EPT[G][D] Bomber's FE into 3-rax, 1-gas opening TvP - Page 7
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On July 27 2012 00:50 -Aura- wrote: Using this build I've experienced a lot of trouble with blink and warp prism allins. Because you are spending so much on infrastructure and bunkers, and you only really have marines and scvs for a long time, pressure the nullifies your bunkers is really hard to hold off. Especially on maps like shakuras, I always seem to lose to these allins. Any advice? -If you scout 1 base 2 gas, get more Marauders than you would normally while delaying Medivacs a bit. -Build at least 1 bunker in main and 1 bunker in your natural. Keep SCV's ready to repair in case of blink/warp in in your main. -Don't delay Stim if you think he's going Blink, but if you think he's going for 4Gate WP then get a fast Combat Shields, 10 HP means 1 more Zealot/Stalker shot that your Marines survive, which is a lot early on. -Against 4Gate WP you can push out as soon as you have Medivacs+Stim and kill him, but if you didn't snipe the prism keep some units in your base. -I don't know about against Blinkstalkers, theorycrafting maybe a Marine drop to kill Probes while defending at home? I do know that it's common to transition into Stalker/Colossus after going Blinkstalkers all-in if it doesn't outright kill you, so going Marauder/Viking/Medivac straight away with only a few Marines is pretty good. Don't get a second E-bay unless you took very little damage, you can't afford the gas. Edit: Also, don't get a reactor vs Blinkstalkers until after you stabilize, you need the Marines and it's expensive! A replay would also be nice if you still have trouble.  | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
On July 27 2012 01:41 Fencar wrote: -If you scout 1 base 2 gas, get more Marauders than you would normally while delaying Medivacs a bit. -Build at least 1 bunker in main and 1 bunker in your natural. Keep SCV's ready to repair in case of blink/warp in in your main. -Don't delay Stim if you think he's going Blink, but if you think he's going for 4Gate WP then get a fast Combat Shields, 10 HP means 1 more Zealot/Stalker shot that your Marines survive, which is a lot early on. -Against 4Gate WP you can push out as soon as you have Medivacs+Stim and kill him, but if you didn't snipe the prism keep some units in your base. -I don't know about against Blinkstalkers, theorycrafting maybe a Marine drop to kill Probes while defending at home? I do know that it's common to transition into Stalker/Colossus after going Blinkstalkers all-in if it doesn't outright kill you, so going Marauder/Viking/Medivac straight away with only a few Marines is pretty good. Don't get a second E-bay unless you took very little damage, you can't afford the gas. Edit: Also, don't get a reactor vs Blinkstalkers until after you stabilize, you need the Marines and it's expensive! A replay would also be nice if you still have trouble. Thanks. The problem is that even with a bunker in the main and 2 in the natural I don't have enough units. Once he's in the main there is no one position that can keep him from gjust going around the bunker and killing addons or supply depots. If I leave the bunker and attack him with all my stuff he will fight while saving low health stalkers with blink, knocking down my unit count. Since he doesn't lose stalkers but I am losing units, AND he continues to warpin more stalkers, it snowballs into a situation where he can just straight up kill my bunkers. I'll get you a replay when I get the chance. | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
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djtopa
United Kingdom59 Posts
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
On August 08 2012 18:40 djtopa wrote: Guys, I'm using this build and it's very nice. What I normally do is push when 2 medivacs come out at around 10:30 ish. By this time I normally have 4-5 marauders 30 ish marines and 2 medivacs. However I have trouble with 2 base colossus allin. Protoss can have 2 colo with thermal lance plus gateway units with a few sentries, zealots and stalkers at your front door, by the 10-11 minute mark and I just don't see how you can defeat that force with yours. What's the best response ? How do you scout 2 base colo allin ? I feel like bunkers won't cut it because they can be fired at from long range. You won't have vikings because you made 2 medivacs. Thanks At 10 minutes? Can you post the replay? | ||
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djtopa
United Kingdom59 Posts
Kranten, here is my replay. TvP 2 Base Colossus allin I had a few supply blocks, but I think my macro up to the 10 minute mark is not terrible. I didn't scout however. My engagement was horrible. I should have waited for the medivacs before engaging. But I feel that I won't have time till the 2 vikings come out. Any ideas ? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On August 10 2012 06:23 djtopa wrote: Kranten, here is my replay. TvP 2 Base Colossus allin I had a few supply blocks, but I think my macro up to the 10 minute mark is not terrible. I didn't scout however. My engagement was horrible. I should have waited for the medivacs before engaging. But I feel that I won't have time till the 2 vikings come out. Any ideas ? If you look at the Bomber replays, the game on Ohana illustrates how to deal with this. The thing with the Colossus all-in is that it needs to hit with 2-3 Colossus, which usually hits at about 11-12 minutes if everyone is properly macroing. Notice in the Ohana game that Bomber keeps all of his initial Bunkers until he's sure whether or not he's facing an all-in. Once he sees the Colossus play, he keeps his 2 Medivac force in the field, gets more Bunkers, and Vikings. He barely finishes the Bunkers in time, and as the all-in hits, Bomber hits him from behind with the Medivac force, taking out all the Colossi. Once that's done, it doesn't matter how many gates the Protoss has, he can't break the four Bunkers plus continuous reinforcements and Medivacs, and then Bomber is so far ahead that it's GG. If the Protoss moves out earlier than 2-3 Colossi (say with just 1), your macro (if done properly) should mean you have enough Marine/Marauder to focus down the threatening unit and clean up the rest with SCVs if need be. You'll be taking a third earlier or at the same time as him plus you've killed his big push, which means you'll be even or ahead in economy, and small numbers of Gateway units get mauled by MMM. There's almost no way for the Protoss to win that situation if you play it out properly. | ||
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deathabene
Denmark83 Posts
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woodstock006
United States16 Posts
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
that is the reason, i know day9 was talking like 1 hour how great this build is and how smart it is to delay that gas, and even did some maths about how much extra minerals he gets for this and so on..... but trust me, the only reason he does it is because it would delay his economoy slightly....so overall, just a tiny little adjustment to the most standard build in tvp out there, nothing new, nothing revolutionary i mean no where near does he get 300 extra minerals (for 4/5 th barracks) by delaying that secodn gas. The really smart thing is to get this 4/5 th barracks up so early. it doesn t matter too much how fast you get your second gas, you could also get it earlier and then put ouf 1 guy ouf of each gas to only have 4 scvs mining, this will allow you a faster stim and starport while still getting some extra minerals, which help to get the 300 minerals for the extra barracks....all just slight variations. but i like the 2 guys mining at each gas. as well you should take into consideration that the delayed stim and medivacs can be very taff because there are certain timing pushes that hit exactly around the time where your stim usually finishes (like a 6 gate for example or immortal sentry pushes and some mass gate warpprism play where he warps in tons of zealots in your main), having stim or not having stim, can decide about win or loose there sometimes, as well can the delayed starport hurt you if your facing a 2 base colosi all in....just saying this should be mentioned....doesn t meant hat build overall is not good ( i use it most of time, with some little personal adjustments) | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 10 2012 09:44 uzushould wrote: The really smart thing is to get this 4/5 th barracks up so early. it doesn t matter too much how fast you get your second gas, you could also get it earlier and then put ouf 1 guy ouf of each gas to only have 4 scvs mining, this will allow you a faster stim and starport while still getting some extra minerals, which help to get the 300 minerals for the extra barracks....all just slight variations. but i like the 2 guys mining at each gas. as well you should take into consideration that the delayed stim and medivacs can be very taff because there are certain timing pushes that hit exactly around the time where your stim usually finishes (like a 6 gate for example or immortal sentry pushes and some mass gate warpprism play where he warps in tons of zealots in your main), having stim or not having stim, can decide about win or loose there sometimes, as well can the delayed starport hurt you if your facing a 2 base colosi all in....just saying this should be mentioned....doesn t meant hat build overall is not good ( i use it most of time, with some little personal adjustments) I think you're overlooking some of the importance of the late 2nd gas: does it give you 300 extra minerals? Maybe not, but what it CAN permit is a second Bunker earlier on that doesn't force as big a deviation in your build (for example if you get 4-gated, 3-gate robo'd, or face a Blinkstalker all-in). Not only are you saving the 75 minerals to build the geyser, you get over 40 extra minerals per minute from the SCV that isn't building that Refinery. Add to that the fact that if you get that later gas, you can start your E-bay nice and early because you are constantly building SCVs and getting even more ahead on mineral outcome, and you can deflect DTs with ease by Turrets. Think of it this way: you gain the initial bonus of a little over 40 minerals per minute from the extra SCV that isn't building the Refinery, plus, your mineral outcome keeps increasing as you build SCVs out of 2 bases. That easily adds up to a spike of minerals that permits the early E-bay, a well-timed Factory, and other things. At this point, I've played well over 100 games using this build, and in my personal experience, adjusting things like the refinery timings actually throws off a bunch of other small things in the build like when you can get the E-bay, etc. Your Stim is not delayed enough to matter if you are scouting properly (I've held many 6-gate attacks with this build, ditto for Immortal/Sentry plays) for the common all-ins. If you want a great example of how this build SHOULD deal with a 2-base Colossi all-in, check out the Ohana game versus Squirtle in the guide. All Bomber needs is the cue of no third and the flash of a Colossus, and he starts extra Bunkers, grabs as many Vikings as possible, a second Starport for reinforcement, and proceeds to crush the attack with strong frontal defense and a flank from the back. Not to say that adjusting isn't valid! You should feel free to adjust however works best for you; however, this guide is going to remain about Bomber's specific build (which, if anyone saw IEM, has not changed in the slightest in the past few months), and so it will continue to be 1 gas initially, delayed 2nd gas. | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
i just wanted to point out that the delayed stim can cause some problems in certain circumstances, as well as the delayed factory and you will build scvs constantly with both builds, so i don t know why you think you ll gain an advantage in eco if you delay the gas at all. it doesnt matter what expand you play, if you see him 6 gate or 3 gate pressure or colos all in, you should either way be able to hold it and be ahead after. The question is more what is bomber trying to archive and where is he cuting corners? The answer is, he delays his stim and medivacs for a better production a little bit later on, THAT is the important point. If you think about it, you ll see that his agression starts a little bit later but will be stronger. So where could this be good or bad, well if hes goin colossi the stronger but later agression is probably better more often then not. But if you for example try to hit a timing to put on the agression on the toss before he finishes his storm, the earlier agression can be better. The thing is, bomber knows his opponents, and has an idea what they will play a lot of the time, so he can specificly use this build to punish a toss goin for storm for example. what i m trying to say, this build is not overall better then the usual 1 rax fe, you can just archive slightly different timings, and that, if used correctly, can be VERY strong. But this is just so deep we will never be able to get and advantage out of this on purpose. What i m trying to say is, on ladder against rnd players it won t make much of a difference, sometimes this sometimes other bos are better to counter what your oponent is doin, its kinda a question of luck, as i say, this build is overall not "better" then the usual one, just in certain cases it is (just like the normal 1 rax fe is) | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
I feel the main problem is that I have NO WAY of harassing Protoss early on, which means they will be sitting there with 1stalk, 1sent, 1zeal macroing like crazy, and I can't do anything about it. By the time 10:00 hits, when I have medivacs out, they have a 3rd base and either coloss/storm/charge and I'm just starting to get marauders... Each protoss opponent I ask advice from says I didn't harass enough, with drops... but each time I drop, it seems a couple stalkers around the base or high templar with feedback stops it. I feel my old 2 rax (reactor before tech) with a 7:00 stim timing push did better than this build, even though it still had a poor win rate. Any idea how terran can harass early on? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 17 2012 02:36 RukKus wrote: This build helped me a lot ... in ways I didn't expect. I've begun using it with slight modifications against Zerg, and my winrate has shot up to 55% from 20%. However, my winrate versus protoss went from 50% down to 30%. I feel the main problem is that I have NO WAY of harassing Protoss early on, which means they will be sitting there with 1stalk, 1sent, 1zeal macroing like crazy, and I can't do anything about it. By the time 10:00 hits, when I have medivacs out, they have a 3rd base and either coloss/storm/charge and I'm just starting to get marauders... Each protoss opponent I ask advice from says I didn't harass enough, with drops... but each time I drop, it seems a couple stalkers around the base or high templar with feedback stops it. I feel my old 2 rax (reactor before tech) with a 7:00 stim timing push did better than this build, even though it still had a poor win rate. Any idea how terran can harass early on? Even if Protoss goes for a super quick third base, they cannot macro up BOTH the high tech units and the unit count that they might want. Watch the Bomber/MC game on Entombed in the OP: MC goes for a sub-5:00 third base, and all Bomber does is push with 4 Medivacs and a super heavy count of Marine/Marauder, and he rolls him. Remember that this build gets a relatively quick third and a very high amount of units. Although a Protoss who goes for a sub-5:00 third will have a good economy, it's very hard for him to get up enough Gateway units to survive a heavy midgame push. As you take your third, keep adding Barracks, and throw down whatever tech is necessary. If the Protoss is Gateway/HT, grab Ghosts, and just deny any fourth base. Ditto for Colossi, except throw down the extra Starport and get Vikings first instead of Ghosts. This style of play is macro-oriented, and designed to put pressure on Protoss thirds via frontal attacks, and prevent a fourth base from going down. Although 'harassment and drops' used to be the name of the game in TvP, it's not as much of a necessity anymore. You get so many Barracks so fast with this build that you can simply keep macroing and (assuming you engage correctly) start to take fights with Protoss if you have the necessary tech. The biggest piece of advice I would give to any Terran player trying this or similar styles is to develop patience. If you don't have any Vikings and see a decent Sentry count plus 1 or 2 Colossi, just don't engage. Keep an eye on his economy and get the units you need. Ditto for High Templar. Engagements are NEVER a necessity until you are backed into a corner. Against Protoss, don't engage unless you have the composition or position that you really want. You WILL lose games with this style as you try to adjust and get used to a more lategame, macro-heavy style of TvP because engagements are so important. Try not to get frustrated and study the replays to see where the losses are coming from. No EMPs hit? Did you scout the tech choice? Fast third base that you didn't target with a frontal attack? Remember not to charge in, assuming Stim + Medivacs will get everything done. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
In my continued attempt to climb the ladder, I'm paying more and more attention to how I execute my builds and looking for minute differences in how I and the pros play. In these explorations, I discovered that I was consistently behind about 15 seconds where I could have been in dropping Barracks 2 and 3 and the first Refinery. I pored over many replays and went back to look at the tournament VoDs and the Day9 Daily that examined this build, and I discovered a crucial wrinkle (which is fascinating enough for me that it may warrant a future discussion post of its own): I was scouting with the SCV which builds Barracks #1. As it turns out, Bomber does not (most of the time) do this, especially in matches with well-known opponents. It further turned out upon testing that if you DO scout with the SCV that builds your first Barracks, it is actually impossible to hit the 4:00, 4:15, and 4:30 benchmarks for the next set of buildings (Rax, Rax, Refinery) that Bomber can perform (without cutting either SCVs or Marines). So, I investigated alternatives, tested several variations against AIs, and here are the results (the short version is found in the changes to the guide): 1. Scout with the SCV that builds the Barracks, OC + Marine on 15 supply. This is the safest way to play, while still getting a very early CC at the natural, as you scout very quickly (for modern TvP) and will have an excellent chance to see something fishy like early 2 gas and possible 4-gate or DTs. The downside is that without cutting army or economy production, it is impossible to get the smoothest follow-up of infrastructure, which is Barracks @~4:00, Barracks @~4:15, Refinery @~4:30. 2. Don't scout until after infrastructure spending is started, OC + Marine on 15 supply. This is a somewhat risky way to play. You have no specified scouting time, and you probably won't be able to sneak in an SCV to see something like DTs or a 4-gate coming unless you are a ninja. On the upside, you can hit all of the benchmarks for timing perfectly without missing a beat on SCVs, Depots, and Marines. 3. Scout with the SCV building the Barracks, making SCVs continuously to 16, and going OC on 17 supply after your Marine has started. This is the middle ground. You still get a quick scout off, enabling you to be fully prepared for cheese. Your initial Orbital is delayed a few seconds, but the natural CC is not delayed by any significant fraction and the extra SCV mining back home helps. The result of this is that your second Marine is delayed slightly longer because you need that second Depot before you start Marine #2 and SCVs again; however, you also get to very closely match the timings that are the ideal for Bomber. In testing, it usually worked out to something like a 1-5 second delay, with the general average you can shoot for being 2 seconds (so, Rax@4:02, Rax@4:17, and Refinery@4:32). I recommend option number 3 for the safety-conscious who also want the fastest possible Stim, Medivacs, and +1, while option #2 is obviously the true ideal execution of the build, but relies heavily on your knowledge that no shenanigans are heading your way. Thanks for making this guide such a hit and also helping to make it better every time you post feedback! | ||
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 26 2012 02:43 crow_mw wrote: @Jazzman88 - Doesn't going for OC at 17 force you to delay your second marine by a lot (like 20 seconds) if you don't want to stop SCV production? This obviously depends of whether your scout dies or not, but if it is still alive I find that I must start SCV (18) before marine (2). This in turn is a difference between having 2 marines and 3 when a zealot/stalker poke comes in (I run into this a lot). Yes, it does delay that Marine. However, the upside is that you get the faster double Barracks and Refinery while STILL getting a scout away and having a Bunker down on time. A Zealot/Stalker poke is rarely going to try and run past with a Bunker up and filled with some Marines, even if it's less than full, just because getting one or two SCVs is no compensation for losing all map control when the Zealot/Stalker get inevitably surrounded and killed. Think of it like this: the times when the difference between having 2 Marines and 3 Marines causes you to lose is FAR less than the times a lack of scouting or delayed buildings causes you to lose. You have the 2 Barracks 15 seconds earlier with scout after Barracks + 17 OC, which means that the spike in Marine production plus your Stim research time comes comparatively earlier. I will definitely accept the risk of having only 2 Marines in the Bunker when the Zealot/Stalker shows up as compensation for a faster timing on my tech plus quicker ramp-up in production. It's the same reason no one blind prepares for 6-pool anymore: it's such a coinflippy metagame build that auto-loses to a basic wall-in that no one needs to prepare for it unless it's a best-of-X with a particular dangerous and unpredictable Zerg player. I would run some tests against a Protoss player if you're unsure. Tell them to chrono out a Zealot/Stalker poke and move towards your natural. See how many times (and on what maps) it actually becomes a problem. The only time I have problems with Zealot/Stalker pokes is when I spawn close positions on Entombed Valley and the Protoss 9-scouts me, following which I delay my Bunker. It's VERY hard to take advantage of a 1-rax FE with your first couple of units assuming the Terran plays correctly, because the correct decision for Protoss is almost always to take map control and expand (the Terran can't force out the Stalker with anything short of 6+ Marines or Marauders because they get kited to death). Watch pro players play - control (positional, map, and army) is almost always valued much more highly than killing a small amount of workers and units. | ||
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CenturionSC2
United States51 Posts
If someone who is better TvP give me some advice on this would be great. =] | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
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