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On June 13 2012 13:29 FabledIntegral wrote:
Funny how it's come back in style. Do people not remember like a year and a half ago, when these exact roach/bane/ling timings were shitting on Terrans on Metal and Xel Naga?
Are you referring to the 28 food push with roach etc ? Sure the game was still in an evolving stage; as is now and we are seeing more efficiency i.e. being able to transition out of these builds.
Xel Naga was a while back. Season 1 ?
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On June 13 2012 12:45 lysergic wrote:You should use more recent games for the build orders, especially for DRG; things have changed a lot since november. He started doing fast 4 queen with delayed 3 gas in january~. After the queen buff, pretty much everyone started opening fast 4 queen delayed 3 gas. DRG vs MKP - Finals game 1 - Shakuras Plateau (MLG Columbus) DRG vs Ganzi - game 3 - Daybreak (MLG Winter Arena) DRG vs TheStC - game 2 - Entombed Valley (MLG Winter Arena) 4 queens asap 5:30-5:45 3 gas 6:20 roach warren -ling speed @100gas -roaches -baneling nest (~7:50-8:10) take third while attacking Oooh, I like this. Thank you very much for including the replays.
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Excellent, thank you Tang - I've been looking for an aggressive two-base build to add into my arsenal but a lot of them seemed too all-in. These new variants where Zerg is taking a third base behind the attack is really powerful and its great to see such a good guide put together on it.
I quite like the Stephano variant, the earlier third is right up my alley.
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On June 13 2012 22:55 TheRealzz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:29 FabledIntegral wrote:
Funny how it's come back in style. Do people not remember like a year and a half ago, when these exact roach/bane/ling timings were shitting on Terrans on Metal and Xel Naga? Are you referring to the 28 food push with roach etc ? Sure the game was still in an evolving stage; as is now and we are seeing more efficiency i.e. being able to transition out of these builds. Xel Naga was a while back. Season 1 ?
Nope. It was nearly teh same roach/bane/ling attack. I remember a few pros posting that it was ridiculous to stop on metal, unless you specifically rushed to tanks and had like 3 minimum with a bunker as well.
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On June 13 2012 22:57 snexwang wrote:Oooh, I like this. Thank you very much for including the replays.
I do too, you can get a LOT more banelings with this version.
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I found another recent game of Stephano vs Illusion. Stephano does it even though Illusion goes for gas first, Stephano's push does enough damage for him to transition into his standard infestor/early hive style.
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In the stephano build, you say "refill gas at 36", when nowhere earlier in the guide am I prompted to take guys off gas...
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On June 14 2012 07:24 AndySCWilson wrote:
In the stephano build, you say "refill gas at 36", when nowhere earlier in the guide am I prompted to take guys off gas...
Updated. He takes drones out after speed is started.
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oh my god, 49 votes to 49.
i have the power, I HAVE THE POWER!
it's not an all in
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I think the poll is flawed. It's a large attack, and if you fail to do significant damage then of course you're behind. But that doesn't automatically make it an all-in.
And then to answer, it obviously depends on which variation you're doing, and how much damage you do. Ideally you can maybe save larva as you attack and then consciously decide whether your next round is lings or drones, and then play on from there.
I feel like this is going to be hard to use on the ladder because terrans never no gas fe. Reactor hellion is still the norm (at least where I am, at low masters/high diamond).
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On June 15 2012 10:01 galtdunn wrote:
I think the poll is flawed. It's a large attack, and if you fail to do significant damage then of course you're behind. But that doesn't automatically make it an all-in.
And then to answer, it obviously depends on which variation you're doing, and how much damage you do. Ideally you can maybe save larva as you attack and then consciously decide whether your next round is lings or drones, and then play on from there.
I feel like this is going to be hard to use on the ladder because terrans never no gas fe. Reactor hellion is still the norm (at least where I am, at low masters/high diamond).
This is still strong against reactor hellion expand builds, it just depends on the follow up (same goes for 1 rax FE though!)
By the way the build Stephano used against Demuslim in the vod posted above is actually an 8 minute attack with 7 roaches, 9 banelings, 10 or so lings with another 2 injects worth of lings made behind it and a 3rd base (at 8 minutes). I'm a bigger fan of the gasless openers, but that's definitely strong too.
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On June 15 2012 13:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 10:01 galtdunn wrote:
I think the poll is flawed. It's a large attack, and if you fail to do significant damage then of course you're behind. But that doesn't automatically make it an all-in.
And then to answer, it obviously depends on which variation you're doing, and how much damage you do. Ideally you can maybe save larva as you attack and then consciously decide whether your next round is lings or drones, and then play on from there.
I feel like this is going to be hard to use on the ladder because terrans never no gas fe. Reactor hellion is still the norm (at least where I am, at low masters/high diamond). This is still strong against reactor hellion expand builds, it just depends on the follow up (same goes for 1 rax FE though!) By the way the build Stephano used against Demuslim in the vod posted above is actually an 8 minute attack with 7 roaches, 9 banelings, 10 or so lings with another 2 injects worth of lings made behind it and a 3rd base (at 8 minutes). I'm a bigger fan of the gasless openers, but that's definitely strong too.
Originally I liked DRG's version the most as well, but the more I watch Stephano do this 8:20 bust and transition, the more I think it's better for the mid/late game.
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United States8476 Posts
One thing I notice that DRG does consistently whenever he does any roach pressure is to manually build roaches from his main hatch first and then the natural when he has the additional resources. That way, the roaches all wind up at his opponents' base at a similar and more uniform time.
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If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition"
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Thanks for the guide. This was actually something that I wanted to add to my playbook. Having a strong attack as a response to terran gasless opening is a nice change of pace to the otherwise very macro oriented play.
On June 15 2012 23:41 TangSC wrote:Originally I liked DRG's version the most as well, but the more I watch Stephano do this 8:20 bust and transition, the more I think it's better for the mid/late game.
Out of the versions I really like the Stephano's variation the most. It has the basic idea of expanding, but still hitting like a truck. It actually has a solid transition.
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thanks tang ^^
1 more all-in to compensate for my terrible zvt
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On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote:
If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition"
You're making the assumption that the zerg makes 10+ banelings after seeing that the attack won't do damage, then loses every single unit without killing anything at all. That did in fact happen - MVP against Suhosin (Line). Line tried to transition out, but his losses were too heavy and MVP's build was greedy enough to have a good advantage that let him take the game. A big part of Line's loss was due to him trying to transition into 3 base muta, which was absolutely the wrong call.
Generally if the terran has a good defense, it's wise for the zerg to simply not morph any banelings and either commit the roach/ling only to doing damage, or not attack with anything at all and just secure a third and lair safely.
You have to remember that an 8 minute third is still quite fast relative to the times zerg typically manages to take a third base (aside from some riskier very early third base timings), and the inject mechanic means that if zerg can purely drone (which they definitely can if they commit nothing to an attack), they can have 3 base saturation quite quickly. You're actually taking a third as you move out with this and often you'll use your next two injects on pure drones if you don't commit to an attack. About the best a terran can try to do to pressure you is with medivac harassment or a 2 base all-in and that's by no means a free win.
You're forgetting that players often do transition out of all-in builds depending on how much they commit to them. Sometimes they merely put you slightly behind, other times you committed too much. ST_Ace did a heavy warpgate all-in against BboongBboong in a famous game recently where he transitioned into a third base and later into storm drops in a long game, despite having done essentially no damage with it, simply because he pulled back soon enough.
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On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote:
If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition"
Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category.
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On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote:
If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category.
I agree with what you're saying, mostly. The poll seems pretty divided on it as well, with a slight favor to "not an all-in", so I'll just try it a little bit for myself. Whatever the case, it seems like a very interesting build. Thanks for posting~
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EPT
