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On July 04 2012 10:08 Cyro wrote:
You can get the first warp from a 4gate at around ~5:22 if you are really sharp about it, and you can also get 1 base DT's warped before 6:00 IIRC
IF you cut literally everything else. There's no way that a pre-6:00 DT attack should EVER work if your opponent actually scouts. You will have almost no other units, with no follow-up tech, and no economy. It is cheese in its most coin-flippy form.
Same with a 4-gate. 4-gate is such a easily-telegraphed build. All good Terrans will build at least one additional Bunker at 5:00 if they see no Protoss expansion, sometimes 2. Since 4-gate really needs a good 2 rounds to get through a typical Terran defense, there's more than enough time to hold it.
My opinion remains that this build can easily deflect any of the common Protoss all-ins before 7-8 minutes if you scout correctly. The minerals are all there, and the ability to scout on time is there. It's up to you to make it work.
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How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one?
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On July 05 2012 04:59 ff7legend wrote:
How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one?
When you push out and scan his ramp to see if you can push up or drop instead, you will see if he go HT. If you do, just drop a ghost academy. If you see collossus, lift a reactor barrack and build a second starport at it's reactor and build a new reactor with your barrack.
If he have HT with storm before you push out. It means he tech super fast and you will probably have more bases (third up vs 2), better upgrades (1-0 done, 1-1 on its way) and bigger army than him. In most cases if he go HT he probably only have archons when you push out. You have time to get out your ghosts and if there is a forced fight before that, you can easily micro against 2-4 storms.
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On July 05 2012 04:59 ff7legend wrote:
How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one?
Xertion has good advice. Let me also add this:
When you're moving out the first time, you should be doing it in concert with a scouting Factory. If you see NO Colossi (notwithstanding a possible hidden Robo Bay), and at least one Forge, you can actually already drop your Ghost Academy, because he's more likely to go Templar with a primarily Gateway army. Sometimes you can get a read on this as early as 7-8 minutes, and already be planning when to drop the Academy. The logic behind this is that a Protoss that fast expands and doesn't get fast Colossi BUT gets 1 or 2 Forges for upgrades MUST be relying on Sentries and some mix of Gateway units very heavily, otherwise he dies straight up to a normal bio push. Therefore, it's more consistent for him to go into Templar before Colossi, which means you can preemptively get a Ghost Academy and be forestalling any HT play while you take your third.
Possible scouting tells for HT play even if you don't see the Templar Archives:
- 5+ Gates and an early third
- early double Forge with no Robotics Bay
- no Observer spotting in your base and no Gateway all-in (this is a BIG one, because 99 times out of 100, they really want that advance warning of your attacks; if they don't have one anywhere you can bet that gas has gotten turbo-dumped into something else more pressing, like Storm)
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It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better.
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On July 05 2012 07:18 zefreak wrote:
It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better.
I think Bomber's build will work in all match-ups, More Marauders for Protross, Tanks for Terran and marines for Zerg.
the most important thing for both builds is 50 scv's at 10 minutes. It allows you to build more stuff !!!!
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On July 05 2012 07:18 zefreak wrote:
It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better.
I would not recommend this build in every matchup. The reason this build is so strong against Protoss is that it is optimized to align with the natural timings of the matchup and give you the best chance for advantage against similar FE styles of play. It is NOT designed with the expansion and tech timings of either Terran or Zerg opponents in mind.
The main weakness versus Zerg is the way the two races interact. Although you can drop Bunkers early on with impunity to remain safe from things like Roach rushes and Zergling attacks, it lacks the correctly timed punch to really do much damage to the modern Zerg economy (yes, you're hitting between 10-11, but many Zergs will preemptively create enough Banelings to forestall a 10 minute attack due to its reliability in slowing Lair tech armies down). Versus Zerg this build would become a strategy that is almost entirely dependent on how good your anti-baneling micro is. Although it's possible, I think there are better ways to play bio in TvZ (try a 14CC into 2x Rax with a follow up of Reactor Hellions and an additional Rax for a strong Bio + Hellion stim timing attack which is safe from many conventional Zerg all-ins), and it doesn't get the double ups that modern TvZ really wants at an early enough timing.
In TvT, the main difference between this build and the sort of thing you want to play is the presence of the second Tech Lab, which I would recommend swapping for a Reactor if you play this TvT. It's going to be very vulnerable to Siege Tank all-ins because of how the add-on timings work, although it will completely shut down Banshee cheese due to the E-bay timing. Again, while you CAN play a TvT bio style using this build, it has to change so much to optimize for it that you might as well be doing a different build (for example, a Thorzain-style 2x gas with 2 in each to maximize minerals while getting all the necessary infrastructure).
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On July 05 2012 10:50 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 07:18 zefreak wrote:
It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better. I would not recommend this build in every matchup. The reason this build is so strong against Protoss is that it is optimized to align with the natural timings of the matchup and give you the best chance for advantage against similar FE styles of play. It is NOT designed with the expansion and tech timings of either Terran or Zerg opponents in mind. The main weakness versus Zerg is the way the two races interact. Although you can drop Bunkers early on with impunity to remain safe from things like Roach rushes and Zergling attacks, it lacks the correctly timed punch to really do much damage to the modern Zerg economy (yes, you're hitting between 10-11, but many Zergs will preemptively create enough Banelings to forestall a 10 minute attack due to its reliability in slowing Lair tech armies down). Versus Zerg this build would become a strategy that is almost entirely dependent on how good your anti-baneling micro is. Although it's possible, I think there are better ways to play bio in TvZ (try a 14CC into 2x Rax with a follow up of Reactor Hellions and an additional Rax for a strong Bio + Hellion stim timing attack which is safe from many conventional Zerg all-ins), and it doesn't get the double ups that modern TvZ really wants at an early enough timing. In TvT, the main difference between this build and the sort of thing you want to play is the presence of the second Tech Lab, which I would recommend swapping for a Reactor if you play this TvT. It's going to be very vulnerable to Siege Tank all-ins because of how the add-on timings work, although it will completely shut down Banshee cheese due to the E-bay timing. Again, while you CAN play a TvT bio style using this build, it has to change so much to optimize for it that you might as well be doing a different build (for example, a Thorzain-style 2x gas with 2 in each to maximize minerals while getting all the necessary infrastructure).
Thanks for the response. I see what you mean about other builds being better but the 1raxFE 2 gas build I was using suffers from the same flaws (in tvz at least). I will definitely look into the Thorzain build but my multitasking (between army control and macro) is pretty poor any I'm afraid the builds you recommend will be too much for me currently.
Really appreciate the response
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Is this build still considered viable?
This thread has been really inactive for over 6 days, that's why im curious.
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On July 13 2012 05:22 Thylacine wrote:
Is this build still considered viable?
This thread has been really inactive for over 6 days, that's why im curious.
I'm hoping it's inactive because people are using it and there's nothing too much to add. :D
I've seen it used frequently in pro streams as well as tournament matches, myself. I run this build almost every single TvP I get on ladder, and Protoss is by far my strongest matchup right now (usually hovering between 65-70%). I've seen no direct counter builds to this that aren't beaten by good scouting, game sense, and appropriate army control. While this build doesn't give you an auto-win edge, it gives VERY good chances to win if you outclass your opponent by even a little. Think of it like a closed-position opening in chess. While the fireworks aren't necessarily there because of the solid-ness of the play, the very best players can make magic happen.
As of right now, the strongest two responses I have seen to this build are: 2-base fast Colossi preparing to take a third, and Parting-style 3-Nexus with lots of Sentries and as quick as Storm as possible while maintaining defense. Unless the Protoss player gets VERY lucky, DTs almost auto-lose to this, and 4-6 Gate attacks are a joke as long as your scouting and preparation are decent.
In short, it's solid, it works, and there's no reason to ditch it even if you find something a little bit to more liking. This is the perfect build for a game 1 or 2 of a Best-of-X when you need to play a solid macro-style game that squeezes your opponent in a python grip of perfect play.
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I use this build in both TvP and TvZ (I play bio vs zerg) and it is awesome.
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Sigh. I just can't make it work.
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It work´s really well for me. It´s just really good to have 5 rax this early. Your possibility to deny a fast 3rd is really high and you can even have a fast 3rd and fast ghost tech aggainst ht builds. Aggainst a toss with 2 gas i also do the build with 4 rax instead of 3 and i´m able to easily hold of every allin a protoss throws at me. I don´t see a reason why you should play the normal 3 rax with 2 gas build anymore.
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Yeah I understand how sick it is. I've seen the replays and it looks fucking good, but i've tried to make this BO work by playing with myself over 20 games while following this build but it always ends up with me having rly low supply and shit,
I'm doing something really wrong, but it aint supply blocks, lol.
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On July 14 2012 03:42 Thylacine wrote:
Yeah I understand how sick it is. I've seen the replays and it looks fucking good, but i've tried to make this BO work by playing with myself over 20 games while following this build but it always ends up with me having rly low supply and shit,
I'm doing something really wrong, but it aint supply blocks, lol.
Upload a replay and I can take a look at it, I've had great success with this build
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On July 13 2012 12:26 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:22 Thylacine wrote:
Is this build still considered viable?
This thread has been really inactive for over 6 days, that's why im curious. I'm hoping it's inactive because people are using it and there's nothing too much to add. :D I've seen it used frequently in pro streams as well as tournament matches, myself. I run this build almost every single TvP I get on ladder, and Protoss is by far my strongest matchup right now (usually hovering between 65-70%). I've seen no direct counter builds to this that aren't beaten by good scouting, game sense, and appropriate army control. While this build doesn't give you an auto-win edge, it gives VERY good chances to win if you outclass your opponent by even a little. Think of it like a closed-position opening in chess. While the fireworks aren't necessarily there because of the solid-ness of the play, the very best players can make magic happen. As of right now, the strongest two responses I have seen to this build are: 2-base fast Colossi preparing to take a third, and Parting-style 3-Nexus with lots of Sentries and as quick as Storm as possible while maintaining defense. Unless the Protoss player gets VERY lucky, DTs almost auto-lose to this, and 4-6 Gate attacks are a joke as long as your scouting and preparation are decent. In short, it's solid, it works, and there's no reason to ditch it even if you find something a little bit to more liking. This is the perfect build for a game 1 or 2 of a Best-of-X when you need to play a solid macro-style game that squeezes your opponent in a python grip of perfect play.
I've been using this build a lot as well, largely because of this thread and the day[9] daily exploring it. I just had a question about how to deal with protosses who sit on sentries at their natural, stalkers on the drop lanes, and then get double robo with 5-6 collossi (as opposed to going for the quick third). I can upload the replay, if it would be helpful, but I felt pretty frustrated when the Protoss player claimed "Double robo, hard counter." I just want to be sure it was because I was playing poorly (low diamond), not because of the Protoss build. Has anyone else here seen a double robo response?
Edit: Regarding how Bomber deals with a two-base Collossi all-in, is the answer just bunkers and then position the army well?
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You can hold off collo allins with this build, when you are in a defensive position and start producing vikings after your 3rd or 4th medivac. With your first 2 you should push out and see what tech he is choosing and if you see collo start viking production and add a 2nd starport. With a good spread and correct viking positioning you can defend yourself and go for an easy win afterwards, because you have double starport + 5 raxes production.
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How do you feel about this vs Double Forge styles but incorporating a faster colossus? I usually have 1/1 /w my first colossus /without range upgrade at about 10:50, so with enough force fields, I should be able to keep the front attack away until then. Also, I always hover stalkers in main until I'm feeling safe from drops.
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Regarding double robo, you should be able to scout that very easily. Like the build says, drop whatever tech is needed as you move - i.e. second Starport in case of double robo. With the five earlier rax, plus getting a second Starport and cranking Vikings, he'll be WAY behind if he sticks on Colossi and doesn't either all-in or grab a third as quickly as possible. Build your Bunkers, hold off the one huge attack, and play out your advantage.
Re: the double forge question... I inherently mistrust any opening that doesn't go for either Sentry defense or heavy pressure as a countermeasure to FE bio play, but I can't be sure. It seems risky but okay. My caution would be that double ups and Colossi will not leave you enough gas to do the necessary tech-switch if he gets Vikings promptly, so manage that midgame phase very carefully.
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On July 05 2012 06:41 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 04:59 ff7legend wrote:
How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one? Xertion has good advice. Let me also add this: When you're moving out the first time, you should be doing it in concert with a scouting Factory. If you see NO Colossi (notwithstanding a possible hidden Robo Bay), and at least one Forge, you can actually already drop your Ghost Academy, because he's more likely to go Templar with a primarily Gateway army. Sometimes you can get a read on this as early as 7-8 minutes, and already be planning when to drop the Academy. The logic behind this is that a Protoss that fast expands and doesn't get fast Colossi BUT gets 1 or 2 Forges for upgrades MUST be relying on Sentries and some mix of Gateway units very heavily, otherwise he dies straight up to a normal bio push. Therefore, it's more consistent for him to go into Templar before Colossi, which means you can preemptively get a Ghost Academy and be forestalling any HT play while you take your third. Possible scouting tells for HT play even if you don't see the Templar Archives: - 5+ Gates and an early third - early double Forge with no Robotics Bay - no Observer spotting in your base and no Gateway all-in (this is a BIG one, because 99 times out of 100, they really want that advance warning of your attacks; if they don't have one anywhere you can bet that gas has gotten turbo-dumped into something else more pressing, like Storm)
Thanks for writing this great guide! i'm having some troubles with early HT play. When i arrive toss's base i saw 3-4 HT and tons of zealots with storm ready. toss doesn't have a third. With his defensive position, if i push up the ramp i will got storm in a clump. Also he has 1 HT ready for feedbac in his main. Should i just go home in this case? i found it not effective to fight against this without ghosts.
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EPT
