EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 115
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
* In WOL as it is right now it inverts the fingers used for weapons and armor between vehicles and ships. It's inconsistent and confusing. * Having ship weapons on K on HOTS depends on them not reverting the change that combines the plating upgrades. Lots of things change in the beta and this could be one of them. Even if it is not, having ship weapons on M (the pinky) and nothing bound to the K in the armory is a better solution as it preserves symmetry. It's the same upgrade but for different units (infantry, vehicles, ships) so it follows that it should be pressed with the same finger. Symmetry in this case also trumps whatever speed increase might be had by having it on K as the armory is a facility you visit only a few times during a game and potentially not at all if the game doesn't go into macro mode. On the topic of consistency, is it intentional that build CC/build turret and Build Basic/9th control group are reversed between TRM and TRMM? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
The way it is now will provide the smoothest transition into HotS because the air weapons and armor stay consistent between the two with all races. If we were to switch air armor and vehicle armor, it would require the re-learning of 3 hotkeys instead of 1. Also, if you look carefully at the data document, you will see that build CC/turret are not reversed, but one is bumped up in key priority as the build basic and build advanced keys can be closer in the mouse version due to the fact that there are 2 less CGs on the keyboard in these versions. Again, the build basic and 9th control group are not "reversed" but moved up in key priority because there are closer keys for the CG-side Ability keys. I hope that all makes sense  | ||
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
As it can be seen on the first part, the pinky handles weapon upgrades for infantry and vehicles except for ships where it handles *armor*, the ring finger handles armor upgrades for both infantry and vehicles, except for ships where it handles *weapons*. There are 2 sets of upgrades that work in a certain way and 1 set that works in the complete opposite way regarding the finger usage pattern. If M handled ship weapons and K handled ship plating, it's the same as J and I for the other upgrades, only 1 row down. That's what I mean by consistency and symmetry. Regarding other races, from the data document: TRM J Ship Weapons I Vehicle (+ Ship) Plating K Vehicle Weapons M Ship Plating PRM J Ground Weapons I Ground Armor K Shield J Air Weapons I Air Armor ZRM J Evolve Ground Carapace O Evolve Melee Attacks I Evolve Missile Attacks J Evolve Flyer Attacks O Evolve Flyer Carapace In PRM K handles shield upgrades, which are essentially another form of armor upgrade, which is consistent with my proposal. In ZRM it's actually kind of weird that carapace is on J instead of one the attack upgrades. This is why I propose the following: Use M and K for ship weapons and plating respectively for WOL. This would translate to the upgrade keys be J, I and M in HOTS instead of J, I and K. It would require no transition from WOL to HOTS as the ship weapons key would be the same for both plus if they ever revert the combined plating thing, it would simply be the same as for WOL. ------------------------------- On the control group CC thing, from the data document: TRM: ' Build Basic M Command Center ' Build Basic ' Missile Turret TRMM: - Build Basic - Command Center - Build Basic M Missile Turret As it can be seen, double tap the Build Basic key gives you a turret in TRM and a CC on TRMM. CC and Turret have switched places between TRM and TRMM. In the 2nd and 3rd parts of the image I linked above can be seen that the same key that is used for Build Basic is used for a control group in the other and vice versa. I realize that 2 keys have been freed by using mouse4 and mouse5. However, the newly available keys are the period (.) and the closing bracket (]). I am confused as to why were the build keys moved around creating a situation with an orphan control group (the = key), and also inverting the order in which the Build Basic/Build Advanced appear (in TRM basic is below advanced, the opposite for TRMM). My main issue with both of these situations is the inconsistency. To give a concerete example: I spent the last week training hard to use TRM as I finally got a separate keyboard to do the keypopping and everything. I'm talking about thousands of repetitions in the hotkey trainer in order to develop the muscle memory. So I decide to try out TRMM as it should free 2 keys from control groups, awesome. What I find is 2 sets of keys that have switched places and not even obscure commands like a Fusion Core but turrets and CCs and the very build keys. Things that are used in 99% of games. My proposal: Pick one way and set both TRM and TRMM to it. I hope this helps clarify my points. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
I have recently decided to get myself off of my shitty abysmal hotkeys (I use all number keys 1-0 and have nothing remapped) and figured I might as well do it right and do something that is ideal and efficient. I'm interested in switching to TheCore, however, I primarily play HotS - is there a hotkey file/system established for this? I read in the OP that they plan to continue updating it for HotS throughout, but I'm not sure if that is actually done. Also, if anyone wants to help me switch or has any tips other than the OP, it would be much appreciated! I apologize if these questions have been answered before - a 115 page thread is quite intimidating, but I'm glad so much work has gone into this! (I'm a right handed terran with either small or medium hands - not sure). Also... unsure if I'm supposed to be using TLM or TRM - it says in the OP that it's named by your dominant hand, but all the keys in TRM seem to be on the right side of the keyboard. Is that normal? edit: never mind, seems like it is. Carry on! | ||
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
All the layouts are already usable in HotS! Indeed I think that as HotS is the future any design choices where there's a conflict between WoL and HotS the team is going to go with what works best for HotS, or at least that's the impression I get. Which totally makes sense as there's no real reason to make any compromises for a game none of us will be playing in 3 months' time. In terms of tips on changing to TheCore I'd definitely recommend have a brief test run on all the different layout sizes.. I started out using the medium one, cos I just figured I had medium sized hands, but on trying it out I found the small set-up was an order of magnitude more comfortable for me and since then I haven't looked back. Definitely worth checking them out for half an hour before making a decision given how it can be quite a long and arduous process making the switch... so best to make sure that you're putting all that effort in switching to the right thing :D Good luck Pokebunny! | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Each Layout is Optimized for the particular set of variables that comes with the layout. I don't know how to explain to you via text how this works, and why it is the way it is, but I'll try to record a video in the near future to help people understand why this is the case. Unfortunately, doing so will require me to explain the entire development process of TheCore which will take some time. Thank you for your patience in the meantime. @Pokebunny 1st of all, I got your back, check your PMs 2nd of all TheCore is HotS ready and is fully updated for the most recent patch (aside from burrow being moved to the hatchery which I will take care of shortly) I would definitely suggest starting by watching all of the quick start guide videos and applying the suggestions. I am in the middle of developing a special training program for learning TheCore fast, hit me up on skype :D | ||
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GoldHamBam
United States2 Posts
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SeveN_au
Australia1 Post
I have been experimenting with Protoss- not sure if this question has been answered but I can't figure out the optimum Warp in key. Checked in the hotkey settings and the warp key is a combination of Shift + Alt + Ctrl + F9 ? Surely there has got to be a better location for such a common keystroke. I tried to subsitute it for 9 but that takes away a unit control spot - what do you suggest to use? Thanks | ||
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repti_Lian
Czech Republic11 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Using the Warp-in key is very inefficient, will cause more errors, and provides you with less information than using a Control Group. Anything that has been bound to Shift+Alt+Ctrl+F9 we strongly suggest against using, but feel free to make changes to fit your own style after weighing the pros and cons of each method. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
Just played some 3v3s with friends trying to start the switch... all I can say is I now know what it feels like to be bronze level and legitimately unable to play any better. Definitely going to need some serious practice figuring out how to work this... | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On January 19 2013 07:38 Pokebunny wrote: Okay, holy fuck >.> Just played some 3v3s with friends trying to start the switch... all I can say is I now know what it feels like to be bronze level and legitimately unable to play any better. Definitely going to need some serious practice figuring out how to work this... The first 20-30 games are god awful, and probably even worse for a player like yourself who has played a ton of games at a very high level and high speed compared to 99% of the other people learning TheCore. My suggestion is to just fight through it and give it time. Use the hotkey trainer map, and within a week you'll be feeling alright. Within a month you should be getting back up to speed. Within 3-4 months it should feel way better than standard used to feel. It will be a very frustrating process, but totally worth it! I am a mid-masters player, so significantly worse than you are but I had played 3000 games on standard before switching, so I'm assuming your experience will be somewhat similar to mine. I think it's awesome that you're giving TheCore a shot though!! It is truly the best hotkey layout out there if you're willing to put in the time and effort to learn it | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On January 19 2013 07:38 Pokebunny wrote: Okay, holy fuck >.> Just played some 3v3s with friends trying to start the switch... all I can say is I now know what it feels like to be bronze level and legitimately unable to play any better. Definitely going to need some serious practice figuring out how to work this... Yup, that was my exact feeling. Suddenly I understood how overwhelmed bronze leaguers must feel all the time  You'll be able to handle all of the basic actions within a week; it's just learning to chain together sequences efficiently that takes the time. Stick with it. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On January 19 2013 08:22 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: Yup, that was my exact feeling. Suddenly I understood how overwhelmed bronze leaguers must feel all the time You'll be able to handle all of the basic actions within a week; it's just learning to chain together sequences efficiently that takes the time. Stick with it. Hahahah yeah... that was so horrible >.< I probably won't have any big matches til MLG in two months, so I'm hoping that it is second nature by then and improves my play. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Ishmak
Australia5 Posts
On January 18 2013 11:04 Pokebunny wrote: Also, if anyone wants to help me switch or has any tips other than the OP, it would be much appreciated! I apologize if these questions have been answered before - a 115 page thread is quite intimidating, but I'm glad so much work has gone into this! Hi Pokebunny - while Jak is working on creating a method to learn the Core super fast I suggest following (loosely in your case perhaps) TheStaircase (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374400). While it is aimed at helping BSGP macro better I have found it a cool way to learn the new hotkey layout. Other than that play a lot of games Don't forget to tilt your keyboard!  | ||
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TheAngryZergling
United States387 Posts
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On January 19 2013 11:15 Ishmak wrote: Hi Pokebunny - while Jak is working on creating a method to learn the Core super fast I suggest following (loosely is your case perhaps) TheStaircase (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374400). While it is aimed at helping BSGP macro better I have found it a cool way to learn the new hotkey layout. Other than that play a lot of games Don't forget to tilt your keyboard! I wouldn't recommend TheStaircase in his situation. Once you're at a Grandmasters level you should know what works best for you when it comes to training, especially in regards to mechanics, and I have a feeling such a system would be way too slow/constricting for his goals. I learned the hotkey setup unit by unit and concept by concept, but there's no need to use a tool as standardized as TheStaircase. | ||
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