EPT[G][D] Bomber's FE into 3-rax, 1-gas opening TvP - Page 3
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
(Or with anything for that matter ;; ) | ||
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yep
Canada9 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On June 09 2012 14:27 yep wrote: Actually your 3rd CC timing is about the same as if you go standard 1rax expo into 3 rax. The main point of this build is you get a bit more mineral income by getting a late 2nd gaz which then allow you to take a +2rax at 8:30. As Bomber did, you can also get you're 3rd at 8:30 instead of the +2rax, so you can even get your 3rd quicker than the regular build. The difference is with the standard build you have concussive shell and combat shield when you make your 1st push. With this build you can either get a faster 3rd or +2rax sooner than the standard build, so its just about getting less gas for more mineral. Personnally, since I don't believe in ending the game with this push I prefer getting a fast 3rd at 8:30 and the push I make is to delay his 3rd, scouting for which tech path the protoss went for. Absolutely. It's an 'optimization' rather than a radically different build. You shouldn't assume this will end them, and playing with the macro edge in your back pocket is a great way to play. And regarding the 'Squirtle timing'... it is possible to beat it. In the Ohana game during the Bomber/Squirtle series from Red Bull Battlegrounds, Bomber does manage to hold it by scouting it barely in time, dropping 2 extra Bunkers, and being patient until he can obliterate the Colossi with a quick push. A key thing he does is drop his Factory on the Protoss third, forcing the Protoss to either: auto-lose after failing the all-in due to no third for him and a third for you; or, crush you right there. It's a knife's edge, because the Colossi are VERY scary, but with the right positioning and quick decision making, it can be done. | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 09 2012 15:52 VPCursed wrote: as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT As long as the things are listed in order, shouldn't it be fine anyway? | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
On June 09 2012 16:18 Fencer710 wrote: As long as the things are listed in order, shouldn't it be fine anyway? its much easier to remember it the way im suggesting... and overall it's a just a much better way to think about your build order.. because it reminds you to be optimal and not cut corners if something weird happens to get the tech out faster than it should | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On June 09 2012 16:41 VPCursed wrote: its much easier to remember it the way im suggesting... and overall it's a just a much better way to think about your build order.. because it reminds you to be optimal and not cut corners if something weird happens to get the tech out faster than it should Well, I see your point, but what I was trying to illustrate was in the top execution of pros performing this build, what is the time that various things occur at? I think it's REALLY important to know that IF you don't get messed with and you HAVEN'T decided to start 2 extra Barracks or your third by 8:30, you're doing something WRONG, and that needs to be fixed. I would hope that people understand that all of the timestamps apply to ideal execution. Actually, that's important enough to warrant this statement (and I'll actually edit something like that into the OP): If something happens that severely messes up the build (i.e. a 4-gate or Voidray attack), you should disregard the original timestamps and attempt to rely solely on the order. And I think it's wrong to suggest that you are always 'better' by thinking about simple ordering. While it's true that you shouldn't be worried about being off by 3 or 5 seconds in either direction, it is VERY important to know what sort of timings you should be aiming for (hence the use of approximate timestamps in my build order). If the timings bother you, all I can say is that you should feel free to ignore them and experiment with your own. However, I can affirm that the timings I have listed will very much get you the optimized build, as long as you're shooting for a rough approximation of them. And yes, it's important to not try to exactly arrive at the times listed if you encounter obstacles like attacks or harassment. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On June 09 2012 15:52 VPCursed wrote: Having a general timeframe of when something should be happening is far from a bad thing.....especially considering builds like this have optimized timings for a reason. If your very late then you know your macro is off, and if your early you are probably cutting to much. Obviously you need to be flexible ingame if you see opportunity to be greedy or need to defend an attack , but for learning a build saying timestamps are bad is retarded. as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT The OP with timestamps is a lot easier to give a first look over and have general understanding of whats happening, vs a blank sheet like this + Show Spoiler + Depot Rax CC Barracks, Barracks Refinery Refinery as TL completes/Stim starts Factory + Engineering Bay Refinery @ E-bay complete Starport + Reactor Barracks add-ons Barracks, Barracks Refinery 3rd CC Expecting someone to comprehend and be able to practice the build with zero benchmarks is ridiculous. Obviously you should be watching the replays, thats a visual reinforcement of what you just read. | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
On June 10 2012 04:32 uSnAmplified wrote: Having a general timeframe of when something should be happening is far from a bad thing.....especially considering builds like this have optimized timings for a reason. If your very late then you know your macro is off, and if your early you are probably cutting to much. Obviously you need to be flexible ingame if you see opportunity to be greedy or need to defend an attack , but for learning a build saying timestamps are bad is retarded. The OP with timestamps is a lot easier to give a first look over and have general understanding of whats happening, vs a blank sheet like this + Show Spoiler + Depot Rax CC Barracks, Barracks Refinery Refinery as TL completes/Stim starts Factory + Engineering Bay Refinery @ E-bay complete Starport + Reactor Barracks add-ons Barracks, Barracks Refinery 3rd CC Expecting someone to comprehend and be able to practice the build with zero benchmarks is ridiculous. Obviously you should be watching the replays, thats a visual reinforcement of what you just read. well, the process i was explaining was that.. you're going to hit those timings just as fast cause these are the rules all pro's live by when it comes to executing their builds... however there is important things to watch-out for like a player who intentionally cuts units or scvs to get tech or upgrades faster... that's something I would keep note of.. the time stamps I guess would help lower players understand where they should be at certain points and maybe thats something I overlooked when i was explaining my thought process... but if people are having trouble with that they should be focusing on just macroing vs computer doing these build orders till they get it perfect : ) | ||
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Deleted User 255289
281 Posts
This delays tech, but what are the advantages compared to regular double gas? | ||
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Saiton
Sweden467 Posts
On June 11 2012 15:38 superbarnie wrote: So, the main difference is that the 2nd gas is delayed. This delays tech, but what are the advantages compared to regular double gas? Day9 explains this very well in his daily on the build. When you delay a gas you're gaining about 120 extra minerals per minute(40 per minute SCV going into gas) and by delaying it you're going to have that extra set of money for the barracks at 8:30 and to take a relatively early third(depending on what you see of course) | ||
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liorv
3 Posts
I feel a particular weakness when using this build vs. toss is the inability I have to deal with DTs. Perhaps the problem is actually just that I fail to understand the correct reaction to DTs, but basically, I know that in MY BEST execution of this build, in YABOT, I can get around 100 supply at 10 minutes (compared to Bombers 102), and around 116 supply (compared to Bombers 122)... my ebay gets put down between 6:35 and 6:48 and my my first turret is NEVER ready for DTs... as the ebay finishes around 7ish BEST CASE, the turret needs another 25 or so seconds?... DTs can hit as early as 6:50... in one game, I happened to have a scan,,.. AND I saw the DT blur in the doorway... AND I had 2 bunkers... I scanned and killed the first 3... but I didn't have the scan for the 2nd warp-in... and my wall wasn't done... he massacred my main, and I felt saving 2 scans is too much for future games. Can someone please recount how to deal with DTs... my current thoughts are: 1) scout 2 gas early and suspect DTs if wall-in... do I put down ebay sooner ? 2) focus on faster natural wall in ? 3) save 2 scans ? 4) react better dropping turret at main also if spot DTs... (unlikely) 5) how do I move out to punish once DT threat stopped with no ravens ? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On June 12 2012 07:16 liorv wrote: summary: need help dealing with DTs using Bomber's build I feel a particular weakness when using this build vs. toss is the inability I have to deal with DTs. Perhaps the problem is actually just that I fail to understand the correct reaction to DTs, but basically, I know that in MY BEST execution of this build, in YABOT, I can get around 100 supply at 10 minutes (compared to Bombers 102), and around 116 supply (compared to Bombers 122)... my ebay gets put down between 6:35 and 6:48 and my my first turret is NEVER ready for DTs... as the ebay finishes around 7ish BEST CASE, the turret needs another 25 or so seconds?... DTs can hit as early as 6:50... in one game, I happened to have a scan,,.. AND I saw the DT blur in the doorway... AND I had 2 bunkers... I scanned and killed the first 3... but I didn't have the scan for the 2nd warp-in... and my wall wasn't done... he massacred my main, and I felt saving 2 scans is too much for future games. Can someone please recount how to deal with DTs... DTs are a general soft spot for many 1-rax FE builds. You must scout aggressively. Ideally, you need to spot the early Twilight Council. In general, I like to scan the Protoss base if I have no additional information by about 6:15-6:30. If you saw an early 2 gas, and a scan at 6:30 reveals the following: EITHER 1. Twilight Council NOT researching anything. 2. Delayed Warp Gates with few gas units. You can assume that DTs MAY be incoming. The logic behind this is that if he's going DTs, he needs a LOT of gas to get Twilight AND Dark Shrine AND have enough for DTs to do damage (even more is required if he wants to go Prism/DT), so low Sentry count plus delayed Gateways AFTER seeing 2 gas early means he has a lot of gas that you DON'T see involved in his units. He's either terrible (in which case banking a scan/building Turrets isn't bad) or going uber fast tech. Bank a scan, and wait for a typical DT timing at 7-8 minutes. If that doesn't come, in the immortal words of Day9, 'just go fucking kill him'. Really, it comes down to scouting, scouting, scouting. Doing those aggressive scouting maneuvers will start to teach you the game sense to predict DTs after seeing a specific set of opening moves by Protoss. DTs are complete shit if scouted and prepared for properly. | ||
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ahuang
United States13 Posts
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HARDQORE
Germany10 Posts
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ArnO-
United States258 Posts
On June 13 2012 09:30 ahuang wrote: During the push with medivacs at 10 minutes, is it better to simply attack the front with all your forces and micro by kiting and lifting units trapped by forcefields? Are there situations where its better to try and drop the main and poke the front simultaneously? If the protoss didn't leave any stalkers in his main then you want to drop in the main. You can also check to see how the protoss layed out his base, Some tosses have really bad building placements and their gateways can make it difficult to pull units back deep into their main because the gateways and tech buildings cause mini chokes. Or if they have too many units sitting in their main and a smallish amount at their nat then run into the nat and kite, when he pulls his units back from his main to his natural to help defend you then drop the main with what you can. Also if they took a really fast third then I think its better to keep poking aroud looking for an opening since three bases is much harder to properly defend without a large army then just two especially when you have 4 medivacs out with 5 rax rallied to their side of the map. So its really situational and depending on how the game is flowing and what the protoss is doing. | ||
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ahuang
United States13 Posts
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MapleFractal
Canada307 Posts
glhf | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On June 13 2012 11:22 ArnO- wrote: If the protoss didn't leave any stalkers in his main then you want to drop in the main. You can also check to see how the protoss layed out his base, Some tosses have really bad building placements and their gateways can make it difficult to pull units back deep into their main because the gateways and tech buildings cause mini chokes. Or if they have too many units sitting in their main and a smallish amount at their nat then run into the nat and kite, when he pulls his units back from his main to his natural to help defend you then drop the main with what you can. Also if they took a really fast third then I think its better to keep poking aroud looking for an opening since three bases is much harder to properly defend without a large army then just two especially when you have 4 medivacs out with 5 rax rallied to their side of the map. So its really situational and depending on how the game is flowing and what the protoss is doing. In addition, if he's trying to get his third up, I recommend checking his army size with the Factory. If you're not sure whether you can take it, wait for Medivacs 3 and 4, and then deny that third. As he comes to save said base, load up one or two Medivacs and drop his main (you can pre-load and start moving out as soon as you start attacking the third base. Most Protoss will be unable to resist the temptation to try and trap you as you move into the area of the third base. Then they get crunched by a drop that kills half of their tech. | ||
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