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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
- DT openings are becoming a little more common - given that a DT opening, sacrifices early pressure for sneak attack potential, 2nd Bunker is not necessary initially - if scouting early 2 gas with almost no Sentries and no Gateway swell, expect DTs to be possible - you can drop your E-bay as early as 5:30 in that case (or in any time between 5:30 and 6:30) without disrupting the build - build a prophylactic Turret in the natural and deflect with ease - go win (but SAVE SCANS just in case) | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 23 2012 07:47 freerolll wrote: I Realy love this build! Got me a 73% winrate vs toss on ladder in gold leaugue. I like to drop 1 medivac in main minderal line and atack with the other medivac up front at the nat if theere are no collusus its usualy a win. have been loosing vs DT,s and 4 gate's. But maybe thats because im not good at scouting. If you are having trouble with 4gates, try hiding an SCV on his side of the map and send him into the main at around 5:30-6:00; you should be able to get into his base if he's 4-gating, and if you see 4gates, just throw down 2 bunkers immediately. Also, with the build, you can actually just throw down 1-2 blind bunkers without messing up the timing of anything. For DTs, just make sure you've got a turret up at 7:30 every game. You'll never lose to DTs. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On June 28 2012 16:58 SC2John wrote: If you are having trouble with 4gates, try hiding an SCV on his side of the map and send him into the main at around 5:30-6:00; you should be able to get into his base if he's 4-gating, and if you see 4gates, just throw down 2 bunkers immediately. Also, with the build, you can actually just throw down 1-2 blind bunkers without messing up the timing of anything. For DTs, just make sure you've got a turret up at 7:30 every game. You'll never lose to DTs. This advice about 4-gate is very good. 4-gate is actually a very bad build against Terran, especially the higher you climb the ladder. The only variant that is even a little bit viable (in normal circumstances) is Prism 4-gate to Forcefield the natural ramp. And for DTs, I would further add that if you DON'T see double gas either on your 4-6 minute SCV pokes or whatever Scans you use during the same time, DTs are an impossibility. Getting Twilight Council and the Dark Shrine and the Gates plus the DT warp-in itself takes so much gas that you can't do it viably without taking that early gas. And if he does go for delayed DTs to do Chargelot/Archon, your push will do INSANE damage once you notice the DTs, Scan, and then walk over him because he doesn't have enough Sentries. | ||
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omar954
United States6 Posts
On June 25 2012 18:56 bmoneyAK wrote: Hi guys, Would the same advantages apply to using this is TvT? I like to 1 rax FE into 3 rax + medivac play in TvT. I control the watchtowers and if they go mech try and get a third before they do and force them to stay in base. I get combat shield first as well. I think that the faster potential third or ability to add on additional raxes sooner might work just as well in TVT. Is it me, or is this just a more efficient way to 1 rax FE into more bio in any matchup? I tihnk you need the extra gas because when I went combat shield first off this build i didnt have enough gas to imediately start factory/stim/upgrades. Also, in TvT you can pop down reactors a lot more quickly off 2 gas. The bio build i use in TvT is Thorzain's, so after the 1 rax CC: rax 2 gas (put 2 in ea gas) rax + ebay reactor on rax techlab on rax combast shield reactort on last gas put 3 in ea gas +1 factory starport/reactor get gas on expo The gas in this build works wonderfully | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 28 2012 23:57 Jazzman88 wrote: This advice about 4-gate is very good. 4-gate is actually a very bad build against Terran, especially the higher you climb the ladder. The only variant that is even a little bit viable (in normal circumstances) is Prism 4-gate to Forcefield the natural ramp. I might add the 6:30 delayed 3-4-gate with 3 sentries. In the past is was used as basically a stronger all-in, but terrans can generally handle it at the higher levels, so protosses have been using this timing to do some pressure damage in the early game while establishing their natural and getting tech up. Another variation is a 7:30 3-4-gate pressure, which is about the same, except slightly more economical and long-term focused. Again, something Bomber's build does EXCELLENTLY against. Wonderful, wonderful optimization of gas. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On July 01 2012 02:30 Thylacine wrote: What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this? yea watch vs squirtle on ohana. the allin squirtle is different, doesnt reinforce well but hit quicker without theromlance. for standardsaliins u need to scout it, get bunkers for the 10.30 that u already know, and u can either get vikings off 1 port, or get a 2nd one. if u opt to 2 starports and toss doesnt allin u but ends up getting upgrades and a 3rd u will have to allin him off 5 rax 2 ports with 12 vikings at around 13 minand hell most likely dies if he went naked colo then axpanded and teched | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 01 2012 02:30 Thylacine wrote: What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this? Think of it this way: In order to have 2 Colossus and that many units by 10:30, he is SO far behind in upgrades and a third base that ALL you need to do is hold. You need to drop a second Starport IMMEDIATELY upon scouting this (ideally you should Scan or scout this before that 10:00 mark - say between 8 and 9) and Bunker up the front while cranking out those Vikings. If he's not making his presence felt on the map because of your Medivacs, park a Marine near his front to spot the move-out. Load up a Medivac and drop his main the instant he moves out: the more he delays to ward off that sort of thing, the more Vikings you get and the farther behind his third base is. Don't be afraid to back up until you reach a position where the Vikings can strike at the Colossi without getting murdered by Stalkers. It will be tense, but if you hold without sacrificing your natural, you can win easily. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On July 01 2012 02:50 Jazzman88 wrote: Think of it this way: In order to have 2 Colossus and that many units by 10:30, he is SO far behind in upgrades and a third base that ALL you need to do is hold. You need to drop a second Starport IMMEDIATELY upon scouting this (ideally you should Scan or scout this before that 10:00 mark - say between 8 and 9) and Bunker up the front while cranking out those Vikings. If he's not making his presence felt on the map because of your Medivacs, park a Marine near his front to spot the move-out. Load up a Medivac and drop his main the instant he moves out: the more he delays to ward off that sort of thing, the more Vikings you get and the farther behind his third base is. Don't be afraid to back up until you reach a position where the Vikings can strike at the Colossi without getting murdered by Stalkers. It will be tense, but if you hold without sacrificing your natural, you can win easily. He added the 3rd at 11:00, not late at all. He had forge up I believe, too... Just played another game...and I have to say This build is extreme countered by HT rush, too. At 10:00 when I pushed I had a massive army but the guy had gateway + 6 hts = 6 storms and its just to much for the bio army, specially when its so friggin marine heavy. Might wanna add that into the ''Conditions section'' | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 01 2012 03:26 Thylacine wrote: He added the 3rd at 11:00, not late at all. He had forge up I believe, too... Just played another game...and I have to say This build is extreme countered by HT rush, too. At 10:00 when I pushed I had a massive army but the guy had gateway + 6 hts = 6 storms and its just to much for the bio army, specially when its so friggin marine heavy. Might wanna add that into the ''Conditions section'' Are you sure it's a build thing and not a unit control thing? I'd like to see the replays. If you look under the example games you'll see Bomber dealing with a VERY strong Colossi push and winning quite easily after that. Also, if you have your third started by 9:30 and his starts at 11:00, plus you scout the Colossi and make the right number of Vikings, you should still be ahead (because you WILL have 2 E-bays + Armory + 2nd Starport by now; he can't afford a relatively early third, quick Colossi, lots of Sentry/Stalker, AND all the upgrades he wants - there's just not enough gas on two bases for all of that). Was it one Forge or two you saw? If it's one, you're still way ahead. If it's two, but there's no Twilight yet, your army will be bigger and stay bigger and you'll still be even for now on ups. You just can't engage into bad positions. If you get there, and you see 6 Sentries and 2 Colossi and no third or a third just started, you can probably cancel the third with a quick stim in and then go home without facing his army, macroing up the whole time. Although the build is aggressive, there is NO way that you should throw away units just for the sake of attacking. Be intelligent about your engagements. In regards to High Templar, again, it's a matter of control. A quick High Templar play is not going to defend a third base very well in my opinion if he tried to take it as fast as yours. A very fast HT rush only gets storm JUST as you're getting to his base with the push the times I've seen it executed, so I would say that if you scout that happening before that period, you should be able to just GO. If he had time to research Storm and sink all of that gas into HTs with enough time for them to build up energy, his other army will be much weaker earlier on, and he may just die right there (he certainly won't be able to sustain a third even if he took it). Again, I'd love to see the replays to see exactly what went on and whether it IS an actual weak spot of the build, because that's important to know. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
About the HT part, he has no expansion but he is about to take one. He also had 1 ht and a few zealots in his base to prevent drops. Best thing to do there is just get 4th + ghost academy, but then the horror is that he might push and electrify my army in one second. And I saw 2 forges in the collosi game. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 01 2012 17:50 Thylacine wrote: I expand at like 10:45, that's my failure part. The problem has been that I try to end the game by adding even more raxes as I push and this just countered me, I should've expanded and won. About the HT part, he has no expansion but he is about to take one. He also had 1 ht and a few zealots in his base to prevent drops. Best thing to do there is just get 4th + ghost academy, but then the horror is that he might push and electrify my army in one second. And I saw 2 forges in the collosi game. Oh, okay. Hmm. I think you're absolutely correct that the correct expand timings should still have you ahead. It's remembering to be taking and securing that base while you move out that's the trick. I still stand by the opinion that if you see two forges and a bunch of gas units, he's probably only recently got the forges and you still should be about even with him. Yeah, fast High Templar are not so good for aggression in a solely Gateway army, because decent Terran players will bait at least some Storms while macroing out Ghosts back home as you saturate that third, and the Zealot/Stalker force doesn't engage efficiently enough with the bioball to lock it down for Storms to own it completely. I think in nearly all circumstances, no matter what your opponent is playing, expanding at that money time is crucial, and then playing from there with the hopeful macro edge. The 5 early Barracks plus the early 3rd really makes it tough for the Protoss to find a window where he can safely attack at all, and if he does realize that and go for an even faster third of his, he's going to be forced to be almost perfect with his defense in the midgame to not die immediately. | ||
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OneBaseKing
Afghanistan412 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 03 2012 13:16 OneBaseKing wrote: isn't this really similar to filtersc's build? Not having an encyclopedic knowledge of all builds ever published on TL, I'm not sure. However, I did check most current TvP build order guides before writing this particular one, so to the best of my knowledge, the topic hadn't been covered in this way or depth before. If you have another guide that covers similar stuff, please, let me know so I can link it into this one and give whatever credit is due. The reason this deserves its own guide in my opinion is that Bomber used this almost exclusively at the Red Bull Battlegrounds versus all the Protoss there, and with the exception of the finals match, absolutely crushed with it. It has been ladder tested since repeatedly by myself and many other Terran players with a fair degree of success. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On June 28 2012 16:58 SC2John wrote: If you are having trouble with 4gates, try hiding an SCV on his side of the map and send him into the main at around 5:30-6:00; you should be able to get into his base if he's 4-gating, and if you see 4gates, just throw down 2 bunkers immediately. Also, with the build, you can actually just throw down 1-2 blind bunkers without messing up the timing of anything. For DTs, just make sure you've got a turret up at 7:30 every game. You'll never lose to DTs. I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 04 2012 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote: I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30. 1-base DT is a super bad build, because you have 2 Orbitals, plus an E-bay down by that point. In addition, your scouting (from 5-6 minutes) will tell you if he's one-basing, in which case, the walled front will keep DTs out at the front (in general) and all you need is one Scan to put the Protoss SO far behind, and while you're dealing with that, you can get Missile Turrets up. Sometimes you might even throw down a security Scan in their base to see what the tech is, and if something seems fishy, drop the Missile Turrets down just to not die. Basically, if it's one-base DTs, the Protoss has to hope to get SUPER lucky by hitting right after you drop MULEs, or he loses (and he also loses if you have started pre-emptive Turrets as soon as you finish the E-bay). And with the 4-gate, your initial scouting should give you a hint: when the SCV is in the base, you'll see 1 gas, and lots of chrono saved on the Nexus. If he starts chronoing the Warp Gate research and doesn't drop that second gas, you should already be thinking about Bunker #2. A re-scout at 5-5:30 will confirm that it's 4-gate (with no expand), and you can safely pull a few SCVs in front of the Bunkers just to be secure (it won't affect you that much since you're already ahead in economy). I would also recommend patrolling one or two Marines on easy-to-access cliffs JUST in case it ends up being Warp Prism 4-gate. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2012 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote: I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30. 1) scouting at >>>>5:30<<<-6:00. I maintain that scouting earlier is a waste of a scout and forces you to waste a scan; if he ISNT going 4-gate, you can check his expansion, unit comp, and gases, maybe even get a poke into the main. 2) As you scout, you go through a checklist of: no expansion, no units at front, 4 GATES YAY!! 3) The scouting allows you to start a second and third bunker and pull SCVs to repair 4) The FIRST warp-in comes at 5:45...if they attack with the first wave, they lose...4-gate ALWAYS has to wait for the second warp in, 30 seconds later. And yes, you're right about the DTs (6:45 warp-in). Although, they don't typically arrive at your base until 7:00-7:15. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On July 04 2012 03:21 SC2John wrote: 1) scouting at >>>>5:30<<<-6:00. I maintain that scouting earlier is a waste of a scout and forces you to waste a scan; if he ISNT going 4-gate, you can check his expansion, unit comp, and gases, maybe even get a poke into the main. 2) As you scout, you go through a checklist of: no expansion, no units at front, 4 GATES YAY!! 3) The scouting allows you to start a second and third bunker and pull SCVs to repair 4) The FIRST warp-in comes at 5:45...if they attack with the first wave, they lose...4-gate ALWAYS has to wait for the second warp in, 30 seconds later. And yes, you're right about the DTs (6:45 warp-in). Although, they don't typically arrive at your base until 7:00-7:15. You can get the first warp from a 4gate at around ~5:22 if you are really sharp about it, and you can also get 1 base DT's warped before 6:00 IIRC | ||
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