellion is unbreakable?
Are they talking about a different build?
Reactor hellion before expo maybe?
That's not very common now is it?
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People here are too broad with hellion/banshee. Yeah atleast in my experience if terran goes 1 rack expand into 2 gas hellion/banshee its prety much hard counter to the version in the opening, but if terran goes 3oc and then hellion/banshee it will probely do damage or kill them.
Edit. if you are thinking about other all ins i am prety positive 7 rouch and mass speedling (gas before pool) after hatch first are viable.
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On October 17 2012 08:41 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 08:33 Defenestrator wrote:On October 17 2012 08:12 Azoryen wrote:
Can you be more specific about the build please?
I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
Yeah it's super vulnerable to all-ins, I don't know why I don't see it more. There're various all-ins that Z can do where T players are very vulnerable, like 2/3base bane busts, roach busts, etc. I'm assuming pro players are better about defending these all-ins, but my experience is that unless they go mass rax and delay tech, you can usually win with an early enough bust. So why are all these good player saying banshee/hellion is unbreakable? Are they talking about a different build? Reactor hellion before expo maybe? That's not very common now is it?
I'm not sure to be honest, if you open something like 15h/16p/16g into a bane bust allin, it hits before banshee and when there's like maybe 2-4 hellions who goes CC-first, so you can kill a T player pretty easily with this.
If you want to allin, you have to open pretty early gas, and 2-base allins are a lot easier to execute and much faster than 3-base allins, of course.
Just intuitively, any decent roach/bane timing that hits an early expo T player who goes straight into hellion/banshee tech will do a ton of damage. Hellions in small numbers are not that good vs roaches or mass speedling/banes. Here's a quick build for bane bust:
15h/16p/16g
drone until pool finishes, 2 queens, constant ling production
at 100gas, speed, at 50 gas, bane nest
send lings outside his base, morph banes
Obviously things like scout denial is good, but if they go straight into a tech build this feels like a build order loss to me when I've done it. I forget the exact timing of this build, but it hits pretty early... definitely before banshee.
I think the main reason you see this less nowadays is because most Z players open gasless with pure queen for 3base eco. If a T player scouts gas though with his SCV, I would think that he should delay tech a little in case of an allin. This can be held with 2-3 rax marines behind a rax wall, but I don't think much else stands up well to a bane bust.
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I think it's more worthwhile to look into huge timings that hit around 10 minutes when terran's production is just starting to kick in after a hellion/banshee 3cc opener. I've seen speed roach or roach/queen/nydus builds succeed at these timings, along with 2 base muta/baneling. That's what I recommend if Tang is looking to make another guide on aggressive ZvT.
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On October 17 2012 10:30 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I think it's more worthwhile to look into huge timings that hit around 10 minutes when terran's production is just starting to kick in after a hellion/banshee 3cc opener. I've seen speed roach or roach/queen/nydus builds succeed at these timings, along with 2 base muta/baneling. That's what I recommend if Tang is looking to make another guide on aggressive ZvT.
There are large Roach/Ling/Baneling timings with speed and +1 armor that hit around 10 minutes, but I think the Muta/Baneling is the better option. I've been asked by quite a few people to do a guide on that 2-base all-in.
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Very nice. I like Stephano's the best because of the third hatch. That's the one I would usually go with when I went with this build. If you do no damage you're pretty far behind so in that sense it's an all in.
You should also try to find a game from Hyun where he does a variation of this build. (Sorry don't have a link and am at work so I can't find the game.) What was notable about Hyun's variation was that he broke his units up into groups based on type (blings, lings and roaches) and had them attack at staggered times so that the lings and roaches converged at the same time immediately behind the blings. It was imipressive. It was like this all-in version 2.0.
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This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries.
This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd.
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On October 25 2012 06:42 dj.ricecakes wrote:
This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries.
This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd.
All a terran needs is a few more bunkers, maybe a barracks wall off, and a siege tank or two and it easily stops this build, I know from experience. It is not an unfair advantage at all, if the attack fails you have an extreme disadvantage, if Terran gets quick Siege mode it just flat out fails.
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What is the best way to execute this build vs Protoss?
I 14 pool 15 hatch, but maybe it is due to my bad mechanic but the Protoss most often has a sentry to block the ramp by the time my attack hits.
Is there an alternative? Maybe just Speedling/Baneling bust?
Please help.
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On October 25 2012 07:41 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 06:42 dj.ricecakes wrote:
This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries.
This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd. All a terran needs is a few more bunkers, maybe a barracks wall off, and a siege tank or two and it easily stops this build, I know from experience. It is not an unfair advantage at all, if the attack fails you have an extreme disadvantage, if Terran gets quick Siege mode it just flat out fails.
Nope. The attack hits at 8:30 mins, what Terran has enough Siege Tanks (if any) to stop this?
Also, you only need 1 more wave of Lings to follow up.. Whilst all this is happening, the Zerg has put up his 3rd, teched (or teching) to lair and has put up a macro hatch. With 2 base full mineral saturation he has enough resources. For the attack to 'fail', the Zerg has to be asleep.. Otherwise blowing up bunkers/depots, killing workers, stop mining at the natural is enough damage to put him ahead.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On January 30 2013 08:43 NarAliya wrote:
What is the best way to execute this build vs Protoss?
I 14 pool 15 hatch, but maybe it is due to my bad mechanic but the Protoss most often has a sentry to block the ramp by the time my attack hits.
Is there an alternative? Maybe just Speedling/Baneling bust?
Please help.
This is a very specifically ZvT opening
On January 30 2013 08:46 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:41 GGzerG wrote:On October 25 2012 06:42 dj.ricecakes wrote:
This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries.
This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd. All a terran needs is a few more bunkers, maybe a barracks wall off, and a siege tank or two and it easily stops this build, I know from experience. It is not an unfair advantage at all, if the attack fails you have an extreme disadvantage, if Terran gets quick Siege mode it just flat out fails. Nope. The attack hits at 8:30 mins, what Terran has enough Siege Tanks (if any) to stop this? Also, you only need 1 more wave of Lings to follow up.. Whilst all this is happening, the Zerg has put up his 3rd, teched (or teching) to lair and has put up a macro hatch. With 2 base full mineral saturation he has enough resources. For the attack to 'fail', the Zerg has to be asleep.. Otherwise blowing up bunkers/depots, killing workers, stop mining at the natural is enough damage to put him ahead.
You are quoting a four month old post
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EPT
