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Thanks for great job 
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I'm using thsi build only in my TvP's since redbull battlegrounds (im master terran) and this strat is sooo amazing!
I highly recommend it!
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Death to the protoss scum. LONG LIVE THE DOMINION.
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Guys, you have to be careful if you can't trade effectively with this style, since if you don't you have a ton of supply in MMM that you can't use for Ghosts and Vikings, so you have to do a lot of aggression to make sure you trade with the Protoss as much as possible so you have supply remaining to get Ghosts and Vikings, while not being way behind on army size.
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On June 16 2012 09:52 Fencer710 wrote:
Guys, you have to be careful if you can't trade effectively with this style, since if you don't you have a ton of supply in MMM that you can't use for Ghosts and Vikings, so you have to do a lot of aggression to make sure you trade with the Protoss as much as possible so you have supply remaining to get Ghosts and Vikings, while not being way behind on army size.
Good point. In particular, try and gun for Protoss gas units early on. Kill Sentries and Colossi, because you will have Medivacs and Bio which shits all over Zealot/Stalker in almost any amounts. The less gas units they have, the less AoE is there to damage your bioball.
I would also recommend getting either the Ghost Academy or your second Starport immediately after making the natural response to whatever tech you see at the first push. For example, if he already has Colossi, drop the Ghost Academy just after you add the second Starport, because you KNOW the Templar switch is coming, and if you ALREADY have Moebius Reactor done when you need to switch, you're golden.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus.
My composition is usually very zealot heavy, with only 3-6 stalkers, and i wouldnt dream of having less than 5-6 gates before this hits as otherwise it seems you would immediately die to the massive amount of DPS without actuly killing anything in his army, and i always open 15 nex, 14gate/17gasnexpyloncore, MC style 1gate expand. My average unspent resources is better than average vs the opponents i face and i often reach this point in the game without hitting a supply block, so i am not sure what is going wrong. Surely i should be able to scout this with an obs at 40-50 supply and hold by something other than the skin of my teeth (assuming i hold) while being a base down? I feel like there is some key i am missing, because this is extremely painful to hold, even without good micro from terran.
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On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus
Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements.
In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack.
In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this:
1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step.
2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs.
3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings.
After this, play a very normal PvT lategame.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame.
Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack?
Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks.
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On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks.
I would suggest not cutting probes at all. It's very possible to go Gate -> gas -> Nexus -> Core -> Robo as a very standard 1-gate FE. From there, I would suggest 2 additional gates, a second gas, and throw down your Robotics Bay by the 7-8 minute mark IF you are not going for heavy 3-gate pressure. After starting Colossi and Thermal Lance, get some Sentries to supplement your ability to defend and go up to at least 6 gates so you can get a third base and upgrades as your next step. In addition, grab at least 2 Observers to keep an eye on the Terran forces (a really great technique is assigning one Observer to sit in the Terran's base and another to rally to his Medivacs to check for drops and the initial move-out). You need the economy and the Terran will not be attacking before 9-11 minutes, so crank out those probes.
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hw the hell do you counter blink stalk build with this? even if you know its coming
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On June 23 2012 03:28 AcesAnoka wrote:
hw the hell do you counter blink stalk build with this? even if you know its coming
What map? I find cloud kingdom to be the hardest. The main rule with holding these is to just last until stim and medivacs are out. Pull scvs if you need to engage and try to snipe the obs to give yourself some time. You need medivacs but having an army when they pop is equally important, so add on some extra rax if you need to (you probably will). Also if you want you can place a bunker in range of their blink, so that you can stall a tiny bit longer. It's still really hard though.
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On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks.
youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning.
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On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning.
thats why the advice hes responding to clearly says to delay the third until after the pressure is defended.
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A note to Terrans using this build:
If you push out at normal times and discover that he has a significant Sentry count AND Colossus already out, you DO NOT have to engage, unless he has also taken a third base before you get there. If he has that fast of a third, you attack it. One of two things happens: either you kill the third and go home satisfied that yours is up to defend a probably 3-Colossus all-in push, or he tries to engage you to save the third, doesn't have enough because he went for the fast base AND tech, and dies.
If, on the other hand, he doesn't yet have his third done, and he went Sentry -> fast Colossus, you should probably back off unless he's positioned badly. Immediately drop Starport two and go into heavy Viking production. Try to use Scans and the Factory to see if it's a heavy attack (in which case keep making Vikings) or a fake-out into third and tech switch (in which case, get Ghosts quickly and take a fourth base). Fast Colossi pushes can wreck you VERY easily if you don't see them coming. If the Factory isn't there early enough, you can Scan to avoid walking into a trap.
Alternatively, wait for 4 Medivacs, and then drop him WHILE hitting the front. Try to kill a lot of Probes, snipe a tech building or two, but don't lose everything for that cause.
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I Realy love this build! Got me a 73% winrate vs toss on ladder in gold leaugue.
I like to drop 1 medivac in main minderal line and atack with the other medivac up front at the nat
if theere are no collusus its usualy a win. have been loosing vs DT,s and 4 gate's. But maybe thats because im not good at scouting.
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On June 23 2012 03:43 Seiferz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:28 AcesAnoka wrote:
hw the hell do you counter blink stalk build with this? even if you know its coming What map? I find cloud kingdom to be the hardest. The main rule with holding these is to just last until stim and medivacs are out. Pull scvs if you need to engage and try to snipe the obs to give yourself some time. You need medivacs but having an army when they pop is equally important, so add on some extra rax if you need to (you probably will). Also if you want you can place a bunker in range of their blink, so that you can stall a tiny bit longer. It's still really hard though.
Antiga, guy just came in, sniped my tech lab with stim and i only had marines. This build seems so damn vulnerable to it
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On June 23 2012 03:57 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning. thats why the advice hes responding to clearly says to delay the third until after the pressure is defended.
yea and i ask for replay because it seems theres something fundamentally wron gwith what he does and he would get more help with a replay, im not saying this to be a douche
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On June 23 2012 21:13 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:57 nath wrote:On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning. thats why the advice hes responding to clearly says to delay the third until after the pressure is defended. yea and i ask for replay because it seems theres something fundamentally wron gwith what he does and he would get more help with a replay, im not saying this to be a douche
Since this is a discussion thread about the TvP strategy, it's also probably not the best place to be going for help with one specific PvT game. The advice I gave is very general, and highly dependent on map and other factors. It would be better to submit a general [H] topic if you want to submit specific replays for analysis.
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On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote:
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning.
Um, not sure if it was obvious (it should be to a high level protoss, who i was targetting with my post?) but i was referring to getting 1-1 OR a colossus, with 3gate robo > doubleforge (and especially expand before added gates) being a different opening and midgame entirely (with no colossi in sight), there should be a thread or two referencing creatorprime etc with it. Im 60% win vs half low masters right now, im bad but not that bad.
Edit: Maybe not so obvious, but thats what i meant. Thats how i talk about the matchup with a few friends, and i figured the meaning would get across
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Hi guys,
Would the same advantages apply to using this is TvT? I like to 1 rax FE into 3 rax + medivac play in TvT. I control the watchtowers and if they go mech try and get a third before they do and force them to stay in base. I get combat shield first as well. I think that the faster potential third or ability to add on additional raxes sooner might work just as well in TVT. Is it me, or is this just a more efficient way to 1 rax FE into more bio in any matchup?
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EPT
