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velvex
Germany226 Posts
On July 28 2014 14:59 quarkral wrote: As a matter of fact why are Window and Fn not used at all? Wouldn't Fn be easier to use than Ctrl+Shift for setting control groups? Those keys don't work in SC2 and also don't exist on a lot of keyboards, especially the Fn key which almost all desktop keyboards don't have. | ||
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sil0r
Germany43 Posts
So I see the Terran layout will be Orange, I was hoping for Purple to win the race cause i practiced with it and it grew on me (cause I'm lazy) :D So for offracing with the Terran layout will there also be an optimized creepspread/inject/chronoboost sequence? I love you guys :'-) | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Z is just about the most deliberate key to press in the layout. Hop in a hotkey trainer for a day or two and you'll never make that mistake again. (though it may take a week or two if you're just playing games). @silor for the terran layout we will include optimal injects, creep, and chrono sequences only when they do not interfere with the terran hotkeys. To get the best of all races, definitely stick with random. | ||
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sil0r
Germany43 Posts
I know it is really early in the state of development, but I'm so fu*king excited, I need to give some feedback. The first thing I noticed was the sweet symbiosis between the ring and middle finger. It makes the combination: Select Worker (,) --> (.) Halt Construction super sexy. I mean like it feels really, really good. It makes me all warm and fuzzy just to think about it. The same symbiosis can be used when constructing buildings. Building depots at the speed of sound? No problemo, just press I --> O. Was it to quick? Once again: I --> O. If you still didn't get it try to reread the post in slowmo. You might ask yourself, where is he going with this? The answer lies below, exactly one keyrow below! The combination of L-->K, daaaamn it feels sooo good. So currently it is set to build CC which has only a BB priority of 5, whereas the Missileturret (BB priority of 3) has the inferior combination of I --> L. Maybe you should look into this. Now the last Patient: "Build Sensor tower" (L --> 8)... Geez pressing this combination feels more awkward than walking in your parents bedroom while they're having sex at the age of 32. Just put it on "/" and nobody has to open this door again. | ||
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HerrPfotig
Germany39 Posts
--Tankmode->Attack are on the same finger --cameras in the Masterspreadsheet for terran still need more sorting (column J) Great work! edit:typo | ||
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CrazyFabiO
Germany28 Posts
But i think there is a mistake in the Master Spreadsheet: stop and building CC should be (for Right-handed) on K, not F, am i right? :-) And in the overview tab cam 7 is binded twice, for ' and for M (cam 8 should be there i think). Another question: Why (in TRM 2.0) is Refinery on I? Why not Rax on I, CC on 9 and Refinerty on K? | ||
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sil0r
Germany43 Posts
Regarding the buildings, keep in mind you have 2 Build Basic keys "I" and "L" for TRM. You always want to avoid finger repetition so you have to analyze the key combinations rather than the single keyscore. I think Missileturret should be L --> K, Refinery I --> L and CC L --> I if you consider the given BB-Priority. Did some rearrangement of the Terran Cam/Control Groups: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i61.tinypic.com/124ess0.jpg) Maybe you can use some of it. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
On July 29 2014 06:20 sil0r wrote: The combination of L-->K, daaaamn it feels sooo good. So currently it is set to build CC which has only a BB priority of 5, whereas the Missileturret (BB priority of 3) has the inferior combination of I --> L. Maybe you should look into this. On July 30 2014 05:06 sil0r wrote: Great feedback, gives us something to look at. The current BB priority is nothing final - just a make-shift ranking of the keys when you take into account that they're always preceded by another key. It will be revised before release. F/K, while definitely comfortable, requires you to move 2 fingers off of the homerow, compared to 4/9 and D/L. That's why the combination with D/L currently has a priority of 3, while F/K has 5. Let me know what you think about that.I think Missileturret should be L --> K, Refinery I --> L and CC L --> I if you consider the given BB-Priority. On the topic of combinations, we could make it more complicated by assuming that most build basic commands are given right after a base camera and selection of an SCV. And then we could assume stuff like "You won't be building many Engineering Bays at your fourth and fifth" and factor that it. On July 29 2014 06:20 sil0r wrote: Non-Zerg buildings are problematic on Z// because it's generally good play to shift-queue the worker back to minerals after issuing a build command. Since Z// is on the thumb, shift-queuing would result in finger repetition. It's very plausible that this is not enough to make up for just how akward D/L → 5/8 is, imo. How about R/I → X/.?Now the last Patient: "Build Sensor tower" (L --> 8)... Geez pressing this combination feels more awkward than walking in your parents bedroom while they're having sex at the age of 32. Just put it on "/" and nobody has to open this door again Terran 2.0 Overview cameras On July 29 2014 17:43 HerrPfotig wrote: --cameras in the Masterspreadsheet for terran still need more sorting (column J) On July 29 2014 22:54 CrazyFabiO wrote: And in the overview tab cam 7 is binded twice, for ' and for M (cam 8 should be there i think). On July 30 2014 05:06 sil0r wrote: At the time the sheet was added, but not much was done in it. A fault on my part not to point that out in the sheet. For aesthetic purposes, cam 1-5 should be base cams for all layouts, so you'll see the current sheet differ from yours. It's really nice to see all this enthusiasm :DDid some rearrangement of the Terran Cam/Control Groups: + Show Spoiler + Maybe you can use some of it. Other On July 29 2014 17:43 HerrPfotig wrote: The problem with getting Attack and Tank on different fingers comes from the following statements:--Tankmode->Attack are on the same finger ⦁ We really want Siege on the homerow, as it is a time sensitive ability. ⦁ We really want Siege and Tank on different fingers to allow for nice leap-frogging. Since we have 2 homerow keys for abilities, where one is taken up by Attack, and the other Siege, we can't have both nice leap-frogging and Unsiege-Attack without alternate binds for Unsiege. On July 29 2014 22:54 CrazyFabiO wrote: Whoops, should be good now stop and building CC should be (for Right-handed) on K, not F, am i right? :-)  | ||
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CrazyFabiO
Germany28 Posts
Great feedback, gives us something to look at. The current BB priority is nothing final - just a make-shift ranking of the keys when you take into account that they're always preceded by another key. It will be revised before release. F/K, while definitely comfortable, requires you to move 2 fingers off of the homerow, compared to 4/9 and D/L. That's why the combination with D/L currently has a priority of 3, while F/K has 5. Let me know what you think about that. On the topic of combinations, we could make it more complicated by assuming that most build basic commands are given right after a base camera and selection of an SCV. And then we could assume stuff like "You won't be building many Engineering Bays at your fourth and fifth" and factor that it. I definitely think D/L is the better call compared to F/K in BB Another question related to this: What is the best method to build multiple Raxes at once lategame? Cam to your base, select some workers, scroll to free space(or shift cam to free space) and shift build the raxes? Maybe it is better to put workers in a control group, shift cam directly to free space and then build the raxes.... And one more question: Why is Recall Camera 8 on Ctrl + O and on Ctrl + K? Is this for some special situations where you can reach K better than O? Resetting the rally camera is what you have to do often, so why not take Reset Cam 8 to Ctrl + K? Thanks for your answers. :-) | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Discuss pros/cons! | ||
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CrazyFabiO
Germany28 Posts
On July 31 2014 12:31 JaKaTaK wrote: Strongly considering changing shift to create CG. Discuss pros/cons! I dont know if i get your suggestion right: You mean to use only the shift modifier + key to create CG? Where should you put Recall cam then? Create CG on shift would be good for harass CG, because you usually shift-move them to their destination. Also harassing Units might not live as long, so it would be nice to recreate their CG easier. you can create their CG easier, which . Beside this unit groups which might temporarily be "extinct", i dont see much of an advantage to give up the easy cam recall on shift. Correct me, if i misunderstood your suggestion (and please excuse my english grammar). :-) | ||
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YoTcA
Germany151 Posts
- Easier to split single units from of a CG (for a watchtower, harass, baiting mines etc), although this is already quite easy, as you only have to additionally press Ctrl after deselecting some units. - Easier to create CGs (but most of the time only used after making mistakes) - Still easy to split a group of units from a CG (just release Ctrl before recreating the group) Cons: - Racall base cam is not on Shift+key anymore. The possible modifier where it could be instead: - On ctrl+shift+key, which I find awkward, because I use the base cams a lot more often than I (re)create a CG. As there are 2 less Cams than CG this won’t be a problem for 2 of them, but those are most likely the least used CGs. - Other possibility would be to use Ctrl+key for base Cams, but using this for adding unit groups to CGs is such a nice feature, I do not want to miss it. - Or use the key without the modifier: I think this is more important for CGs, as they are used more often. - Or use Alt+key for recalling Cam positions, which would leave creating Cams to Ctrl+shift+key, imo this would be one of the best solutions, as you are setting up the base cams when the game starts and maybe adjust them once after building a base. So I do not see that big a problem in using ctrl+shift at those points. But is it possible to center on selection with Ctrl+shift? Also this would always center if you are deselecting a group of units, which is not the way I would like to have it. Maybe we could bind it individually to Ctrl+shift+key for each camera? All in all I think this could work out, but do not know if the benefit is that big. But maybe I am just ignoring something. edt: formating | ||
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Slashiepie
107 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
If we use shift for CGs we can layer the cameras under ANY KEY That means your first 4 cameras are your 4 home keys!!! Crazy, right? It might be worth moving recall camera to something else if almost all the cameras are significantly easier to press. edit: keep in mind, we could use shift for add to CG and ctrl for create, but there's more synergy by doing it the other way. We could also do something like ctrl for recall cam, shift for add to and ctrl shift for create. the main thing is, using shift for one of the control group functions. | ||
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YoTcA
Germany151 Posts
All I understood so far is that you want to use the shift modifier for create CG instead of recall camera location. And this should enable cameras an all home keys. Why can’t we add the cameras to the home row now? Is it because abilities can be used/queued with shift and the keys are already used for abilities, which would lead to a double bind on one key? Isn’t this also the case for Ctrl, as you can spread creep while holding down the Ctrl-key? And alt is used to toggle auto cast, if I am not mistaken. So is there any modifier that suppresses the ability usage and enables the binding of Recall Camera and Create Camera Location to the home row keys? | ||
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sil0r
Germany43 Posts
If the recall basecam is on the the ctrl modifier it could cause some trouble when playing fast, e.g. ctrl.-clicking your marines before splitting and hit stim you could accidentally jump to your natural and all your marines get rekt. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
Why is Recall Camera 8 on Ctrl + O and on Ctrl + K? Is this for some special situations where you can reach K better than O? Ctrl + F/K, Ctrl + 3/0, and Ctrl + 4/9 are all intended for a Creep Cam sequence which might be included in the layout, if nothing else shows up. A slightly better create Cam 8 is definitely something that could take priority over this creep sequence.Resetting the rally camera is what you have to do often, so why not take Reset Cam 8 to Ctrl + K? @YoTcA Why can’t we add the cameras to the home row now? Yes. Many abilities can be shift-queued, which means that binding an ability to no-mod+key will indirectly also take up shift+key, if we want to be able to shift-queue the ability.Is it because abilities can be used/queued with shift and the keys are already used for abilities, which would lead to a double bind on one key? Isn’t this also the case for Ctrl, as you can spread creep while holding down the Ctrl-key? No. While spreading creep using creep cams, we currently want to hold down Ctrl throughout the whole process. The creep ability is bound to no-mod, but if a camera or other global command were to be bound to Ctrl+'Key for Creep', that cam/etc. would take priority, and we would not be able to use the ability. It's not an issue because the key for creep can just be moved to a key that doesn't have interfering bindings on its modifiers.And alt is used to toggle auto cast, if I am not mistaken. Correct, but the answer is the pretty much the same as with creep: Auto-cast abilities can have alternates on an ability key that has nothing bound to the alt modifier. There are also far less auto-cast abilities that there are abilities that can be shift-queued, so this modifier is less restricted, even without alternates.@sil0r 2.0 Protoss: Ctrl+Key for Stim = Team Ressources 2.0 Random: Ctrl+key for Stim = Cam 8/Chrono2/Creep2 2.0 Zerg: Ctrl+Key for Stim = Nothing, dedicated ability 'reservation'. I haven't noticed trouble when playing myself, but neither do I play particularly fast. Not sure, but if trouble would occur, wouldn't it have occurred already, not just speaking about Stim, but abilities on the closer-by keys in general? | ||
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YoTcA
Germany151 Posts
One thing that came to my mind: I know TheCore is optimized for rapid fire injects, but using anything else than shift for Cams will conflict with camera injects, as you are not holding shift and thus are not queueing inject commands. So you have to select inject every time, but this will result into a finger repetition for one of the home row cams. | ||
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sil0r
Germany43 Posts
On August 01 2014 01:27 Beedebdoo wrote: @sil0r 2.0 Protoss: Ctrl+Key for Stim = Team Ressources 2.0 Random: Ctrl+key for Stim = Cam 8/Chrono2/Creep2 2.0 Zerg: Ctrl+Key for Stim = Nothing, dedicated ability 'reservation'. I haven't noticed trouble when playing myself, but neither do I play particularly fast. Not sure, but if trouble would occur, wouldn't it have occurred already, not just speaking about Stim, but abilities on the closer-by keys in general? I'm talking about jak's suggestion to move the recall camera away from the shift-modifier to the ctrl.-modifier. Edit: Just realized, you were also talking about it. I know there was a problem some time ago when Ctrl+I was recall for a camera and it would occur that you jump to this loctation when dropping widowmines and wanted to burrow [I] them after selecting both [WM's] with ctrl-click. | ||
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YoTcA
Germany151 Posts
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