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[G] DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" (Or is it?) - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
June 12 2012 00:47 GMT
#21
On June 12 2012 09:37 Walitgon wrote:
Show nested quote +
[B]On June 12 2012 08:35 TangSC wrote:
Updated, thanks - I hate typeos


I truly hope this is intended to be irony!

Haha yes.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
thimius
Profile Joined May 2012
Sweden29 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 00:59:21
June 12 2012 00:55 GMT
#22
I really feel like u should have (Z)Symbol's version of this in the thread since i personally think he does it the best.

PS. Great Read thanks for an awesome guide
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
June 12 2012 01:07 GMT
#23
I really love this guide and was wondering how to do this sort of timing push ever since MLG. We saw Stephano using this a lot and I think its a great way to be an aggressive Zerg. Its about time we had some timings where we can be really aggressive and "swarmy" without having to sac total economy and be considered "all-in". To anyone who voted that its really all-in, it might be highly-aggressive but as we saw, its very possible to transition out of it into standard play.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
June 12 2012 01:56 GMT
#24
On June 12 2012 09:55 thimius wrote:
I really feel like u should have (Z)Symbol's version of this in the thread since i personally think he does it the best.

PS. Great Read thanks for an awesome guide

You wouldn't happen to have replays or VODs of Symbol's version?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
chuky500
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
France473 Posts
June 12 2012 02:22 GMT
#25
He did it 3 times in the GSTL. I don't know if there are replays but there are premium vods.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67549/?set=6
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67549/?set=7
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67549/?set=8
Echo_
Profile Joined November 2010
48 Posts
June 12 2012 09:17 GMT
#26
I think the fact it is not truly an all-in is pretty apparent when watching games such as the ones at MLG you refer to (Stephano vs. MKP on Entombed is a great example).

It probably the most all-inish thing a Zerg can do in the early-midgame, yeah.

However, if you watch the Stephano vs. MKP game on Entombed, you can clearly see how it isn't an all-in.

Yes, he wasn't making drones. However, he now has units that aren't going to waste. They are useful for the later attack MKP did, and that was quite apparent when MKP finally did push out. I'm sure we've all seen the GIF by now of the 3 fungals going off while banelings crash into the marines.

It is indeed a big deal that those units weren't drones. But if you look at the Zerg macro mechanic, droning behind the aggression catches you up fairly quickly. You now have units to keep yourself safe, and your only real cost is mins. It actually becomes a big deal that he made banelings because of that. His transition is into ling/infestor with upgrades. Upgrades aren't deterred by the build, only infestor count. ~2 infestors worth of gas were cut into. Lings are free, especially on the 3 base economy that he was fully at only 1-2 minutes after the "all-in."

It definitely puts him at a disadvantage, but it is not game over by any means. He can actually feel safer to drone up and tech up. If the units are lost, I think that's another story.
IMMvp / AcerMMA / NSHjjakji / MarineKingPrime / STBomber / SKTFantasy / STXINnoVation / KTFlash
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 13:24:41
June 12 2012 10:12 GMT
#27
Well you guys have to remember that the DRG version starts making units when you should start making units anyway, because if you see T moving out, you can only build so many units in one or two cycles anyway (ret dies to this all the time as he overestimates the reaction time zerg has when a push is coming, even if scouted immediately). You can't be building only drones till he pushes out at 12 minutes for example because you simply will not have enough stuff when he's at your base (and if you "catch" him sieging up at your base it's too late anyway because you want to hit in the middle of the map). This might work for pushes until the 8min mark, but not beyond that.

So the only difference is like the above poster mentionend: your units aren't sitting around waiting for a push (that's maybe not even coming) and thus going to waste, but they hit the T base very soon after they are created and are virtually bound to do some damage, if not end the game outright.
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
June 12 2012 10:50 GMT
#28
DRG's recent victory over Alecia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship

Stopped reading right there.
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
June 12 2012 11:17 GMT
#29
On June 12 2012 19:50 HaXXspetten wrote:
Show nested quote +
DRG's recent victory over Alecia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship

Stopped reading right there.


That's a funny reason to stop reading.

Why would you deprive yourself of additional builds because of a typo?
Cereal
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 12:16:13
June 12 2012 12:12 GMT
#30
Yep, this is not an all in. It's a timing push that requires you to make a small ammount of damage to the oponent, As long as you see to it that you can defend banshees then there is nothing that can punch a hole in this build really hard. If you see tanks you simply drone for a while and then time your defense for the 2 base tank or take a 4th for the 3 base tank.

It's a build that punishes terrans that try to go either 3 orbital double upgrade or 3 orbital banshee with cut marine production. You can defend this with tank openings or with mass bio openings. It's just a good build none the less though since you dont really need to deal that much damage and you can often times head back if you see tanks. And it almost allways forces scvs off the natural minerals for a good while.
transience
Profile Joined February 2011
Belgium74 Posts
June 12 2012 12:38 GMT
#31
Tang, what would you say is the most important difference between this build and the Roach/Ling/Baneling "Big Bust" build you wrote a guide about some time ago? Would you recommend one over the other? What sort of scouting information would lead you to choose this build rather than the other one?
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
June 12 2012 14:28 GMT
#32
On June 12 2012 19:50 HaXXspetten wrote:
Show nested quote +
DRG's recent victory over Alecia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship

Stopped reading right there.

I knew it looked wrong...haha, updated. Thanks!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
June 12 2012 14:31 GMT
#33
On June 12 2012 21:38 transience wrote:
Tang, what would you say is the most important difference between this build and the Roach/Ling/Baneling "Big Bust" build you wrote a guide about some time ago? Would you recommend one over the other? What sort of scouting information would lead you to choose this build rather than the other one?

The "Big Bust" comes much earlier (8:20) and is actually a smaller push (8 roaches, 6 banelings, 20+ zerglings). It much more all-in to attack this early, but the timing works well against tank and banshee expands.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Vanadiel
Profile Joined April 2012
France961 Posts
June 12 2012 17:02 GMT
#34
Really nice guide, but I have a small question, is there any example of this big roach/Banneling bust but starting with a 4 Queen build with delayed gas?

Thanks!
neoghaleon55
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7435 Posts
June 12 2012 17:09 GMT
#35
This is great, Tang!
I really love that you are comparing different variations of this build across many players.


Would you mind if I add a strategy section in DRG's fanclub and link to these guides
credits to you of course.
moo...for DRG
mYiKane
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada1772 Posts
June 12 2012 17:12 GMT
#36
On June 12 2012 18:17 Echo_ wrote:
I think the fact it is not truly an all-in is pretty apparent when watching games such as the ones at MLG you refer to (Stephano vs. MKP on Entombed is a great example).

It probably the most all-inish thing a Zerg can do in the early-midgame, yeah.

However, if you watch the Stephano vs. MKP game on Entombed, you can clearly see how it isn't an all-in.

Yes, he wasn't making drones. However, he now has units that aren't going to waste. They are useful for the later attack MKP did, and that was quite apparent when MKP finally did push out. I'm sure we've all seen the GIF by now of the 3 fungals going off while banelings crash into the marines.

It is indeed a big deal that those units weren't drones. But if you look at the Zerg macro mechanic, droning behind the aggression catches you up fairly quickly. You now have units to keep yourself safe, and your only real cost is mins. It actually becomes a big deal that he made banelings because of that. His transition is into ling/infestor with upgrades. Upgrades aren't deterred by the build, only infestor count. ~2 infestors worth of gas were cut into. Lings are free, especially on the 3 base economy that he was fully at only 1-2 minutes after the "all-in."

It definitely puts him at a disadvantage, but it is not game over by any means. He can actually feel safer to drone up and tech up. If the units are lost, I think that's another story.


agreed.

if you watch stephano's vods/replays you can see that he uses this build as a standard in zvt (almost every other game probably). even if he does no damage whatsoever with it he can still win the game, and if he catches a greedy terran offguard sometimes he can win outright.

TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
June 12 2012 20:13 GMT
#37
On June 13 2012 02:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:
This is great, Tang!
I really love that you are comparing different variations of this build across many players.


Would you mind if I add a strategy section in DRG's fanclub and link to these guides
credits to you of course.

Not at all, I'd really appreciate that :D
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
June 12 2012 20:14 GMT
#38
On June 13 2012 02:02 Vanadiel wrote:
Really nice guide, but I have a small question, is there any example of this big roach/Banneling bust but starting with a 4 Queen build with delayed gas?

Thanks!

You could absolutely do 4queen and then gas, and aim for a 44 warren and 2nd gas all the same. Maybe get the second gas a bit earlier, but it's definitely an option. You'll have a macro advantage of an earlier 3rd and lots of creep, but also it also means your push will have a smaller chance of an outright victory.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
KhAmun
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1005 Posts
June 12 2012 20:21 GMT
#39
On June 13 2012 05:14 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2012 02:02 Vanadiel wrote:
Really nice guide, but I have a small question, is there any example of this big roach/Banneling bust but starting with a 4 Queen build with delayed gas?

Thanks!

You could absolutely do 4queen and then gas, and aim for a 44 warren and 2nd gas all the same. Maybe get the second gas a bit earlier, but it's definitely an option. You'll have a macro advantage of an earlier 3rd and lots of creep, but also it also means your push will have a smaller chance of an outright victory.

I'll look for vods later, but when i originally saw this build DRG was using a gasless build with it.
He went gasless until about 36-40, then triple gas and stayed on those gas until first round of drones after the attack.
He also got 4 queens straight away, as that was the point of the quesion lol.
CheyRa
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom62 Posts
June 12 2012 20:34 GMT
#40
Thanks for a very well made guide tang, i feel like this build provides a very safe platform to take a third and transition into the late game and also an opportunity to win the game outright.

Just a quick question though, is this build viable if i scout gas from the terran at my 13 scout? Most of the time i see a full wall-off which means either proxy rax or 1 rax CC however if i get in and see gas is this still a viable way to proceed?

Cheers!
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